Older lighted cars on 18V DCS

You can swap the bulbs out for 18V bulbs, but if you're going to open them up for that, I strongly recommend the LED upgrade.  Solves the problem, gives you much more even flicker-free lighting, and drops the power consumption about 90-95%.

Mr.Bill posted:

Other than LED swaps, is there any advice on what to do run these lighted but no burn out the bulbs?  Should I run them on a loop with a variable voltage that is turned down?  I am just running these around the tree and I typically run slow trains.  So even 12V should be ok if DCS will run on it.

DCS will run on 12V or even lower if even 12V is too bright on the cars.  DCS signal reliability is better if that "variable voltage" is from a pure sine controller like a Z4000 rather than a chopped sine controller like the Z500/750/1000.  But since your layout is just around a tree and you're going slowly, it ought to be fine with just about any 12V supply.  The later PS2 (so-called 3V) and all PS3 engines also run on 12V DC if that's all you have for 12V.

While the Williams and K-Line might be okay with different light bulbs installed I would not recommend Lionel lighted cabooses in a DCS or TMCC mode. I had one burn up the truck assembly at the center roller; Lionel # 17605, melted the plastic at center roller right off it.

Lee Fritz

Think LED lighting.   Ultra low current, no roller damage.

As Gunrunnerjohn said think lower power consumption with LEDs. That said, you can look at the conversion kits via Hennings trains.

Or, go with 18v lamps. There are even some ready made 18v led lamps that will replace what's in there now.

Or you can lower the voltage by using a DCS Variable terminal more suitable for those bulbs in the cars now.  Most are probably 14's. Or if you are using a transformer that varies the power, you can use a DCS fixed input, and regulate the power the DCS receives by adjusting the voltage to 13-14 volts. This is the easiest if you can do it this way.

One easy way to drop the voltage is with a series diode in the track pickup line, this will chop it basically in half, that should solve the problem.

Mr.Bill posted:

I was given a slew of older lighted cars from Williams and Kline that seem to be pre 2000s era made.  Thus, the lights do not seem to be designed for constant 18V.  I ran the Kline cars for a bit, only to burn out the lights in several of the cars.  The Williams cars are very very bright, so I have not run them yet.  I will probably have to pull the bulbs.  

Other than LED swaps, is there any advice on what to do run these lighted but no burn out the bulbs?  Should I run them on a loop with a variable voltage that is turned down?  I am just running these around the tree and I typically run slow trains.  So even 12V should be ok if DCS will run on it.

Bill

Mr Cheapskate says find a 6V automotive taillight bulb,put in series with lights  hide it someplace where it won't be seen but gets some air for cooling

Mr Cheapskate says find a 6V automotive taillight bulb,put in series with lights hide it someplace where it won't be seen but gets some air for cooling

DCS should run fine with 12 volts on the rails.

Mr Bil,

   I definitely agree with Guns, replace the old bulbs with LED's, they work great and draw minimal power.  I have been replacing mine a little at a time for quite a while now.

PCRR/Dave

You can get 24volt bulbs at this vendor.  They may give a nice glow and last longer.

http://www.autolumination.com/trainbulbs.htm

I replaced all those hot WIlliams bulbs with LED strips, to avoid bright spots and overheating the cars, since I run command control with 18 volts on the track.

You do not HAVE to run 18 volts on the track with DCS. By far the easiest solution for the OP is just turn the voltage down!

Somehow this 18 volts on the track thing got started way back when DCS was first released and has just stuck. DCS will work just fine at lower voltages and the locomotives run well, there, too. Top speed may be limited by the lower voltage, but unless you want to run all your trains at 90 mph, that doesn't matter.

No kidding Rich, I already said that.

DCS starts getting spotty when voltage applied to track is down to about 13 volts.  Run a few locos and lighted cars, and then read track voltage as reported by the loco.  There will usually be a difference between applied and read voltage.

I have one running behind me on a 50' loop of track, the Z4000 powering it is set to 12.0 volts.  It's running just fine, including the smoke function.  It is not pulling lighted cars, but rather my track cleaning car.

GRJ,  I've found that if I get down to about 13 volts applied, some of my steamers starting going into the loud chuff mode, which to me indicates that the speed control is nearing its limits of providing motor power and that that is what is triggering the change in sounds.  When I start running multiple trains on a "loop" with lighted cars, I find noticeable voltage drop at the far ends of the layout (25-30') even though I use 14 gauge wire and relatively short blocks of Gargraves 36" track.  I do agree 18 could be cut down a bit, as webmaster says.

I suspect if I cranked up the throttle a bit it would probably have a problem.  At slow speeds it seemed fine.  I put the Z4000 away or I'd try it.

For now, I will go the cheap method and run the variable power down to 12VAC.

Mr.Bill posted:

For now, I will go the cheap method and run the variable power down to 12VAC.

Seems like running at 12VAC would lower the impact of sparking too. 

There are a number of good ideas here.  I have an older set of Williams passenger cars too.  Years ago I changed out the 12v bulbs with 18v bulbs.  

Tony

OGR Webmaster posted:

You do not HAVE to run 18 volts on the track with DCS. By far the easiest solution for the OP is just turn the voltage down!

Somehow this 18 volts on the track thing got started way back when DCS was first released and has just stuck. DCS will work just fine at lower voltages and the locomotives run well, there, too. Top speed may be limited by the lower voltage, but unless you want to run all your trains at 90 mph, that doesn't matter.

Ugh, I am using MTH Z-1000 power bricks...I cannot lower volts on those, unless I install a transformer, correct?

OK. Mr cheapskate says: a 6 volt auto headlight draws about 7 amps on low beam,that should be ok for the brick. If you have a place to put the headlight,so the light and heat are safely dissipated you are in good shape for about $10.00

Not necessarily relevant to the OP's situation of dimming bulbs when slowly running an engine around a tree, but there are at least 2 reasons why you might want to use the "full" command voltage.

1) Many train transformers and/or their respective circuit protection breakers limit current to, say, 10 Amps.  So by running at 12V AC vs. 18V AC you only have 120 VA (a.k.a. Watts) on the track rather than 180 VA.  Those extra 60 VA can be significant if running multiple engines, pulling lots of cars, etc.

2) Transformer-to-engine track and wiring resistance drops voltage proportional to current.  Modern engines such as DCS efficiently convert higher track voltages down to the required internal voltages.  So let's say an engine needs 36 VA to run, blow smoke, play sounds, etc..  With 18V at the engine pickups, the current is 2 Amps (18V x 2A = 36 VA).  With 12V at the engine pickups, the current is 3 Amps (12V x 3A = 36VA).  Let's say there's 1 ohm of resistance in the wiring, track, bad joints, whatever.  That's 2V of drop vs. 3V of drop meaning that much more voltage needed back at the transformer when operating at the lower voltage.  And thru that resistance, 9 Watts is wasted as heat at 12V vs. only 4 Watts at 18V.  There's a reason power companies run transmission lines at high voltages!

2) likely explains what RJR reports about DCS track voltage readings at lower track voltages.  That is, the same DCS engine running at the same speed draws about 1.5 times more current at 12V than 18V.  The means more voltage drop from transformer to engine.  Even with unlimited current available, the additional voltage drop further limits the top DC motor speed.

If they are bayonet type bulbs another alternative is the #1819 bulb. Its 28volts but at 18 volts it only consumes 25 ma. Almost the same as an LED.

Here's a link for 18-volt LEDs to replace those bulbs.  I use them in Lionel 022 switch controllers on the layout I built for my grandson.  Go right into existing sockets.  While pricey, cost is commensurate with rewiring car and adding voltage regulator.

http://stores.towncountryhobbies.com/leds/

Gary E posted:

If they are bayonet type bulbs another alternative is the #1819 bulb. Its 28volts but at 18 volts it only consumes 25 ma. Almost the same as an LED.

However, it's pretty dim at 18 volts.

Bill I have bauonet base 18V and 24V light bulbs that I have used in my old passenger cars.  The 24V give a nice soft light to the car windows - which I prefer.  Price is $3 for 12.  The Lionel cars took 4 per car.  Thanks Bruce Clark Detroit, MI area

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Gary E posted:

If they are bayonet type bulbs another alternative is the #1819 bulb. Its 28volts but at 18 volts it only consumes 25 ma. Almost the same as an LED.

However, it's pretty dim at 18 volts.

Exactly! Looks more prototypical.

Remember Gary, when I run the entire strip of LED's at a nice prototypical brightness, I'm using a total of around 25ma.  However, I'm getting even flicker-free light throughout the car, not just a couple of hotspots.

If you're going thru the trouble of opening up the car, and converting bayonet lamps to bayonet LEDs, I've shown this crazy idea before.  Take a burned out bayonet lamp and (carefully) remove the guts.  Attach two wires.  Take the 2 wires and run them to the Hennings LED module with the LED light strips.  This way you get uniform/smooth LED lighting from a dozen plus LEDs rather than hot-spot lighting from a few lamps...and you don't have to splice or mess with the car's wiring.  The Hennings LED modules also have brightness adjustment.  And if prototypical is the concern, I can't believe any passenger cars had only two or three bulbs per car!

A problem I've had with Williams cars is that the constant flewxing of the wire soldered to the socket breaks it and causes a short.  I just removed them and ran the wires from the rollers up to the CV board, with chafe protection where they come through the frame and a loop under the car.