Possible Issues With a 15-Year Old NIB MTH Diesel

PS2 5 volt boards have been known to have a shelf life. 2002 it is sure to have 5 volt boards

I also have this question.  How long is the shelf life of PS2 5V original batteries when stored?

The grease should be fine; far too much is made of the grease issue on relatively new (15 years old) equipment. Grease can indeed become hard, but modern lubricants are so much better than the old stuff - which is less good and, by definition, old - that the problem is pretty much gone. (I opened the gearbox up on a NIB Lionel 704 scale Hudson - ATSF Warhorse from the 90's, I guess - a couple of months ago, wondering about an issue. Nope - looked brand new, felt brand new, had no leakage anywhere.)

Lubricate everything ypu can see, of course. The grease on the visible gears - exposed to the air - may or may not appear stiff. Wipe it off. Dropping the trucks to look at the worm/spur gears is easy - why not do it? If it looks stiff to you, replace it. 

The boards should be fine - I have bought MTH stuff that old and older (PS1 and 2) and, put it on the track (letting the batteries charge, of course - especially the PS1), 30 minutes later off they went.

Thank you Matt and D500.  Yes, I wasn't thinking of 15 years being newer grease than what's in postwar.  Great point!  Yes, I will certainly go over it well before running if I purchase it.  I purchased one last year that was older than 2002.  The owner said it had sat on the shelf for 8 years, and there was little wear, and everything was fine.

Don't forget the center rail  rollers. Get them rolling freely and lubed.

First off.  Remove and replace the battery.    My experience in working on them is this:    The battery will leak and follow the wires up to the board.    If that's the case the board my be shot.    If your lucky and the corrosion was not gone to the board it may be fine.   

I'm not so sure about the grease though since this is MTH it may not be an issue.  I had a problem with a Lionel yard tower with the rotating men inside.  It ran terrible...would barely move.  Opened up the gear box and whatever grease they used was sticky/tacky.  It actually made movement worse instead of better.  Took me an hour to clean it off the gears and after, everything worked as it should.  I know it's two different manufacturers and items but I just mention as FYI.  Trust nothing until you rule it out.

Mark,

i would stay away from any engine with a 5  volt board. It is just a matter of time before it fails. It's not if it will fail, it will FAIL. 

Dave

Mark, 

As mentioned, 5 volt boards are troublesome. I'd stay far away or get it cheap enough to have some $$$ set aside to put new boards in if they are bad. Might be worth looking for a later PS2 or PS3 if it is a relatively common engine. 

Gregg, Vinny26, BigRail, Dave,

Thank you for all the good advice!  Yes, the rollers would need lubed and the battery replaced, along with inspecting the leads.  Yes the smallest corrosion could find its way to the board.  

Dave and Matt reminded me that this will have the dreaded 5 volt board I have read about.  See, I hadn't thought of that.  Yes, I think that is a deal breaker right there!!

SJC posted:

Mark, 

As mentioned, 5 volt boards are troublesome. I'd stay far away or get it cheap enough to have some $$$ set aside to put new boards in if they are bad. Might be worth looking for a later PS2 or PS3 if it is a relatively common engine. 

SJC,

I just saw you post while I sent my reply.  Yes it is a common engine.  I'll keep looking for a newer one

Thank you everyone!!!

Reading this discussion are those 5 volt boards replacabale or is there somewhat of an upgrade?

Yes, you can get replacements for the 5V board.  We used to use 3V boards with the 5V connectors, now they are supplying the PS32 Stacker board with is a PS/3 board that is made to look to the locomotive like a PS/2 board.  However, it'll cost you several hundred dollars to replace the electronics, something to consider if you're buying one of these.

Yikes!!

Hope you don't have a phone, computer, or a car, all those things will break down and die, not an if, but a when.

There is a whole lot of talk about the evil 8.4v PS2 boards, yet many (myself included) have run those engines for years without failures. Yes, they do fail, so do brand new out of the box PS3.0 engines, as does everything eventually -- any of you fellas have a knee that isn't as good as it was when you were 18? The little blue pills with all the ads on TV sell by the millions for a reason, something isn't working right.

The advise on this forum becomes an echo chamber, the same myth repeated until it is fact and gospel. Again, yes, early used PS2.0 boards fail, not going to say they don't, but without real data the failure rates and causes are unknown, I have rad this forum for 8 years not once has this data been published. There are known issues with speakers, a $4.00 part, which can cause a failure, how many failed due to that issue, old batteries can cause a failure how many was that the reason, how many imploded killing dozens and destroying entire cities, again data unknown. 

Mark, if you can tolerate some risk, are willing to concede you might have to replace a speaker, and battery, you may be able to get a great engine that you'll be happy with for years and years. Or everyone in Butler, PA might die in tragically funny model train board failure accident. 

Totally agree with CINCINNATIWESTERN. I have a lot of the 5 volt engines and my experience is generally pretty positive. If it runs now and you put a BCR in it (or otherwise carefully monitor the battery) you should be good. I guess part of the question, is how much do you like that particular engine, is a later version (3 volt PS2 or PS3) available, and what's the cost differential? 

Gerry

It is a known fact that PS2 5 volt boards gave a significantly higher failure rate than the 3 volt or PS3 boards due to capacitor failures on the boards. Replacing the boards with PS3 stacker boards cost about $245 retail fir the parts plus labor to have a tech do the work. The OP asked if there was anything he should worry about and that us definitely something he should take into consideration much like you wouldn't go play soccer with your bad knees. 

Matt, 

Please provide data to support this well known fact on failure rates? Is is that the older boards fail at 1 in 5, 1 in 50, or 1 in 10,000. The statement that these fail at a higher rate than newer boards is useless without context.

Smokers get lung cancer more often than non-smokers too, which tells me exactly nothing in terms of what the actual increased risk is associated with smoking. 

Without supporting data, this subject has taken on a life of its own on these forums. 

What year did MTH transition from the 5V? 

Is there a way to know which board is in a loco without opening it up?

CincinnatiWestern posted:

There is a whole lot of talk about the evil 8.4v PS2 boards, yet many (myself included) have run those engines for years without failures. Yes, they do fail, so do brand new out of the box PS3.0 engines, as does everything eventually --

...snip...

There are some people here that have seen hundreds of these boards and have a pretty good handle on the failure rates.  Talk to folks like Marty Fitzhenry or George (GGG), they've serviced a ton of these and are a pretty reliable gauge of the reliability of various DCS board types.  I've personally had three or four 5V boards in my own locomotives fail immediately upon power-on when removed from prolonged storage.  In my MTH repairs, I've replaced far more 5V boards than 3V boards.  Given the fact that the 5V boards had about a 3 year run, and the 3V boards had 7 or 8 years of production, those numbers certainly suggest that the 5V boards would be more suspect.  Remember, individual users are a sample of a handful of boards, repair stations get to see far more samples. I've only been doing MTH repairs for a few years, other folks that have lived through far more examples should certainly have a more solid basis to judge the reliability.  In my more limited experience, I'd far rather have a 3V board than a 5V board.

You might wonder why they're more prone to failures, here are a few possibilities.

• This is a new design, lessons learned in this design were doubtless applied to the later designs.
• The 5V board design pushes the components closer to their limits.
• Electrolytic capacitors dry out as they age, leading to failure, 5V boards are older units.
• Environmental factors, such as the operating temperature of the board.

Another factor with the newer 3V system is the fact that far more repairs are possible to the 3V board set.  Many failures can be remedied by component replacement.  Even if a board isn't repairable, you usually only have to replace one of the two boards for a repair.

In regard to failing capacitors, 15 years is typically a geriatric component.  Here's one of many industry statements on capacitor MTBF.

By de-rating, the life expectancies beyond 15 years can be achieved. When life expectancies exceed 15 years the expected life of the capacitor should be limited to 15 years mainly due to the sealing materials will deteriorate over time.
The life of the capacitor can be reduced if the amount of ripple current becomes excessive causing the capacitor heat up from its ESR. Care should be taken to limit the temperature rise (Tr) due to the ripple current and ESR to a maximum of 10°C above the ambient temperature the capacitor is operating in.
It should be evident that a 10°C temperature rise due to the ESR will reduce the expected life is half.
Other factors that can reduce the expected life of a capacitor are:
• High leakage current.
• Frequent charge and discharge cycles.
• Excessive reverse voltage.
• Application of voltages greater than the rated voltage of the capacitor.
• AC voltage exceeding the limits of the capacitor.
• Operation at temperatures exceeding the maximum temperature rating for the capacitor.

bigtruckpete posted:

What year did MTH transition from the 5V? 

Is there a way to know which board is in a loco without opening it up?

You can go to the MTH Trains site and enter the model number.  Check the User's Manual and see what kind of battery it talks about.

I thought this would be a topic that woud pique the interest of a number of folks.  Some would be like me, modelers who know something about electronics like me with 43 years experience if you count 2-year tech school, modelers who don't know much about electronics, and modelers who are also service technicians like Matt and John.  I appreciate everyone's opinion on the subject and the time you have taken to state your opinion.  

The gentleman has offered to take the engines out of the boxes and wrappers, open them up to see the condition inside, and try to run them; if I commit to purchasing them if they are okay.  Of course, I know full well anything that works today cound not work tomorrow.  That is where I am right now.  I think his offer is very fair.  He is taking a lot of the guesswork out of it.  I just need to decide.

Thank you again everyone!!!

CincinnatiWestern posted:

Matt, 

Please provide data to support this well known fact on failure rates? Is is that the older boards fail at 1 in 5, 1 in 50, or 1 in 10,000. The statement that these fail at a higher rate than newer boards is useless without context.

Smokers get lung cancer more often than non-smokers too, which tells me exactly nothing in terms of what the actual increased risk is associated with smoking. 

Without supporting data, this subject has taken on a life of its own on these forums. 

Matt,

Don't get coerced into stepping on the purple third rail.  LOL

Bruce

On a 5V board, I would hit it with a fully charged green MTH battery and not a BCR.    Yes the BCR is a cool product.  I have seen several 5V boards that have sat for a period of time blow when introduced to a hot charged BCR.  Do the battery and run it a bit and then introduce the BCR if you wish.  If you do, buy a new BCR.

One other thing to consider.  Do not be the guy who wants to charge the old white battery.  If your engine has a white battery, properly discard it.

Marty,

That is very interesting.  I will follow your advice.  Thank you!

I decided to give it a go and buy the engine.  I know the seller, and he is going to open it up and make sure it isn't corroded etc first.  We will see how it goes.

Mark, you have taken all the correct steps.  I wish you good luck.   I have a few engines (5V) and have been replacing the old boards with the new PS32 boards.  I can not say enough about the new PS32 boards.  I have several 5V boards in my board box but refuse to sell them as they are time bombs and I do not wish that on any fellow member.  Over the past few years I have been sending PS2 3V boards that are bad to George (GGG) Galyo to be rebuilt.  They come back better than new and I have been using those to replace many 5V boards.  My problem is I have many engines and constantly stay on top of them to keep them all running.

Thank you Marty!  Yes, I agree, you as a MTH Certified Technician wouldn't want to sell someone an engine with a 5 volt board.  I have read about the PS32 board hear on the Forum, and that will be the answer if I have trouble with this or any of the other few engines I have with 5 volt boards.  That is great that George is able to rebuild them even better than new.  Reading his replies and others' comments about him, he is very sharp and always willing to help as you and John are.

My main objective is to build a small fleet of engines I like at a modest price and upgrade board before I retire in the next few years.  Then I will have the time to play around with these in a small part like you fellows.

Many thanks, one and all, including my seller!!!

I thought I would give an update.  I bought the F3 A-B-A set.  They look great of course, being new in the box.  I replaced the battery on the 5 volt board with a new one and charged it up, and lubricated as well.  Knock on wood, everything is working properly!  Thank you once again everyone who contributed!!

Mark, they could run for a very long time or croak tomorrow, that's the adventure of running the 5V boards.

Yes, John!  I am living on the edge!  Ha ha!

Mark, that is a very nice looking set!