Plastic body repair help

Hi ASYMAIR95,

Wow! That's a nasty one indeed. Obviously a Lionel F3 or similar locomotive with a plastic body shell. Having done some extensive body work on model trains, I'd recommend trying something along the lines of PLASTI-ZAP Medium CA. Make certain both surfaces are completely clean and apply as directed. Have some type of clamp to hold everything together while the adhesive sets up.

After securing the crack with adhesive, you will probably have to use some sort of body filler to smooth out the surface. I've found that Testor's Contour Putty  works well for me on plastic for minor imperfections and it's easy to sand and smooth.

I'd find a new shell. Unless you're really good with body filler.

I'd be reaching for my JB-Weld, I've done some interesting repairs with it.  However, any way you slice it, it will require repainting.

Unless that shell has a great deal of sentimental value, I'd replace it.  And even if it holds great s.v., it wold take considerable skill to make an acceptable cosmetic repair IMO.

I could do the repair, it's painting it that would be the big hurdle.

Painting is my specialty!  I know that shell is in rough shape. The person was posting about repairing it.

To do the job properly, the piece would need to be stripped first, glue the pieces back in place, fill the remaining crack with body putty, sand, prime, repaint and apply new decals with a clear coat.

Unless the piece has sentimental value, the repair cost would be expensive. Far better off buying a new shell as suggested.  

No problem Erica Ann, I'll JB-Weld it and you can paint and decal it!

Thank you for the replies. Looked for a good used shell and they are very expensive. I only paid $80 for the 2354 set, and it will be a runner on my layout, not a shelf queen.

For the immediate future I super glued the crack, then followed up on the inside with hot glue. The repair is very strong. I will move this cover to the rear non powered engine, and use the good cover on the front engine. Will also put a new water slide decal over the repaired area and a repro number board to replace the missing one.

Will keep a look out for a used one that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg. 

Thank you again for the help. This forum is great.

Has some battery damage, but not bad. 

Is there a preferred method for repairing battery acid damage on the frame? Wash in a baking soda solution, dry, sand, paint? Thank you again.

Evaporust!

  I'll second the Evaporust. Great stuff, safe to most paint/litho (long soaks may be a new story at times)

  Every home junk drawer should have some ductape, electrical tape kept in the center of that , gel super glue, a can of Flex-seal, and some 5min  JBWeld.

  Back the nose with JBW vs hot glue if it comes loose again. Sand the gloss off where you want glue too. Gloss sheds tack adheasion too easily. Sanding in deep coarse scratches give grooves for paint and glue to set up in and bite hard; forming mechanical wedges were tack isn't working. Thicker glues/paints may need deeper scratches especially on a low tack surface.

 JBW can be a bit thick for some seams, but can hardly be beat as a backer.  It can be molded with plastic wrap & pealed later, sometimes while some detail can still be quickly managed, and normally sculpted with wet tools and fingers after a short wait for it to loose some wetness and imediate tack. Kinda like clay or dough, but the water doesn't mix in.

Removing some plastic shards and filling an area with JBW can actually be easier than juggling and avoiding parts buckling into uneven, non-parallel planes.

This whole tender corner is JBW, steps & risers to the center step tread too. 2 layers, yellow molded with wrap &tape & red sculpted; no paint needed. I managed a good color blend (Tube batch pigment varies, your mix can vary it some too. Cure time change is a sideffect. Likely some strength change with that too, but nothing will end up softer than the plastic if you are even close.

I also have a 1061 shell that won't glue well period. Anything and everything peels loose or looses it's bite with the slightest little shock. 60 grit fails. Dovetails with a dentist bit is a thought. Must be Bakelight vs plastic.

Do I disassemble the frame and dip the whole frame in evaporust? Or, can I just brush it on specific areas and wipe off with a cloth after a few minutes? Will it remove paint in areas I don’t want it removed? I’m trying to keep it original with as much patina as possible. I just want to remove the rust/rot to prevent further damage in the future.

Here are some pics of the damaged areas.

Amazingly the horn relay looks like it can be saved. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd be reaching for my JB-Weld, I've done some interesting repairs with it.  However, any way you slice it, it will require repainting.

2nd both recommendations. JB Weld is good stuff.....and a good amount of body work and paint will be ahead. But it is possible. 

I've used JB Weld on trains and for things you'd never believe on my classic cars....works.

Most plastic can be re-assembled.    Floor crash SW9.    Slideshow   The model required new window pieces, (4), from Atlas.  Green is a sand-a-ble filler used before paint.  

 

First off, for that frame, I'd use straight white vinegar and a toothbrush to scrub off all the residue.  Clean everything you can, rinse it, and then dunk it into the Evaporust.  As for saving the paint, Evaporust doesn't affect most paint, but I suspect the paint under all that battery leakage is already toast, so I think that ship has sailed.

 Oh crap... I have a box for you somewhere Dave. I keep forgetting. They will come sooner or later; holler if you need them sooner, but getting myself out is hard right now, let alone for a package.  

  I haven't dipped a diesel chassis. I can't recall the metal used right now.  ER may only remove the rust and rust stains... I'm not sure on the white corrosion. Hopefully GRJ will/can elaborate.  

I can't say for sure, but I doubt there will be issues. It is a mild product, except to rust.  I'm listing statements you might compare.  Testing anything not tried before is a given imo.  Try it on a yard tool or something to get a feel for it. I think you will continue.

ER is a citric based product. Like a very acidic orange juice (he thinks I'm joking )  I didn't wear gloves much after it ran down my forarm and didn't irritate the skin after about 20min. (I get hives on my forearms very easily).   Kinda like a weak goo-gone, without all the oils. Goo-gone creeps under paint far more, and I'd have to think its the higher oil content (lower acidicy Id bet too).   When you are done, pour it back in the bottle; it is still good.  Color change and work speed will let you know when to dump it and buy more.

 You can apply it and agitate the areas any way you choose really, but it only works when wet. Dunking makes wet easy  (agitation greatly speeds things by exposing fresh rust. The sooner dry rust is exposed to the wetness the sooner the wetness can loosen the newly surfaced rust.... It is faster and easier than it sounds)

I bet that ons is done in an hour or two tops, with about 10min of actual work and the rest just waiting.  Soft feel to paint will fade fast, on he long soaks it was kinda soft for days, maybe weeks, but seems like every other tinplate now.

It took about twelve hours of soaking to even begin softening prewar paint. Postwar paint is better quality.  It cleans the paint too fyi. (i e. those cars had a 50/50 split. Half was crusty, deep, rust/ half was paint ....awful)

   The other issue was some mild creeping under the paint lifting a few edges just slighty.  Penetrating oil creeps more.  I don't think I lost over a 1/32" off an already chipped and flaked paint job.  I don't see it making that paint much worse either really. You may lose some flakes and loose edges as noted though (MAY not will) 

That white stuff is alkaline based, that's why I first attack that with vinegar and try to remove it.  With a chassis that looks like that, I personally think that saving the paint is not going to happen in any case, I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to do so.

I dipped a bunch of diesel chassis as well as a bunch of boxcar chassis in Evaporust with excellent results.  I had a ton of stuff recovered from the Sandy floods that was left in the boxes for months before being unpacked.  I was able to revive most of it, though the Lionel chassis paint was already fatally damaged by the salt water, and it peeled off in sheets.  I bead blasted what was left and painted all the chassis with rattle cans, they came out great.  I also dunked all the trucks, including the power trucks from the locomotives, that worked very well.  Even the drive motors that were frozen went into the Evaporust, and all of them came out functional, I was suitably impressed!

The only surprise came with K-Line wheelsets, they have some sort of copper content or similar, and for some reason the Evaporust ate those, it was truly ugly!   I had to replace those.

OK, strip the frame down, white vinegar, scrub, rinse, then ER, scrub, rinse, done. Got it.

How long in the vinegar? Just till the crusties are gone?

Do I repaint affected areas once done? I’m leaning towards keeping it as original as possible, but if it needs paint for protection I’m OK with that.

I dunk them for maybe 15 minutes in the vinegar and then scrub away to get the stuff off.  Repeat as necessary until you can't get any farther, then try the Evaporust after rinsing.  The Evaporust works much slower, and typically you'll need a few hours.

You will most certainly want to paint it, after removing all the corrosion it will rust again very quickly without paint.  I'd personally strip it and do a decent paint job, trying to paint only the affected areas will look pretty crappy, at least IMO.

There are a lot of sand-able/filler paint products that can be use to prep/metal/wood/plastic, available most any hardward/paint store or the big boxes. Autobody stores also an assortment of material.   Clean bare metal/ or any material surface a must.  IMO, Mike CT.  There are metal primers in spray cans.  I've used a Krylon primer, both red and grey.  Sherwin William Preprite, ProBlock another very good pre-paint material that is sand-able.  

Thank you for the help. Since painting is needed, does anyone have a close color match to this charcoal grey color of the frame? It doesn’t appear to be black to me.

How does this affect the value of the train? I know once you start painting things it is no longer original and it decreases. I know personally, when I’m making a purchase I only buy unmolested specimens, good, bad, or ugly. 

I moved the damaged shell to the B unit and the good shell to the A. Honestly, it’s almost unnoticeable unless you are looking for it. Once the new number board and decal are on, I think it will look fine.

That came together quite nicely, although I do think a little putty wouldn't hurt...

Mark in Oregon

My favorite part of acquiring a new engine...initial cleaning, inspection, maintenance, and lubrication.

Hmm...value... Are you saying you might sell them one day?... I doubt it AndI bet you will regret it deeply if you do.

 I went thru a similar delema with my Grandmothers Commodore Vanderbilt. I decided I wouldn't likely sell it, there was 1000+ more in much better shape. A repaint would only preserve it for a longer period of time whether I'm around or not. The job turned out well enough you might not figure out it's a repaint. (the inside is too well painted to be original)  In the end, I'm happy it looks better and glad to know it's going to still be around when I'm not.  I'd rather someone used it than having it sit on a shelf too.

  The value of most PW has actual most likely dropped or stabilized in the last decades when compared to other cost rises. All the new trains have most folks attention today. Not much going up in price like it once was. Sudden unexpected rises all but gone. The best way to go about this hobby IMO is to do what will make YOU happy when you've shut off power strip and go to sleep.

  I'm guessing, but charcoal black to "hot rod" black with a satin topcoat sounds about right to me.  Color testing on a similar surface is always needed for good match imo. You can easily get two cans of the same paint and have one cure in a slightly off shade. It's the nature of the beast. Trying to keep buys within the same bulk lot helps.  The solution is a new, light topcoat. The similar shade will disappear very fast since the color bleed is nil. So not much topoat at all would be needed. Of course glosses can need a thicker coat sometimes to get "glassy" smooth. Some will show beads, some will flow fine, etc..

I don't have a source, but I'm guessing with the NYC popularity, a "proper" touch up paint is out there. As in not a dept. store offer, but a custom.

A professional automotive painters supply house are the best there are imo.  They can electronically scan a paint and recreate it. Even the age changes of old paint can get picked up as part of "the color in hand" vs an exact pigment count copy of what the paint looked like in it's prime.  It costs more, but the paint is better and we are talking customs. Most can put it in a rattle can in minutes too. 

  Some house paint suppliers also have scanners and carry more than just laytex & oil based for homes, I just find the automotive paint folk cater to more of my other immediate needs and are more cutting edge on new ideas in general.

Thank you, lots of good info.

I don’t think I will be selling, I just want to preserve the history of the train. Every scratch and nick tells a story of where this train has been, the hands it has passed through, and the joy it has brought children for decades. I like to keep them as original as possible. 

My only exception to this rule is if there is corrosion that will cause further damage if left unchecked. I would also consider any mechanical upgrades or modifications to make the train run better or prolong life. For example, on this A unit I just finished I added an additional ground wire running from motor to motor to prevent grounding issues.

After the vinegar and ER I will see how much original paint is left and go from there. 

As a side, I have a 2356 F3 that is giving me fits. Will start another thread for that one. I have one motor that no matter what I do hangs up and will not start with the other one. It eventually gets going, but it takes awhile.

All stripped down ready for rehab.

There is a tiny bit of corrosion on the horn relay. Should I just use some light sand paper to remove and be done with it? Also, I have a greenbergs repair manual. There are a few pages on relay adjustments/tuning, does that apply to this style relay? I would imagine they are all pretty much the same.

This thread has gone well beyond the initial question, which is great! 

Lots to learn here... 

Mark in Oregon

I wouldn't go crazy on the horn relay, knocking it off is probably the best bet.  As long as it works, it should last a very long time.

I agree. If there is only a small bit o rust inside, consider a bit of oil/metal protectant. If you wipe, oil, wipe, oil, wipe about 2-3 times a year the oil will break the rust up and it will go away..just slowly. As soon as you see light rust vs the dark wet look, it's slightly past due. Early on it may have to be more often, but that trails off..."preventive maintenance". A couple of pals would never paint a hot rod with anything but a clearcoat; protection only, patina more or less preserved. I've suggested Sheath gun oil, light penetration, great preservation (creep?) and T-9 which is paint & plastic safe, also penetrates rust, but I can say no paint has been lifted in my T-9 uses over about 17years now.(not cheap, barely under $20 a can, very thin dry teflon wax after it sprays/drys. It only needs a small bit as a lube, to spray liberally is for airplane flaps (boeing anti-ice lube & metal protection) Mechanical relays are very similar across the board. Brittle metal when trying an adjustment is the only way Ive hurt/killed an already badly wounded soldier. I wouldn't be too afraid, but would be careful. Checking the points for a flat contact is about all I do if it aint broke.

John: on the Evoprust liquid or gel? Also has any ever used WD Rust Remover Soak?

Evaporust is a liquid, and you can reuse it as well.  It just works slower as it ages and absorbs more rust.  When it gets working real slow, time to buy more.

Evaporust is good, but it will strip paint and lithography from Marx trains, dont ask me how I know.

Adriatic posted:

Hmm...value... Are you saying you might sell them one day?... I doubt it AndI bet you will regret it deeply if you do.

 I went thru a similar delema with my Grandmothers Commodore Vanderbilt. I decided I wouldn't likely sell it, there was 1000+ more in much better shape. A repaint would only preserve it for a longer period of time whether I'm around or not. The job turned out well enough you might not figure out it's a repaint. (the inside is too well painted to be original)  In the end, I'm happy it looks better and glad to know it's going to still be around when I'm not.  I'd rather someone used it than having it sit on a shelf too.

  The value of most PW has actual most likely dropped or stabilized in the last decades when compared to other cost rises. All the new trains have most folks attention today. Not much going up in price like it once was. Sudden unexpected rises all but gone. The best way to go about this hobby IMO is to do what will make YOU happy when you've shut off power strip and go to sleep.

  I'm guessing, but charcoal black to "hot rod" black with a satin topcoat sounds about right to me.  Color testing on a similar surface is always needed for good match imo. You can easily get two cans of the same paint and have one cure in a slightly off shade. It's the nature of the beast. Trying to keep buys within the same bulk lot helps.  The solution is a new, light topcoat. The similar shade will disappear very fast since the color bleed is nil. So not much topoat at all would be needed. Of course glosses can need a thicker coat sometimes to get "glassy" smooth. Some will show beads, some will flow fine, etc..

I don't have a source, but I'm guessing with the NYC popularity, a "proper" touch up paint is out there. As in not a dept. store offer, but a custom.

A professional automotive painters supply house are the best there are imo.  They can electronically scan a paint and recreate it. Even the age changes of old paint can get picked up as part of "the color in hand" vs an exact pigment count copy of what the paint looked like in it's prime.  It costs more, but the paint is better and we are talking customs. Most can put it in a rattle can in minutes too. 

  Some house paint suppliers also have scanners and carry more than just laytex & oil based for homes, I just find the automotive paint folk cater to more of my other immediate needs and are more cutting edge on new ideas in general.

There are two sources that I know of for Lionel repro paints.  Talk to John at trainemamels.com.  The other is Hennings, one of the spnsors of this forum.  Harry Henning is a font of wisdom on this subject.

ogaugenut posted:

Evaporust is good, but it will strip paint and lithography from Marx trains, dont ask me how I know.

Certain paints, especially if what's under them isn't solid, will be damaged by Evaporust.  I found that MTH paint as impervious to Evaporust, but Lionel and K-Line paint was not.

I settled on a hybrid solution. I scrubbed with vinegar which removed all the acid crusties. This left the surface pitted from the corrosion, but there was still lots of original paint around. I then shot only the affected area with a clear rust converting paint. Immediately after shooting I wiped the surface gently with a cloth to remove the converter. This left converter in the pitted areas, but removed it from the original Lionel paint that was left on top. When this dried, I then did the same thing with a flat black, which filled and colored the pits, but was easily wiped off the Lionel paint.

I believe this will prevent any further damage from the corrosion, but will also preserve as much of the original patina/paint as possible. 

That's looking good; appreciate the "play by play"... 

Mark in Oregon

  "Duh!"... I've used the stuff in the garage 100 times if I did it once. I just haven't used it since I had to stop building cars & began living indoors again.

 What I had turned a machinist's dye purple though.. You would look like you were running a Patrick Swayze Express 😨

I think you did what you set out to do. 

Now oil, wire-brush, and wipedown those needlenose too. Just quick, every time for a while  

Finally got the 2354 finished. New/used number board and water slide nose decal and we are back in business. Here is a short video of her running on my layout.

https://youtu.be/bm-HF4da1Io