Older Brass Locomotives, Detail and Value

Asking and selling are two very different things. I have 6 Williams brass and a number of other older brass locos, all simple conventional locos, I bought for MUCH less than modern current MTH or Lionel locos. Detail does vary from OK to fantastic....but I like them all. 

PS...my Lionel Dryfuss was about $225 delivered.....it had a loose side rod which I fixed myself.

To be fair, the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfus Hudson set offered at $8,500 includes 13 beautifully detailed and painted cars. 

For one thing, there is no "plastic" steam to speak of, other than the Atlas 0-6-0.     That has a reputation for being a horrible runner.

As for Diecast, so far most of it has many compromises that do appeal to more prototypical modelers.   

The brass from the 60s on is as detailed as the newest 3 rail diecast in my opinion.    That is US Hobbies, Sunset, NJCB, Westside, etc.    Precision Scale also has done a lot of brass.     The details are all lost wax castings and added on as on prototypes, not cast into the boiler.    The thickness of things like running boards, window frames, tender sideboards etc are more prototypical.   

And finally the brass has traditionally been done in short runs of maybe 100-200 of very specific models.    They don't take one model paint if 47 different ways.    The models are generally based on specific prototypes for specific RRs.    The short runs were/are possible because the units are fabricated by hand with jigs and fixtures.    there is very little tooling cost as opposed to plastic and diecast.

So if you model in in 2 rail and want good looking steam, brass is a good way to go. 

However, as an old timer, in my  opinion brass has also come down in price.    Pieces that sold for 7-800 5  years ago are coming down to 600 in some cases.      Many of the Older US HObbies pieces were getting close to 1000 some  years ago and have dropped considerably since.    I recently bought a "new" (never been run) USH Hobbies PRR 2-10-0 for 475.   The Sunset PRR 2-10-2 that came in MSRP around 1000 somewhat more recently regularly appears for 7-800 too.   

The Kohs stuff is still listed at very high prices and as you say is the Lionel Smithsonian Dryfuss.   Those prices do seem high.    But as mentioned above, if only 100 were produced, they are somewhat rare.    Also, in the case of Kohs models and probably the Dreyfuss, the detail is museum quality.    they are aimed more for display than operation.  

Prices/Asking/Selling are all in the eye of the beholder. Years ago, brass models were feature rich with lots of add on details, very beautifully designed, simply out of this world in looks. Looks only. When Lionel introduced railsounds, or what became TMCC/Legacy command, this changed many things. To me, the command way of operating trains lured me into Lionel Scale...Then it became better over the years and now Legacy, VisionLine Quality, etc....I would rather pay $1250 for a VisionLine GG1 than a Williams brass GG1, that's just an example, Williams may have never made one...Yes, the newer plastic is nice.  Now, Lionel is playing with a brass hybrid heavy mikado Locomotive.We will see where this leads us...Good post. I hope there will be a lot of responses...

B Smith posted:

To be fair, the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfus Hudson set offered at $8,500 includes 13 beautifully detailed and painted cars. 

True....but the $1600 one offered I doubt will sell either......nor will the $8500 one....even with cars. 

The smithsonian dreyfus cars and engine mentioned above are very nice.

Each car produced on this run matches the blue print for each individual NYC car in real life, this also includes all the appliances under the car.   The diaphragms on these cars have to be seen to believe.  I would argue that each of these cars have as much if not more detail than the modern high end steam engines.

TexasSP posted:

Was looking at Brass on ebay out of curiosity and am a bit surprised by the asking prices for older brass which even lacks the detail of modern die-cast/plastic.

Is the market really out there for this stuff or is this typical fantasy ebay prices?  I see someone has a Smithsonian Lionel Dreyfuss Hudson listed for 8500 too, which I would go near for a tenth of that price.

I can somewhat get postwar nostalgia for exceptional pieces, but the price for this old brass shocks me.  Even some of the freight pricing is wild, again some is very nice but some is not any better than plastic being offered today.  Then there's the inter-modal brass from Pecos and others which I can't figure how the prices would be so high.

I am just curious everyone's thoughts and experiences here.  Maybe I am missing something.  Only brass O I know is the modern 3rd rail stuff.

My idea of older brass is Max Gray and LMB Models; refreshingly overpowered and made in Japan.

And note here that Kohs made the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfus.  We sat together on a trip to Korea many years ago.  Lots to talk about on a 12 hour plane ride.

Lou N

We will see what happens with the new Lionel creation....in 3 rail about the only way to get a prototype not done to death is 3rd Rail, if they can get enough pre-orders. (and several attempts have been slept through)

Suppose you were willing to pay $1200 for the Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfus Hudson by itself (which doesn't seem out of line with current prices), then the 13 cars would be about $562 apiece. If you think the engine is fairly valued at $1500, then the cars come down to about $538 apiece. If the engine is valued at $2,000 (the price of recent Sunset articulated locomotives), then the cars are $500 each. If someone truly wants a beautiful model of this train for display (or even for operation), then this doesn't seem to me outlandish, considering the level of detail and quality of finish. I'm not suggesting that anyone should mortgage his house to make the purchase, but if you can afford it, then it it seems to me you are getting something pretty remarkable at a "reasonable" price.

"For one thing, there is no "plastic" steam to speak of, other than the Atlas 0-6-0.     That has a reputation for being a horrible runner."

My Atlas 0-6-0 was die-cast zinc.

I sold it because it was a terrible little thing.

======

Brass locos typically have at least some 2-rail DNA in them (sometimes too much, and they don't settle-in well to the Hi-Rail world) so, more often than not, their gearing is superior (that is, they can run slower) and act less like toys and more like models. Even some high-end die-cast "pure" 3RO locos have gearing that is just...not great.

Due to construction techniques, brass locos can more often than modern die-cast be repaired and/or modified. They are accessible to the owner.

I like them - some are good products, some are not, just like the die-cast/plastic items - and the detail level is usually more than enough to meet my needs. Too much tiny detail on a heavy O loco can make them too tedious to handle.

My personal detail "standard" is: simplified is acceptable, wrong is not.   

FWIW the Williams Masterpice Dreyfus is identical to the Lionel 3 rail Smithsonian Dreyfus save the electronics. Its nice engine especially for its time but I would give the edge to the 3rd Rail Dreyfus for detail. 

I paid 400 bucks for my Williams Masterpiece. Lionel's engine has the reputation which may make it more valuble to some. 

As pointed out above the $8500 for the set is based on the inclusion of the cars, many of which are still in their unopened boxes or TCA mint.

Pete

I suppose it all depends on what  counts to you individually.  My very limited experience might be as follows.

Todays High end engine's are out of my price range, no big deal, it is what it is.  I like PRR K4's.  The new Lionel K4 with long haul tender is great, I'd be happy to have one.  I also wanted to buy the earlier Lionel Legacy K4's with Whistle smoke etc, but even then I just couldn't see making that reach.  But I kept wanting and finally picked up the Tuscan version for about $550 on a Thanksgiving blowout from one of our forum dealers.  I love the engine, the sounds, and the smoke, but I don't run it much mostly because I still use a postwar ZW.  Eventually I'll make some changes but that's where I sit.  Along the way, I've managed to pick up two Williams Brass K4's off ebay on Buy it now for $139 and $75.  Both had failed reverse boards.  I thought they were both a bargin.  The Williams brass engine's are pretty nice as AMC Daves pictures above attest.  They could also benefit from some more detailing though.  The Williams engine's also suffer from some dimensional changes to help them work on three rail track but again, but you can find stuff wrong with pretty much all mfr's engines.  I've also picked up some really old (1930's) Scale-craft K4's.  I have two of them, they were kits and so build quality determines how nice they are.  They are certainly not up to todays standards as far as detail is concerned.  I think I paid about $150 for each of them.  Now I'd like to pick up a nice KTM/USH/Max Gray K4 and I should be able to do that for $350-500 based on what I see around.   You could easily spend a few hundred bucks and add a cruise commander, Sounds, and a super chuffer and bring any of these older engine's to a more modern standard.

I like all of these engine's to me they all have a unique charm.

All these engine's have their flaws, ALL of them, even the new ones...  It's more a matter of which of those flaws can you stomach or ignore or in some guys cases, just not notice because they don't know any better.

I guess back to your original question.  I don't really think old brass in general is currently priced overly high based on my own limited experience.  I do think it may be unreasonable to compare a new top of the line loco to a 50-60 year old brass top of the line loco.  Kind of like comparing a new  5.0 mustang to a 68 428 CJ mustang.  The new one is easier to drive, better mileage, etc, etc, but I sure wouldn't kick a 68 428CJ mustang out of my garage.  The point is, the new one sure ought to be able to kick the crap out of the old one.  If it can't, if the old one can still put up a good fight or if the old one somehow comes out on top.... well, then you have your answer.

A year ago I picked up a Weaver Brass M1a Mountain great shape and nice detail. It was at an estate sale and the price was low enough have Alex Mallae do a full ERR and Super-Chuff upgrade. I also had it professionally weathered by Harry Hieke Its smooth and one of my favorites.

This past York I picked up a Williams Bras Challenger and it currently with Alex on the same ERR and Super-Chuff upgrade

The Lionel brass/diecast hybrid model has a couple of issues for me personally.   First, it is a USRA heavy mike (I read that someplace).    My RR of choice did not have these at all - - period.    So right there I have no interest no matter how good it looks.    Second, it is 3 rail and  I am in 2 rail.   It is a chore to convert a diesel to 2 rail, it is a very big chore to convert a steamer from 3 to 2 rail and is beyond my skill set.    So I could not run it on my layout.  

Generally I don't think too many USRA heavies were built.   A lot of RRs had USRA Light mikes or later copies, but I think a much smaller group had USRA Heavies.     So this particular model may not be of major interest to a lot of serious modeler

I wonder why they chose hybrid construction.    There must be a good business reason.

prrjim posted:

 

I wonder why they chose hybrid construction.    There must be a good business reason.

Keep tooling cost down for the number they expect to build.  Fabricated parts for a small run is much cheaper than cast.....the hybrid can use the best of both worlds to their advantage. 

prrjim posted:

The Lionel brass/diecast hybrid model has a couple of issues for me personally.   First, it is a USRA heavy mike (I read that someplace).    My RR of choice did not have these at all - - period.    So right there I have no interest no matter how good it looks.    Second, it is 3 rail and  I am in 2 rail.   It is a chore to convert a diesel to 2 rail, it is a very big chore to convert a steamer from 3 to 2 rail and is beyond my skill set.    So I could not run it on my layout.  

Generally I don't think too many USRA heavies were built.   A lot of RRs had USRA Light mikes or later copies, but I think a much smaller group had USRA Heavies.     So this particular model may not be of major interest to a lot of serious modeler

I wonder why they chose hybrid construction.    There must be a good business reason.

The brass body is not a USRA Heavy Mike. Lionel used the frame of their USRA heavy mike and mounted the SF Mike body to it. Santa Fe fans can better comment on how close a USRA  Mike drive  is to the Santa Fe engine.

Pete

Lionel had this new model debut at the past April York meet. I told my friends that I was not a player for this Model, however, the more I looked at this beauty, the detail was really unparalleled to other steam locomotive offerings, and after I actually ran the Locomotive with my IPhone, well, I ordered the #3222 Sante Fe.  I do Model anything ever made, as my model railroad utilizes backward compatibility. I think I will like WiFi operation....The Lionel Sales Ladies were helpful during the ordering process...Dave was there to answer questions and Ryan was there to assist to.. I am into three rail, and I am happy to see Lionel moving the Goal Post Forward, so to speak.  

2 Rail Brass is whole different playing field.  Tough to compare it to 3 rail scale trains. 

Some of the brass items are hard to find and live in a different collectabity relm. 

I am fortunate enough to have plenty of scale items that are good enough for operating to stay out of that market. 

What Lionel is making IS NOT a brass scale locomotive.  Its is a happy medium to introduce new items and reduce the tooling cost, and I believe it will do well. 

I bought one too.

Much of Weaver, Williams and 3rd Rail brass from the 90's can actually be obtained for reasonable money. There are some from the first two, though, that have maintained a high value due to low quantities and sufficient demand. The streamlined Southern PS4 Tennessean by Weaver is one that has stayed pretty high.

As D500 and Steve have said, as well as Norm Charbonneau, these engines are pretty fun to tinker and repair. I've done a couple already for friends, and must admit the detail and overall construction design is better in many ways than a lot of the same era or even current die cast. And yes, the gear ratios tend to be more scale oriented. Many of Lionel's late 90's/early 00's locos ran more like a postwar steam engine, at least as is before an ERR Cruise M goes into them.

And don't forget Right of Way brass locomotives which cost big money in the early 1990s and now can be had for one quarter to one third of their original price.  Of course they weren't compatible with DCS or TMCC, but as a conventional operator I could care less. I now have six brass ROW's  all purchased within the past few years at very reasonable prices.  They run well, and frankly I  like their C&O 2-6-6-2 whistle better than the one scale MTH steamer I own.

lewrail

lewrail posted:

I now have six brass ROW's  all purchased within the past few years at very reasonable prices.  They run well, and frankly I  like their C&O 2-6-6-2 whistle better than the one scale MTH steamer I own.

 

lewrail

Thanks; glad you liked the whistle.  That was the first onboard digital sound system for a model train.

Lou N

A couple of data points:  several decades ago, the early Japanese brass imports peaked.  A very nice Max Gray SP AC-4 sold for $4000.  That same locomotive today brings just over a grand.  Same with the similar AC-9.

Some early imports are quite good - the two above and the SP Mountain were superb.  Almost all IMP is junk in comparison.  And the Max Gray AC-12 was a disaster - USH fixed it, and those are now also around a grand.

Sunset, and 3rd Rail, has done a superb job on most brass steam, and their quality and price have had a downward effect on brass prices for 1960/70 brass imports.

And finally, be aware that from about 1980 onward the move was toward extremely high level of detail, at the expense of running qualities and maintainability.  Some of the early high end stuff is delicate, poorly soldered, and will run only tens of feet before self-destruct.

I have not seen the Smithsonian Hudson, but seriously doubt it is a Williams in a Lionel box.  And I think it was 2-rail.

bob2 posted:

 

I have not seen the Smithsonian Hudson, but seriously doubt it is a Williams in a Lionel box.  And I think it was 2-rail.

The Lionel Smithsonian Dreyfuss was made after the Williams standard Dreyfuss but before The Williams Masterpiece Dreyfuss. The Williams standard model has little detail and aparently from threads posted here not well made. The Smithsonian and Masterpiece models were made by the same builder  within a year of each other.

Williams Standard:

Williams Masterpiece:

Lionel Smithsonian:

For comparison, the 3rd Rail Dreyfuss:

Pete

Yep. Different, and 2-rail.  I do have a Williams boiler on a scratch mechanism, and am happy with it.

Brass engines seem to be lighter then cast. I never ran brass but have a question for those that do. How is their traction? I would imagine some lead weights need to be added.

You're right, most fabricated brass locos need additional weight, which is usually added in the form of a cylindrical or semi-cylindrical hunk of lead mounted inside the boiler. Placement of the weight can also be a factor, especially in a model of an articulated locomotive.