Outdoor O Gauge Experiment

The first thing that caught my mind is the conduit. In my adult life, I have had many issues with water infiltration into my home. My conclusion from my experience; it is impossible to create a perfect seal. The solution is flashing, etc. that deflects water. I don't have a suggestion here, but I can see water building up in that conduit.

Good start....I thought about outdoor but between  Winter and a very windy spring and fall I figured it was to short a season.

Oman posted:

The first thing that caught my mind is the conduit. In my adult life, I have had many issues with water infiltration into my home. My conclusion from my experience; it is impossible to create a perfect seal. The solution is flashing, etc. that deflects water. I don't have a suggestion here, but I can see water building up in that conduit.

I thought of this and I cannot come up with a good solution either. I did use plumber's tape on all of the seals and a caulking and gorilla glue around the T-joint and the drilled whole in the wood. However, there is room for moister to creep into the system via the wood itself. I thought about filling up the pipe with rice as an option. Decided against it because ultimately, the copper wire shouldn't rust (right?). 

Needless to say, this is an area I have a high curiosity about how it develops over the next few months. 

JDF posted:

Oman posted:

The first thing that caught my mind is the conduit. In my adult life, I have had many issues with water infiltration into my home. My conclusion from my experience; it is impossible to create a perfect seal. The solution is flashing, etc. that deflects water. I don't have a suggestion here, but I can see water building up in that conduit.

I thought of this and I cannot come up with a good solution either. I did use plumber's tape on all of the seals and a caulking and gorilla glue around the T-joint and the drilled whole in the wood. However, there is room for moister to creep into the system via the wood itself. I thought about filling up the pipe with rice as an option. Decided against it because ultimately, the copper wire shouldn't rust (right?). 

Needless to say, this is an area I have a high curiosity about how it develops over the next few months. 

Right, copper wire doesn't rust. I suggest eliminating the conduit and just rely on the wire insulation. Wire exposed can dry out v.s. wire in a conduit that will eventually be filled with water.

The website below is a great resource for someone like yourself interested in building a 3 rail outdoor railroad. It contains useful and interesting information.

Try this link

O Gauge Outside 

JDF,

I am the Superintendent of the G&O Railroad and have been involved with its construction since day one.  Here is what we have learned about using Atlas track outdoors.

1.  Let the track free float.  Do not fasten it down.  This helps prevent the rails breaking loose caused by expansion and contraction outdoors.  Temperatures in San Leandro range from 30 to about 105 F.  Temperatures in AL may be even more extreme.

Use flex track for straight sections and sectional track for curves.  Use pieces to different radius sectional track to make a variable diameter curve.  

2.  A solid base is not needed under the track but can be used.  The G&O uses a base of outdoor treated plywood with cement board screwed to the top in some places under the track.  Cement board is used to back showers and tubs and can be found at all the big box hardware stores.  You must use a base under the cement board so that it won't crack when you walk on it.  The advantage of cement board is that it resists all kinds of weather.  

3.  The easiest way to lay track in a raised bed is to dig a 2 to 3 inch ditch and line both sides with bender board.  (The purpose of the bender board is to hold the granite fines in place.)  Fill the center between the bender board with granite fines.  You can get granite fines at any good rock place.  It costs about $5 for a 50 pound bag in CA.  It is cheap.  The G&O uses both gray and gold fines.   

Granite fines is crushed granite.  Unlike pea gravel, it has sharp edges so it stays in place.  Pea-gravel tends to move.  

4.  Another way to raise track and make easy grades is to use Woodland Scenics sub-terrain risers beneath the track.  The G&O uses it extensively.  It seems to be immune to sun and rain.  We don't get snow.  We just lay it under the track and paint it with cheap latex outdoor house paint.  (The latex paint is to hide the white foam.  It is fine in outdoors without paint.  Do not use paint from a spray can.  Spray can paint melts the foam based on our experience. )

Use silicon sealer to hold it in place.  You can put granite fines on top of the risers to make it more realistic.  Woodland's riser system is used to make many of our grades.  I highly recommend this Woodland Scenics product for outdoor use.

The G&O tried Flexxbed.  It came apart in the sun after a couple of years.

5.  Do not use adhesive to hold the ballast and track in place.  You will eventually have to do some maintenance and adhesive makes a mess.  I did this in a couple of areas and really regretted it.

6.  Atlas switch machines fall apart in the sun and rain.  The G&O removed them.  All switches are hand thrown.  

7.  Sometimes the Atlas track has a tendency to pull apart at the track joints on straight flex track.  Use zip ties to hold the two track sections together.  You won't notice black zip ties.  We haven't had this problem on curved sectional track.  

8.  The G&O uses wire that was made for low voltage outdoor lights.  Most of this wire is either 12 or 14 gauge.  You don't need conduit for this wire since it was made to be outdoors.  

We usually run a short piece of 18 gauge speaker wire from the outdoor wire to the rail.  The wire is soldered to the rail using a resistance soldering iron.  A resistance soldering iron is well worth the money if you are going to lay a lot of outdoor track.  It costs less than engine and saves hours of soldering of time.  

Please feel free to contact me via email if you would like more information:  joe@joebarker.org

I hope that this is helpful.  I think that you are making a great start.  Good luck with taking your O gauge outside.

NH Joe

JDE

You are doing a good job preplaning. I would strongly go with the low voltage outdoor wire. No conduit. I'm about 6 months into the plan and purchasing stage of a G scale garden layout for next spring.

So I'm very interested in your project methods. Keep us posted on how it goes and good luck.

Larry

New Haven Joe posted:

JDF,

I am the Superintendent of the G&O Railroad and have been involved with its construction since day one.  Here is what we have learned about using Atlas track outdoors.

1.  Let the track free float.  Do not fasten it down.  This helps prevent the rails breaking loose caused by expansion and contraction outdoors.  Temperatures in San Leandro range from 30 to about 105 F.  Temperatures in AL may be even more extreme.

Use flex track for straight sections and sectional track for curves.  Use pieces to different radius sectional track to make a variable diameter curve.  

2.  A solid base is not needed under the track but can be used.  The G&O uses a base of outdoor treated plywood with cement board screwed to the top in some places under the track.  Cement board is used to back showers and tubs and can be found at all the big box hardware stores.  You must use a base under the cement board so that it won't crack when you walk on it.  The advantage of cement board is that it resists all kinds of weather.  

3.  The easiest way to lay track in a raised bed is to dig a 2 to 3 inch ditch and line both sides with bender board.  (The purpose of the bender board is to hold the granite fines in place.)  Fill the center between the bender board with granite fines.  You can get granite fines at any good rock place.  It costs about $5 for a 50 pound bag in CA.  It is cheap.  The G&O uses both gray and gold fines.   

Granite fines is crushed granite.  Unlike pea gravel, it has sharp edges so it stays in place.  Pea-gravel tends to move.  

4.  Another way to raise track and make easy grades is to use Woodland Scenics sub-terrain risers beneath the track.  The G&O uses it extensively.  It seems to be immune to sun and rain.  We don't get snow.  We just lay it under the track and paint it with cheap latex outdoor house paint.  (The latex paint is to hide the white foam.  It is fine in outdoors without paint.  Do not use paint from a spray can.  Spray can paint melts the foam based on our experience. )

Use silicon sealer to hold it in place.  You can put granite fines on top of the risers to make it more realistic.  Woodland's riser system is used to make many of our grades.  I highly recommend this Woodland Scenics product for outdoor use.

The G&O tried Flexxbed.  It came apart in the sun after a couple of years.

5.  Do not use adhesive to hold the ballast and track in place.  You will eventually have to do some maintenance and adhesive makes a mess.  I did this in a couple of areas and really regretted it.

6.  Atlas switch machines fall apart in the sun and rain.  The G&O removed them.  All switches are hand thrown.  

7.  Sometimes the Atlas track has a tendency to pull apart at the track joints on straight flex track.  Use zip ties to hold the two track sections together.  You won't notice black zip ties.  We haven't had this problem on curved sectional track.  

8.  The G&O uses wire that was made for low voltage outdoor lights.  Most of this wire is either 12 or 14 gauge.  You don't need conduit for this wire since it was made to be outdoors.  

We usually run a short piece of 18 gauge speaker wire from the outdoor wire to the rail.  The wire is soldered to the rail using a resistance soldering iron.  A resistance soldering iron is well worth the money if you are going to lay a lot of outdoor track.  It costs less than engine and saves hours of soldering of time.  

Please feel free to contact me via email if you would like more information:  joe@joebarker.org

I hope that this is helpful.  I think that you are making a great start.  Good luck with taking your O gauge outside.

NH Joe

This information is amazing!! Thank you so much and please keep me updated. 

Quick questions:

- Regarding adhesive, granite fines, and garden clean up: Not sure if you get much fall season dead-fall or other debris on your layout, but how do you efficiently clean up the layout without disturbing the granite fines if you're not using adhesive? 

- With your trench and bender board method (which actually is a great idea!), how does that setup affect drainage from the track? While a little bit of standing water might be okay, I was trying to avoid "sponging" of the ballast as much as possible. Thoughts?

- Currently you're using manual switches, but do you have any thoughts/ideas about potential electric switches that might withstand outside conditions (Looking at you too Atlas-O!)?

- Lastly, not mentioned in my post, are you still using Legacy/TMCC only on your layout? I am interested in combining DCS and Legacy. I'm just curious about your experience with the DCS signal.

Thanks again!

JDF posted:

Quick questions:

- Regarding adhesive, granite fines, and garden clean up: Not sure if you get much fall season dead-fall or other debris on your layout, but how do you efficiently clean up the layout without disturbing the granite fines if you're not using adhesive? 

- With your trench and bender board method (which actually is a great idea!), how does that setup affect drainage from the track? While a little bit of standing water might be okay, I was trying to avoid "sponging" of the ballast as much as possible. Thoughts?

- Currently you're using manual switches, but do you have any thoughts/ideas about potential electric switches that might withstand outside conditions (Looking at you too Atlas-O!)?

- Lastly, not mentioned in my post, are you still using Legacy/TMCC only on your layout? I am interested in combining DCS and Legacy. I'm just curious about your experience with the DCS signal.

Thanks again!

JDF,

1.  We got a lot of leaves and other junk on the layout before a tree fell on the G&O a couple of years ago.  Getting rid of the tree was the best outcome from this disaster.

Granite fines tend to harden when wet and stay that way after drying.  You can use a blower to clean off the track.  Some of the fines will blow away but it is usually not a big problem.  The bender board on either side of the trench does two things:  1.  It keeps weeds and other stuff out and (2) it keeps most of the fines in.  You will have to re-ballast the track sections from time to time just like a real railroad.  It is part of garden railroad maintenance.  

 Water drains right through the granite fines and into the soil below.  Sponging ballast is not a problem.  We have run the O gauge line in the rain.  It helps if there are several inches of fines under the track.  Granite fine ballast is the standard in the G gauge garden railroad community.  

2.  We have looked at adding air driven switches but this has not been a priority.  Electrical G gauge switch machines could also be used.  

Most garden railroads have only a few switches.  All of our switches are on top of a sandwich of cement board and outdoor plywood.  (The cement board is on top.)  We do not ballast around the switches to prevent rock and other stuff from getting into them.

I did run DCS and Legacy on the layout before the tree fell on the layout a couple of years ago.  I was not happy with the track signal at that time but I did get it to run on occasion.  My biggest problem was getting a strong signal between the hand held controller and the TIU.  

We took DCS out after the tree fell on the G&O and have been Legacy only since then.  We expect to reinstall DCS in 2017.  We plan to relocate the TIU closer to the center of the display and install the new DCS Wifi.  We believe that these changes will get us a better signal and solve the hand held to TIU signal problem.  The G&O was wired in a star pattern to run DCS from the outset and is still wired that way.  

 As I am the only G&O member with DCS engines, this has not been priority for the G&O.  I am about the only person in the SF Bay Area who has a working DCS layout at home.  I run both Legacy and DCS on my home layout without issues.   

The O gauge Woodshire Railroad in the Seattle area has been running DCS for a long time and is very successful.  You should probably take a look at the Woodshire website.  Google Woodshire Garden Railroad.  They took a different approach to laying track which has been successful for them.  The Woodshire Garden Railroad is one of the best O gauge garden railroads in the country.

Good Luck,

NH Joe

If you are running wire outdoors look for a "W" designation" on the wire type. The "W" indicates that the insulation is rated for water exposure. THHW, RHW, etc.

J Daddy posted:

Great Project. I would love an outdoor layout, but unfortunately Michigan Winters are just too brutal. Good Luck!

 

I have never been to Michican but winter and an outdoor layout are not incompatible:

Winter:

Summer:

Regards

Fred