Priced Out Of New Purchases

And here we were stuck with a '66 Fairlane and then a '70 1/2 Falcon.

Electroliner, very nice original post. You state a sentiment that is felt by a subsatantial number of members here I would guess.

I simply wait a bit, I don't run out and buy the newest thing....wait a bit and you will find many items with a much lower price. 

Posted by Rob"

 

My Dad could never buy a Lincoln so he bought a Ford Galaxy...

And here we were stuck with a '66 Fairlane and then a '70 1/2 Falcon.

Actually my Dad's first brand new car was a '64 Falcon Station wagon.  Just like my first brand new car was a 74 Corolla.  He didn't get the Galaxy until we were all educated and out of the house.  Same with my Avalon, not until the kids were grown and gone!!! 

I too have to be frugal! On a limited budget and I work. Lost my house to foreclosure this past July, had to move to a cheaper place. Just a temporary layout for now.

I am buying Williams engines at sale prices or going to auction sites and buying Williams before Bachmann. Have to watch for some really great prices right now.

Hoping to have a better paying job real soon, sometime in January.

Lee Fritz

It is a hobby so any money that goes there has to be what I would call extra money.

It is like anything else in life many different pricing points and options.

For example you can buy a new o gauge train from under $100 to well over $1,000. Just like buying a car you have them loaded and those others well they are cars with 4 wheels.

I never could afford the luxury cars and it is no different in my hobby. I settle one what I can afford and look at the used market for deals to get into one of those loaded ones. I fugue it this way I do impact the new market by buying a used train that probably helps someone fund a new train.

sir-I understand where you are coming from-I bought my first new engine 3 weeks ago in 8 years.if charlieo did not have a big sale going I would have pass on it.

I decided to buy only nyc scale items only.

I like the up the most but when you consider the cost of a big boy-challenger-veranda-etc. you are talking 2nd mortgage.

I am on a very strict income and the internet works for me.

o gauge is and always was expensive-compare a ho steamer to the same o scale steamer in price.

save on toilet paper-I stopped using corn cobs and sears catalogs when charming 2 ply

was invented-shower everyday-

walmart can always use you as a greeter to buy your trains.you can hang out on a corner

with a sign saying I will work for toy trains-if you were younger and prettier than you are now-you could do some jone-ing your body.

****-be happy with what you got and do not buy any more trains.2 ply and cable verses a toy train.

11) Use regular instead of premium gas, unless you drive a fancy sports car that requires it, and in that case you probably dont need to cut anyway.

Believe it or not, you are WRONG on this one. MOST vehicles get enough better mileage on Premium to offset the slightly higher cost of the fuel. What you need to calculate is your cost PER MILE for fuel, rather than the cost to fill the tank.

 For as long as I can remember, the price differential between grades, has been fairly consistent at 10-12 cents per gallon, per upgrade, 20-24 cents more for Premium compared to regular. As hard as it is with the price of fuel going up, the difference in Reg and Prem actually decreases, as the price climbs. the difference of 20 cents is a smaller percentage of $3.35/gallon, than it was of $2.25/gallon.

 Don't believe me? your next 2 or 3 fill ups with reg, note the miles driven and the cost of the fill up, then didvide the Dollar amt, by the miles driven. Then for the next 2 or 3 fill ups do the same thing with Prem. Many will be pleasantly surprized, that not only is LESS Expensive to use Premium, you will not stop quite as often for gas, and your car will run better.

 My Best Friend, who has been a Toyota Master Mechanic fo almost 30 years, told me this many years ago, and with very few vehicles excepted, has held true.

TRY IT.

Doug

That is absolutely not true

Joe have you TRIED it? What is not true? YMMV, but the people that I know who have tried it, found it to be true.

Doug

Obviously you don't buy gas in the Chicago area, were the price difference between premium and regular can be as much as 40 cents/gallon.

Add in rush hour traffic variations and the perpetual construction season.  The daily commute is never the same twice.

I'll stick with regular.

Rusty

"Not much different than the automobile market.  I will not buy a Lexus 450 because I prefer to buy a Toyota Avalon at 2/3 the price.  Same car, different name plates. "

Nope 

Nope, I've never bought gas in Chicago, but out here on the West coast, 10-12 cents between grades is typical, in my area the stations that have a more than 25 cent difference between reg and prem are few, and all thier prices are significantly above the avg area prices, and I honestly don't know how they stay in business.

 At 40 cents difference, you may well not recoup the difference in price on mileage alone, but at 20-24 cents, I have, while not a huge savings in cost per mile driven, it is cheaper, and our vehicles run better, and we typically get 40-50+ additional miles between fill ups.

 It may not hold true for EVERYONE, but those that I know who have tried, found it to be true, and of those that Rick suggested it to, almost all found it true with thier vehicles, and those that didn't were close enough to the break even point, they chose to stay with premium, because of the better performance, and better results when doing emissions testing for relicensing.

Doug

I just got thru telling my wife that, other than some electronics (PS2 and ERR RS module) for 2 engines I have, I'm basically done buying what I consider major purchases.  I have 10 engines which is more than I can run by myself and 50+ pieces of rolling stock.  I'd like to get a few more freight cars, but they'll have to be special for me to pay the price.

I had to pass on some 2-rail stuff a couple of months ago because I just couldn't justify spending the additional $$$.

I will be spending a few bucks on landscaping materials, but that's it for the coming year.

The topic here is new train purchases, not automobiles.  Please let's keep to the topic.

The science may be on your side, and as I recall according to science, it is impossible for a Honey Bee to fly.

In my real world experience, it has held true with vehicles and driving conditions as diverse as a 28' class a motorhome pulling a boat, or 26' enclosed trailer, to a Jeep Cherokee, solo and with a 24 travel Trailer, a Ford Explorer with and without various trailers, and as small as a Suzuki Sidekick, in consistent commute use and open highway conditions. ALL experienced an at least small cost benefit from using Premium fuel.

For those interested, give it a try, 2or 3 tanks of premium should not break the bank, and may end up in long term savings.

 At that, I am Sorry for hijacking this thread, and done with the urinating contest.

Doug

Heh:

1) Get basic cable TV, or cancel it.

Network TV fries your brain, especially Morning Shows that have been proven to lower a humans IQ. Animals are not affected as they are smart enough not to watch it. SO cancel cable TV, or better yet, if you live in an urban area, buy an amplified digital set of rabbit ears, or put the large version in yoru attic.

My set of of these $35 in Best Buy gave me better reception than cable or satelite.

I'll keep it, My wife would make life not worth living if I cut off her cable. Also, I like the Hi Speed Internet attached to it.

2) Get rid of that smart phone! Want to do all that fancy stuff? Do it on your PC not your phone! Get a basic flip phone, ditch your data plan and save a ton!

I would but we share a plan w my daughter and it's full boat. So if We are paying for data and text I'm gonna have it in my phone. And sharing the plan is pretty cost cutting anyway. 4 phones on the plan is only $20 more than 2 so we effectively get a plan and 1/2 price plus $10.

3) Watch the thermostat...in winter set the heat to 65' and in summer the AC to 75.

Remember God invented blankets and clothes to keep you warm!

You know it, Wear a sweatshirt and warm slippers at home in winter, a t-shirt and gym shorts in summer.

4) Do not eat out, except for special occassions....all the food is improperly handled any way, soooooo save on medical bills to and avoid Sam and Ella!

We eat at decent non chain places the few times we eat out. no problems.

5) Avoid fast food...it kills, and will save you money.

I hear you there.

6) Mow your own lawn, you need the exercise and will safe much money!

always

7) No soft drinks! They make you fat and poison you, and are illegal in many countrys as it is considered poison.

Drink filtered water from you Bria filtered pitcher and do like Dom Deluise in the movie "Fatso" and put a lemon in it.

Gotta have my Coca-cola, but I have cut back.

8) Quit smoking! Its a nasty habit and expensive...plus it shortens your life, makes your fingers yellow, your teeth yellow and your clothes smell funny...and are expensive!

Agreed, wish I could get my wife to stop.

9) Turn off lights and TV, stereo, PC when not in use!

I am the Electric waste Gestapo. Power in NH is pricey.

10) Avoid expensive red meat, it clogs your arteries, contains mutating hormones that turn you into the blob in need of a colon flush instead of an X Man.

Eat mo chicken!

Steak once a week, Max. burger as a part of something else a couple times a week.

If it doesn't have meat in it, it's what food eats.

11) Use regular instead of premium gas, unless you drive a fancy sports car that requires it, and in that case you probably dont need to cut anyway.

always.

12) Stop buying new clothes and shoes! Buy a good pair of rockport shoes, they last forever. Who needs the latest styles? I am still wearing my $25 Lee Wrangler Denim jacket from 1998, its wool lined and I get compoliments on it. Plus the Fashion Police at work say they are back in style.

My boots are over 5 Yrs old. shoes not quite that. the fashion police go into shock around me.

13) Shower every other day.

You don't want me to do that.

14) Use coupons for grocery shopping, as some kid in england bought 1K of grocerys for $16 !!!

Wife watches the "Extreme couponing" shows but does not spend the time. 

15) Sell yoru old trains you no longer want...yup, thats the best way to come up with money, if you have trains you dont run and dont really want.

If I had some I didn't want I would, got just a couple cars to sell, that's it.

16) Go to a barber and not a hair stylist....better yet cut your own hair or better yet, get a baldie and just shave it every other day for that cool looking Michael Jordon and Stone Cold Steve Austin look.

Every Time.

17) Change your own motor oil.

Try to get rid of it around here...

18) Buy the cheapest toilet paper and paper towels, also cheapest garbage bags.

Cheap is not always the best deal, you may end up using more in the long run.

And we must buy the City bags or they won't take the trash.

Recycle, they take that for free in any container. I have 2 or 3 to one on Recycling VS Trash.

19) Bring lunch to work, dont go out to lunch.

Works, don't always have something to take.

20) Don't buy anything with a credit card! Only buy if you have the money!

Speak it Preacher !  I went for a decade with no credit cards.

I dug out of a lot of debt that way.

Recently got one just to crank the Credit Score, trick is to pay it off every month.

It takes WillPower to not use the thing for more than you have to pay it off with every month. So far so good. Current Balance $210 on a 5K limit. Will pay it off this weekend, get paid once a month.

All this 'Scale Fidelity' is driving these prices. Used to be, 5-6 major components to assemble a 'traditional' basic rail car - trucks, chassis, body, doors (if there were any) couplers and brake wheel. Made for real easy assembly.

Now with scale rail cars, there are trucks, with hoses and rotating bearing caps, chassis with separately applied lines and tanks, bodies with applied grab irons, roof walks, ladders, brake wheels and chains, doors, hatches coupler cut levers, detailed nomenclature printing everywhere that one would prototypically find on prototype. Now you have more labor involved building these cars.

As economies improve in the regions where these are manufactured, the cost are only going to go up. I think we would need to sacrifice some of the add on detail for cast in detail, and forgo some of the fidelity to get the cost to remain afforadable.

I could not afford the $6 catalog price of a 6464 box car in 1966 when I was 10 years old. Today many of those $6 box cars sell for $150 or so, and there are several I still want and plan to buy. It doesn't make sense if I think about it too much....

18) Buy the cheapest toilet paper

Tried that once, took me weeks to recover from all the splinters.

I usually don't reply to these kind of threads.  They show up every several months.

Pick the most expensive flat car short of custom brass and then complain that you are priced out of the hobby.  

There are may price points and ways to enjoy the hobby.  Hopefully we all stay within our means.  For most of us that means carefully shopping around.  Limiting how much we buy (I already have more than I can run).  Buying used (I just picked up a K-Line scale TMCC Hudson for $375).  And only on rare occasion buying a fully detailed scale car.  I also try to buy local roads.

How big is your layout and how many modern scale 70'+++ cars can you run.  Weaver makes very nice 40' and 50' flat cars for less than $50 list price.  They can be found much cheaper on the used market.

Not all of can have super large layouts with top end engines and cars.  I sure enjoy the threads on building these layouts.  They are fun to watch as the layouts are built.

Now count your blessings! and go run your trains.

Dan

Electroliner-

At least you aren't involved in another hobby out there... old cars or even better... pocket watches... I cringe when I see some schmuck wanting $5000 for a brick of $h!7. It's happening more and more. people have old things and they think they're rare. Same with toy trains, but the inverse is true. The newest coolest stuff is mega-bux while the older (see: post war) is in the used junk bin at the LHS.

I absolutely will not spend over $450 on any toys unless they have four wheels and go vroom. As someone else mentioned, that's my truck payment and other things have to come before the hobby.

So yes, yourself along with I and a fair count of other folks are priced out of the upper echelon of this hobby. Just wait a few years for that piece you gotta have, it'll show up eventually at a discounted price in the darndest place you look. For me, IDGAF about the newest coolest stuff (I still can't get over $3k for a "depleating coal load") it's not that big a deal anyways, I'm through buying engines and rolling stock from anywhere than WBB. Even then there'll be no new train purchases this year, or for the forseeable future. (actually thinking about downsizing the items I don't run)

Just relax and enjoy retirement, man, you worked hard for it! Don't worry about the newest and best stuff, just be happy with what you've got...

And no matter what anyone else says, SHOWER EVERY DAY.

I am gratefull to have WBB. The price is right and they are durable in the hands of little kids like my 10 year old son.

I thought WBB did a great job on those GP-30's.

When Trainworld was selling off their O-Gauge WBB F-3's I bought amost of the road names. At that time they were throwing in a free B-Unit

I lucked out a few months age when a customer at a local Hobby Shop brought in his brand new just opened the box Lionel GP-35 with Legacy I was kidding around with him and made a crazyoffer and an hour later the hobbyshop called me and said he would accept my offer!!!!!!!!!

So there are ways to save and enjoy. I am not afraid to buy used.As far as saving money. It is doable without being a miser.

Like quit smoking at $10 a pack(Chicago prices) and a pack and a half a day you could have that "Dream" locomotve in no time. Watch the alcohol. I love a good vintage wine but I don't drink everyday and I use the special corks that suck the air out of the bottle and I can nurse that bottle through a weekend.

Interestingly enough, the armed forces flat cars in the 2013 Lionel catalog come with an MSRP of $64.99.  Just 5-6 bucks less than the aforementioned Atlas O flat car.

Granted, the Lionel cars come with a tarp covered load, so given the simplicity, lack of fidelity and ease of assembly of the time-proven basic Lionel 6511 flat car, they must have one heck of a super-detailed tarp covered load...

Rusty

Chatting with a consultant for the "L" folks he mentioned they are doing their best to bring prices down. But the market is driven by those of us that want a better product right out of the box. If some assembly made it cheaper I might go for it.

Keep in mind the mouldings and trim are costly. If we had more in the hobby prices would come down. That's why we all need to do our part to bring the kids in.

After having my layout on public display for a few weeks now and talking to hundreds of people and add watching the prices of o gauge anything drop over the last 5 years on the used market, anyone who has trains stored in boxes is going lose big time in the future.  There will be a market for newer stuff - a small market, but people younger than me (50) are not coming into the hobby at a significant level.  If they have their dad's or grandfather's trains then they keep those, but most train people I talk to have it in boxes in storage and when I encourage them to start a layout they come up with a myriad of excuses. I only know one person who collects and he is concerned that he has held on to it too long.

i was a kid in the 70s, we built models, had cox airplanes, built stick and tissue planes, my kids don't do this and are not very interested.  Partly as a kid, some encouragement from a parent is helpful and parents these days seem overwhelmed.  The hobby is going to niche down even more from here on out causing no stuff to cost more.  Not much to do about that.  

One other quick observation is that the hobby is quite private.  In is in people's homes, unknown to friends and neighbors.  The hobby will always have an exposure problem.  Hard to grow something that is hidden.

This reply to my post struck me as a tad condescending.I said the car was chosen as illustrative of an overall trend. I can easily find more expensive plastic cars and some here have provided examples so I don't think that is a valid criticism of yours truly.

As far as telling me to count my blessings and go run trains..I was not asking to be patted on the head. I kept editorializing out of this post..all I was curious about was if others were in the same boat. Yes, trains are fun.  

quote:

Believe it or not, you are WRONG on this one. MOST vehicles get enough better mileage on Premium to offset the slightly higher cost of the fuel. What you need to calculate is your cost PER MILE for fuel, rather than the cost to fill the tank.

I've done the math, I get about a ten percent increase in gas mileage with premium fuel, so I buy it when the price differential is less than ten percent.

my wife's car requires a minimum of Plus.

Some folks have written about giving up other things in order to buy more trains. That's not for me, I don't smoke or drink soda because its not good for you. I cut my own grass, and move my own snow because its good exercise.
I already have plenty of trains, I am not going to forgo eating out or buying new clothing so I can buy a toy train.

quote:

After having my layout on public display for a few weeks now and talking to hundreds of people and add watching the prices of o gauge anything drop over the last 5 years on the used market, anyone who has trains stored in boxes is going lose big time in the future.  There will be a market for newer stuff - a small market, but people younger than me (50) are not coming into the hobby at a significant level.  If they have their dad's or grandfather's trains then they keep those, but most train people I talk to have it in boxes in storage and when I encourage them to start a layout they come up with a myriad of excuses. I only know one person who collects and he is concerned that he has held on to it too long.

We can debate the future market till we all turn colors. Nobody really knows what the future will bring. Many collectors have no interest in building a layout, and I guess that some armchair model railroaders are really collectors.

I will concede that prices have fallen on many trains, but I don't care. I purchased my trains because I like them, not as an investment. I do know people who are concerned.

C.W. I could not agree more and think that is the best approach to this hobby.

Some are talking here about product cost as if it is just the nominal dollar amount.  It isn't.  There is a psychological factor to cost as well.

Take a $70 flat car.  To a guy spending $200-300 per month on trains this price isn't that big a deal.  To the guy spending $50 per month though you are talking about having to save up two months in order to purchase it.  At that point the person may start thinking perhaps it would be better to wait another month and get something more expensive...or maybe he will repurpose the funds and spend them, voluntarily or involuntarily, on something non-train related.  Even the guy spending $100 per month might hesitate to purchase a $70 car if it was one that he felt needed to be purchased in multiple units.  The price also impacts where the purchase is likely to be made.  So long as the amount is within the impulse buying range there is a good likelihood it will be purchased from the LHS.  If it is something that is saved for, the chances are that it will be purchased from an internet retailer.

For a manufacturer like GGD/3rd Rail who produce in relatively low volume and distribute through limited channels to those willing to pay more this may not be as much an issue as it is for a manufacturer that produces in greater volume and distributes through a wider network of dealers.

Not true and actually it's a bumblebee, but I digress, and the scientist in me could not let this one slide by!

The basic principles of bumblebee flight, and insect flight generally, have been pretty well understood for many years. Somehow, though, the idea that bees "violate aerodynamic theory" got embedded in folklore.

The story was initially circulated in German technical universities in the 1930s. Supposedly during dinner a biologist asked an aerodynamics expert about insect flight. The aerodynamicist did a few calculations and found that, according to the accepted theory of the day, bumblebees didn't generate enough lift to fly. The biologist, delighted to have a chance to show up those arrogant SOBs in the hard sciences, promptly spread the story far and wide.

Once he sobered up, however, the aerodynamicist surely realized what the problem was--a faulty analogy between bees and conventional fixed-wing aircraft. Bees' wings are small relative to their bodies. If an airplane were built the same way, it'd never get off the ground. But bees aren't like airplanes, they're like helicopters. Their wings work on the same principle as helicopter blades--to be precise, "reverse-pitch semirotary helicopter blades," to quote one authority. A moving airfoil, whether it's a helicopter blade or a bee wing, generates a lot more lift than a stationary one.

The real challenge with bees wasn't figuring out the aerodynamics but the mechanics: specifically, how bees can move their wings so fast--roughly 200 beats per second, which is 10 or 20 times the firing rate of the nervous system. The trick apparently is that the bee's wing muscles (thorax muscles, actually) don't expand and contract so much as vibrate, like a rubber band. A nerve impulse comes along and twangs the muscle, much as you might pluck a guitar string, and it vibrates the wing up and down a few times until the next impulse comes along.

Jerry

How about selling undecorated engines so the purchaser can paint it in the colors of their favorite road.  Maybe have a secondary business selling the decals........who knows...I have the engines & rolling stock I need at this point.  I am safe unless someone starts to produce Aluminum Hoppers.

The Atlas O Pulpwood Flat Cars

MSRP 3-Rail: $57.95
MSRP 2-Rail: $62.95

Atlas O Trainman 62' Bulkhead Flat Car

3-Rail MSRP: $49.95

2-Rail MSRP: $52.95

Those are the only new plastic flat cars in the Atlas O line-up. They do not have an MSRP of $70 in 3-Rail.

Andrew

Railroads do not run everywhere.

Flat cars designed in each decade have specific spotting features.

Cars you might be used to seeing right now might be retired and replaced in 15 years.

It might seem non-descript if you see it every day.

Andrew

Monon Jim, nice idea, but it'll never happen. Many years ago in a conversation I had with one of the train company CEO's he was clear 3-rail modelers want it done for them. Between unpainted figures and the same ones painted, the more expensive painted ones out sell the cheaper unpainted ones. That was 14 years ago.

Outside of Champ, Microscale was the largest O scale decal maker and they've nearly dropped them all. In the words of their owner, O scale decals do not sell - period. I asked, even the Class A railroads and he repeated, even the Class A railroad decals in O scale do not sell. The remaining O gauge train makers have their hands full already without starting a secondary business, when the main player in that business has pulled the O scale decals for sales reasons.

Meanwhile, despite the much better product selection in HO and N, those decals lines continue to be expanded. Makes the words of that train CEO ring true: O gauge modelers want to buy things ready to run.

brianel_k-lineguy, I know but it is an option or at least make the shells available to those who want them.  Nothing I perfect, if it were we would have nothing to talk about in here.   I would, now that I know how would paint my own.....

How soon before the price of 3D printing will be a less expensive option for custom O Gauge and O scale model railroad equipment?

Andrew

Well done, Jerry. Too many inaccurate statements are permitted to go out into the ether without challenge.

Bob