Power pack substitution for MRC Transformer?

That suitcase is really clever and neatly done.

Assuming the MRC transformer is a model #001301, the sustained output wattage is 64W. That should be enough to operate a LionChief+2.0 engine. The reason I would not use that transformer is the output voltage range is zero to 24VAC. The Lionel engines are rated for 19VAC maximum. I know I would sooner or later over voltage the engines and damage their electronics. From the instruction manual the 0001301 is not modular, it is a single integrated power pack.

I have a marking on the dial for 19V and there is some sort of "Booster" button on the unit.  I have the circuitry set up so that I can use the Z-1000 to power both loops and when I do that none of the LionChief 2.0 engines exhibit a problem.  I just think that the amps are insufficient and therefore the wattage probably exaggerated.

Is being hardwired a non-starter for substituting the transformer though?  I have a common ground between the two transformers and they are in phase.

Thanks,

John

If you're running LC/LC+/LC+ 2.0, you can use a plain 18V brick, consider one of the MTH Z-750 or Z-1000 bricks.  Either of those should be plenty of power for any Lionchief locomotive.

What GRJ says. If you are running conventional you will still need an outboard controller for a new brick, the MRC will not do that for you.

@AmFlyer posted:

What GRJ says. If you are running conventional you will still need an outboard controller for a new brick, the MRC will not do that for you.

Running both otherwise I would just use a brick unless I install a switch and external port maybe.

Thanks,

John

Actually I just checked and the power supply is modular on the MRC.  Plugs into the back of the controller with a barrel jack.

John

From what I've read about the MTH 'Z' transformers, the output does not get reduced compared to it's rating.  The Z-1000 puts out 100V not as you said 'a questionable' amount

- walt

@walt rapp posted:

From what I've read about the MTH 'Z' transformers, the output does not get reduced compared to it's rating.  The Z-1000 puts out 100V not as you said 'a questionable' amount

- walt

Not sure I follow what you mean Walt.

What I was contemplating was using an 18V MTH brick and plugging it into the MRC controller instead of the small 65W brick that's plugged into it now.  Then I was going to test the track with a multimeter as I rotated the handle.

Not sure about the so-called "booster circuit" though.

John

The MTH Z-750 Transformer puts out 75 watts approx, and the MTH Z-1000 Transformer puts out 100 watts approx. Much more power effective than a Lionel CW-80 Transformer for pulling power, plus the the MTH Z series Transformers are about as bulletproof on reliability as anything out there.

@Craftech posted:

Not sure I follow what you mean Walt.

What I was contemplating was using an 18V MTH brick and plugging it into the MRC controller instead of the small 65W brick that's plugged into it now.  Then I was going to test the track with a multimeter as I rotated the handle.

Not sure about the so-called "booster circuit" though.

John

John, I based it on this line from your original post.  maybe I mistook which trannie you were discussing at that moment.

"Purportedly 80 Watts (doubtful).  Here it is installed in the portable control panel on the left side."

sorry if I confused things

walt

UPDATE:  I bought a NIB Z-750 power brick after successfully testing a Z-1000 Power Brick with the MRC head unit.  I had asked the vendor to measure it for me since I couldn't find the dimensions listed anywhere.  He measured it wrong (indicating that it was smaller than the Z-1000 brick.  It's the exact same size.

Either way with the booster switch in the on position on the MRC head unit and the MTH Z-750 power brick attached the output is a smooth 0 - 16V.  I had to make room for it, but it fits if you remove the case's divider and put the Fastrack Switches in the up position before you close the lid (see my photo at the start of the thread).

With the extra amps of the MTH power brick, the performance seems to be much better on the loop it is connected to.  And unlike the MRC power brick, this brick is in phase with the Z-1000 brick on the other controller since both are MTH.

John

Thanks for the update. Good to know that the MRC controller works with the Z-750 power brick.

Upon further experimentation  it appears that a LionChief + 2.0 won't power up with the booster "ON".

Measured power with the booster ON is almost 18 V and with the booster OFF it is 16.5V

LC+ 2.0 should power up at 18V, but they don't with this combination.  The lights flash once and they don't start up.  Turn the booster off resulting in 16.5V and the LC+2.0 fires right up.  ??

Conventional locomotives run fine with the booster ON or OFF.

I would think that the booster is actually just a resistor that drops the voltage to the variac in the head unit and that turning the booster on bypasses that resistor allowing maximum voltage to the variac.

There is nothing wrong with the Z-750 brick I bought NIB.  I plugged it into the Z-1000 controller and it worked perfectly.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

John

John, the picture of the MRC Throttlepack you posted appears to be a Model 1301-AC.  So far I've been unable to find circuit details about how it varies its output voltage.  As you may know, MTH's Z Controller takes the incoming AC signal and essentially runs it through a PWM switching circuit to reduce the effective output voltage.  If the MRC throttle pack is doing something similar, the boost circuit could be expecting a greater load than the LC presents at idle to work as intended, maybe.  This is purely speculation.  I did find some info indicating that MRC uses switching tech in some of it's other controllers.

It's ok to run Lion Chief locos at 16 volts.  Out of curiosity, what happens if you power up the LC + 2.0 with Boost off, start the loco running and then turn on the boost switch?

@SteveH posted:

John, the picture of the MRC Throttlepack you posted appears to be a Model 1301-AC.  So far I've been unable to find circuit details about how it varies its output voltage.  As you may know, MTH's Z Controller takes the incoming AC signal and essentially runs it through a PWM switching circuit to reduce the effective output voltage.  If the MRC throttle pack is doing something similar, the boost circuit could be expecting a greater load than the LC presents at idle to work as intended, maybe.  This is purely speculation.  I did find some info indicating that MRC uses switching tech in some of it's other controllers.

It's ok to run Lion Chief locos at 16 volts.  Out of curiosity, what happens if you power up the LC + 2.0 with Boost off, start the loco running and then turn on the boost switch?

Thanks for the reply Steve.

Not sure about turning on the booster switch while the LC+ 2.0 is powered up.  Somehow seems risky.

I do know that with the original power pack it was out of phase with the Z-1000 so I had to cut the power cord and reverse the wires.  I didn't do it with the Z-750 brick because I assumed it was in phase with the Z-1000 brick on the other controller.

I think next week (or sooner), I'll just open up the controller and post some photos here.

Thanks,

John

John, according to the manual, the Boost Button is designed be turned on while a train is running to increase the voltage slightly when needed, like when climbing a grade.  I have experimented with changing the voltage going to lion chief locomotives while they're running.  They run fine between 12 to 18 volts, just slower.  An increase from 16 to 18 volts while running on a straight, poses no risk in my opinion, especially if your LC Remote, Legacy controller or app isn't set to full throttle heading into a curve.

If you have concerns, then why not just run at 16 volts?  In my experience it's only a little slower on flat track.

@SteveH posted:

John, according to the manual, the Boost Button is designed be turned on while a train is running to increase the voltage slightly when needed, like when climbing a grade.  I have experimented with changing the voltage going to lion chief locomotives while they're running.  They run fine between 12 to 18 volts, just a slower at lower voltages.  An increase from 16 to 18 volts while running on a straight, poses no risk in my opinion.

If you have concerns, then why not just run at 16 volts?  In my experience it's only a little slower on flat track.

For now I am running it at 16V.  If it won't even start when the booster is on (at 18V) I was thinking it is more than just a voltage issue in that circuit in terms of compatibility with LC+ 2.0.

By the way, the voltage on the track with the Z-1000 and it's power pack at maximum is 16.5V, not 18V

John