Out of Phase Transformer

Laidoffsick - Thanks for the reply - it is simple and easy to do

I edited the original post with a third question. Maybe if I can simply reverse the wires on the transformer it will be better.

Joe

Are you sure that its the Z4000?

As I recall some of the early 180W bricks were backwards.

I don't own a Z4000, but if what you state is true, that it has red and black posts, I would much rather just flip the wires on the outside than grind on the plug.

And then maybe grab the label maker and put a label on it that it has a polarity reversal.

Another option would be to cut off the plug and install a new two-prong plug, that way you can't get it wrong again.

    Lionel made adapters for this problem for their older 180w powerhouses. The part number is 72-2983-251. Turn the Powerhouse over and look for a date code. A date code of 2000 48 or lower will require a phase adapter plug. It is not necessary for other (newer) power supplies.

    I have two sets (two plugs per set) with instruction sheets. Please contact me through email if you will need a set.

John Knapp

Erie, not Eerie

Just my opinion,but I do not think what you are doing is a good idea. 

First,you can get a spark even if they are in phase. The Z4000 puts out around 21 volts I think and the bricks 18. The difference in potential can cause a spark,it is not necessarily a phasing issue. This is also not good for the windings in the bricks with less potential. I would disconnect the transformers first and phase them,setting the Z4000 at 18 volts. They may or may not be out of phase.

I discussed the same issue here with another fellow

LINK

In regards to phasing,the bricks are in sync with the wall,they are straight inductance transformers. . The Z4000 I think breaks down the sine waves and remakes them with solid state electronics. I don't know how they do it but if there is any capacitance involved doing it,it's sine wave out may be slightly out of phase with the wall. 

Dale H

I just use one of those rubberized 3-way adapters or ground receptacle adapters and force the wide blade in the wrong slot to turn it around temporarily and check phasing issues before making any physical or non-reversible changes/bstrdizations. For my Christmas setup, I actually just leave in my "rubber" phase adapters for the duration of the display when needed for different power supplies.

DO NOT do that.. that will really throw a monkey wrench into everything. Reversing the common wire and center rail wires? No no no!

You would rather cut the plug off than grind down the wide part of the plug?? REALLY?

That makes NO sense.

With my method, I've never had to do either. Nor re-wiring.

laidoffsick.  I would not grind down the common plug.  On some old transformers and a Z500 brick, I went internal and reversed wires: the 120-volt wires to the primary on a Type R; the wires on the input jack on a Z500 controller.  On others, I have cut off the plug and installed another 2-prong plug.  Really!  That way, there is never a question of which way to insert the plug, no matter who is running the layout.

Dale, what you say regarding wave form is correct, but you you really don't have much choice when you've got blocks separated by an insulated pin and controlled by different transformers.  I would note that even if using two handles of the same transformer, like a PW ZW, if the handles are NOT precisely the same there is a "short" between A & D.  ["NOT" added by edit 10/3/15]

That will only be a problem once. Then, you'll be able to say what I can...
That I never forget a phase.

RJR wrote

"Dale, what you say regarding wave form is correct, but you you really don't have much choice when you've got blocks separated by an insulated pin and controlled by different transformers.  I would note that even if using two handles of the same transformer, like a PW ZW, if the handles are precisely the same there is a "short" between A & D."

Why not just use 1 transformer? If using 2, I would just parallel identical ones permanently and wire accordingly. it would be a better arrangement IMO.

Or, you could make a transition block with relays and avoid the roller jumping.

Dale H

I would leave the Z-4000 alone since it is a transformer with a Bell and Whistle button.

The 180 Power houses are just transformer bricks so I would reverse those leads to the track to get things into phase.

I would leave the cords alone.

As far as phasing the Z with bricks, you do need to match voltage to limit any voltage difference, but I think you are just using blocks and that is not that critical that there is a voltage difference between blocks.   They are only paralleled while a train crosses from one to the other block.  This is done all the time on layouts.  G

Dale,one transformer might not have the power to run all the trains on a particular layout.  Identical transformers might be the optimum, but economics comes into play I'm not going to dump my ancient ZWs (although the Powerhouse 280 is tempting) or buy more.  The transition block violated the K.I.S.S. rule.

Gentlemen,

   As usual GGG has the correct easy fix to the Phase problem, do as he recommends and reverse the leads from the PH180, leave the Z4K alone.

PCRR/Dave

Thats all fine but with 3 transformers you have 30 amps potential on the tracks (sometimes,when all the stars line up). A short circuit could make a very big arc. Could melt track,wire or even start scenery on fire. There is a reason transformers are limited to 10 amps output,safety. The Z4000 has 2,  10 amp taps intended to run 2 separate loops. . The brick is 10 amps. They are not designed to be put in parallel,for brief periods or permanently. 

In a house the circuit breakers only work in rare instances when there is an over load or short. I perhaps had a breaker trip twice in 40 years,but on those occasions I was glad they worked.. To me sometimes incorrect circuitry is not good enough when safety is concerned. Because "they do it all the time" does not make it safe practice.  A few $5 relays and some insulted pins could solve the problem so that the transformers are never in parallel. Perhaps this is not KISS but it is a solution,a much better one IMO. 

Again with the brick and the Z4000 with its synthetic remade wave,we do not know if they will phase with the wall or the bricks. We are only assuming they do. The X and Y axis of a scope chart could be shifted ever so slightly. If that occurs you can not phase the transformers.   We all know what can happen when we assume. 

Dale H

Dale, I'm a firm believer in not providing more than 10 amps to a block, I've seen first hand multiple times the damage you can do with a derailment and excessive current on a block.

OTOH, fooling around with relays for the transition for each block on a fairly large layout is somewhat of a PITA, and I personally don't see many people adopting this idea. 

Laidoffsick:

Yep - found out the hard way. Fortunately I have 10 amp fuses in line. Took about a millisecond for it to blow.......

GGG:

How would one physically reverse the leads on the power bricks? Right now they connect to Legacy Powermasters with the vertical type three prong plug (top hole empty). The powermasters have a male post the plug goes into.

The Z4000 goes to a TPC 400. Connection to the TPC is with crimp spade connects. 

John:

My power bricks are stamped 2014

Sorry about all the replies

I use a volt meter to measure track voltage on both sides of the insulated pin. When connected to center rail/outside rail on both the transformer and brick sides I measured 18 volts each side. When I connected from center rail to center rail across both sides I read a whopping 36 volts! No wonder I had a light show!

If your using Power Masters then we need to evaluate.  How are you controlling the PM with a Cab-1L or CAB-2?  If running a conventional loco and you press the whistle on a CAB-1L does the bell sound or whistle?  If bell, just reverse the leads out of the PM to the track and your done.  If whistle sounds then they are correct and we need to go back to AC input.

Are all transformers plugged into the same outlet wiring?  If not see if you can get them on the same circuit.   Report back.  G

Yep Not good Not in phase.... What's the easiest way to get things in phase?? I like ACDX rob's or  laidoffsick's  method. I'm assuming the bricks are in phase with each other.

GGG:

legacy Cab-2

I will try a conventional loco later today. Bell and whistle work correctly for command control diesel.

I am going to ACE to see if I can purchase some kind of adapter so I can reverse the plugs for the bricks.

I appreciate your interest in helping.

Gregg - yep the bricks are in phase

Joe

Gregg, depends on the setup, and whether you want to do a permanent or a temporary fix. 

If you use MTH Z-500 type controllers, easiest way is to switch the wires on the inside of the input jack on the rear of the controller.  Do not reverse the wires on the output, or your bell & whistle buttons will be reversed.

If using a Powerhouse 180, you can get male & female plugs and sockets as are used on the end of its output cord, and make up a reversing cable (reverse wire positions between the new plug and socket).

For a lionel Type R or equivalent, I'd reverse the 120 volt wires on the nprimary coil (not a job for those not knowledgeable in electricity or soldering).  While in any old transformer, check condition of wires and insulation.

If one has 2 Z4000's with reversed polarity (some early ones apparently did) I'd replace the plug on the cord.

The problem with temporary fixes is that no one but you knows what you've done.  Also, as you age, you will find that mental random access memory is overflowing, resulting in data deletion.

Hi JOHN

I will ask you this since you are an EE.

The way the Z4000 remakes the sine wave,is it possible for the output sine wave to be out of phase with the wall? By that I mean on a scope, could it shift a little horizontally or be different vertically for that matter because of the electronics?

If I needed more power,I would parallel 2 bricks and have a full time 20 amps and take wiring precautions. I think that is better than an electronic roulette wheel.

I would have to think through a relay solution,but I think it is doable. 

Dale H

While it would be possible for it to be out of phase since it's synthesized.  I don't believe it is as I've seen several layouts that have the Z4000 and other transformers mixed on different power districts, and they haven't seemed to have a problem.

"TPC400"

Dale / John - thanks for the comments. I always read your posts very carefully.

Update for GGG:

I bought two three prong to two prong adapters. I filed down the one wide prong so I could reverse the plugs for the two lionel power bricks. I left the Z4000 alone.

 - The voltage between the two center rails went to zero.

 - No more sparks

 - Tested horn and bell on both command control and conventional locos with CAB-2.              Everything worked. 

I have a friend who is knowledgeable in wiring (he pretty much wired the layout in Balboa CA). He will pull the two pins from the ?molex? connector on the output of the bricks (wire that goes to the powermaster) and reverse them. If this works I will delete the adapters. GGG / John - your thoughts. 

From previous posts I am assuming if a transformer has colored (red / black) output posts it has 'polarity' so don't reverse wires ( I blew a fuse this way). If the output has no colored posts like the bricks there is no 'polarity' so it is ok to switch wires????????

The only issue with swapping secondary wires is that some transformers have the common posts for multiple channels all tied together, that can cause some issues.  Swapping the 110V plugs to affect phasing shouldn't be an issue.

Excellent information

The PH180 wires are marked for polarity, the hot("A") wire in the center is smooth, the neutral/common("U") wire at the bottom is ribbed.

You may want to add a polyfuse or 2 diodes to each lighted car. That at least will take away some of the roller jumping. Some methods and diagrams here

LINK

Dale H

Normally the bell and whistle work correctly in command mode because it is not a DC offset placed on the track it is command signal and serial data to the sound card.

Testing in conventional (command base disconnected and not powered up) is the best way to determine if you have common to the outer rail.  If the whistle button gives a bell, you have the output of the Power master reversed to the track.

I don't think you answered my question about common outlet?  Just incase one is wired opposite.  It happens when building.

Otherwise it is baffling that you have this issue with newer Power Houses, unless Lionel got another bad batch in the system.  G

For anyone interested,here is the relay solution. Any starter set transformer can be used to power the relays. Adding a bridge rectifier and capacitor, it becomes 24VDC filtered and it will power these and any other relays on the layout to activate track side accessories such as crossing gates and block signals. This method eliminates the need for individual bridge rectifiers on each DC relay.  The minus of the bridge shares a common with the track ground. Train wheels crossing outside insulated rails complete the circuit and activate the relay coil(s) The relay used here is a dual coil latch relay. It has a mechanical memory and will maintain state when power is removed. Here is  suitable one for about $5. It has 24VDC coils and 16 amp switching capacity,SPDT contacts. The coils can take continuous power, I use this relay and have tested it. You could also throw it with capacitor discharge using another standard relay.

Link

Here is a schematic of the circuit. For 3 power districts you would need 3 isolation blocks. They have to be as long or longer than the longest train. These are bi directional and should work as long as the operator does not allow 2 trains at once on the same transition block. Click on pic to enlarge

A train approaching from either side trip the relay coil,left or right. The relay contacts switch power to the center rail,either transformer 1 or 2. This should eliminate roller jumping on a large layout,which is what I assume this is. The diodes across the relay coils are for spike suppression. 1n4001 or similar. You are looking at maybe $25 in parts for 3 blocks.

Just note in the schematic,the left and right coils might need to be reversed when wiring. "NO" and "NC" is arbitrary when using this relay.

Dale H

As regards the original 180 watt Power Houses:

I had two of the very first issue that were out of phase with the world of then o-gauge transformers. I opened the units with an adapted[slotted] screwdriver, cut the primary hot and neutral conductors inside beyond the case stress knot,stripped the conductors, reversed and soldered them and slid double shrink tape over the joint.

I then glued a plastic red & white "re-phased" sign on the units. They can be seen residing to the left on the lower shelf of transformers pictured below. I sent Lionel's adapters for reversing the secondary output conductors to Jim Barrett to join his on his Christmas tree .

As regards paralleling Power Houses, the two green dot units located on the right below were paralleled to produce 1500* 270 watts, linked and controlled via the TPC 3000 on the right above[layout dismantled October 2009].

*see Gunrunner's post below

I do hope you mean 270 watts Dewey, it would be a neat trick to get 1500 watts out of two 135 watt powerhouse units.

GGG:

What I have is a multiple outlet box (surge protected) connected to one wall outlet. All track transformers are plugged into this box. I have smaller transformers I use for lights / turnouts / etc. that are connected into a separate outlet box on another wall plug. Note - I run Atlas O and Z-Stuff switch machines so power/ground is independent of track power/ground.

I think I understand what you are saying about using the CAB-2 even for manual operation. If I disconnect it from the 'circuit' then I have no way of controlling voltage on the power bricks so I would not be sure how to run the conventional mode test w/o the CAB 2.

Whether it is the Z4000 or the power bricks that 'wired wrong' I don't know. I wanted to leave the Z4000 alone based on your comments about bell and whistle issues. I do know that using the Z4000 for conventional running in the past both bell and whistle acted as they should.

Rob made a good comment - the wires coming from the output of the bricks do have polarity. So maybe switching the pins on the brick output side is not a good idea?