Project Gatsby: Creating a 2-8-0+0-8-2 American Garratt from a USRA 0-8-0

Alright, let's go over the planning stage.

This actually all came together rather last minute in the past few days. After mulling over the idea, I decided on the 2-8-0+0-8-2 wheel arrangement. As mentioned, the main drawback of the Garratt design is a loss of weight as fuel is used; a 2-8-0 design keeps the maximum amount of each half's weight on the drivers, while still having pilot trucks and without getting into a ridiculous amount of drivers (I also would prefer for this to work on O-36 turns, as that's what my club's main layout has, and as a college student I don't have space for my own layout.) I then went into photoshop and made a very rough mockup of what I want the final product to look like.

I reached out to one of the older members of my club, who actually knows how to repair stuff (he actually does the repair work for my local hobby shop), to see if this was even remotely in the realm of possibility. My original idea was to buy a second, identical USRA 0-8-0 to mine (a Lionel Great Northern, #815, from 2003), try to diagram the internal wiring, and splice in the second set of drivers/motors. This has several very obvious problems.

His suggestion was to only power one set of drivers, and let the other set be free-spinning. This will not only make this a considerably easier project, it also allows me to buy parts, instead of a new engine entirely, lowering the cost. So last night, I went browsing on eBay, and stumbled upon an 0-8-0 frame for sale for $45 dollars. I also bought pilot and trailing trucks, and the shell from a slopeback tender for the front.

Expected delivery is Thursday, and then we're diving in!

I think this is going to be an interesting build. I can't wait to see the progress.

I'm going to encourage you. If I can, you can.

2014. Freelance. 2 Industrial Rail 4-4-2 running chassis. Modified weaver flat car body as the boiler frame. Boiler is tank from old Intermountain tank car kit. Pretty much everything else is basswood or styrene. Original rev unit and headlights from one of the locos. Not a fantastic job, but nobody else I know has one.

Keep at it. Be patient. Do not use a donor loco or locos that you treasure - this will inhibit you or scare you off. Find a cheapie or a duplicate. But, really, the worst thing that could happen is that you completely screw it up. You probably won't. Patience.

@jhz563 posted:

Go for it!  I would personally try to power both sets of drivers to get the tractive power effect of a Garratt, and maybe use longer tenders - your phot shop concept doesn't seem to scale out properly in my opinion.  I love the Garratt concept, I had a dream of building on in 15" gangue at one point.  the nice thing about this project is that is can be as simple or detailed as you like.

The pipe details from the center unit to the power unit and back are often a prominent feature, you can see some of this on the SAR NG-G16 below

@D500 posted:

I'm going to encourage you. If I can, you can.

2014. Freelance. 2 Industrial Rail 4-4-2 running chassis. Modified weaver flat car body as the boiler frame. Boiler is tank from old Intermountain tank car kit. Pretty much everything else is basswood or styrene. Original rev unit and headlights from one of the locos. Not a fantastic job, but nobody else I know has one.

Keep at it. Be patient. Do not use a donor loco or locos that you treasure - this will inhibit you or scare you off. Find a cheapie or a duplicate. But, really, the worst thing that could happen is that you completely screw it up. You probably won't. Patience.

Thanks all for the encouragement!

JHZ - That was my original plan, but I think I'm going to pass for simplicity's sake. This is my first time doing anything like this, and rearranging the wiring seems more possible that reconfiguring the wiring. Might try it as a Phase 2 later, though! I agree on the tender size, but I think I'll get a better idea once I have all the parts. That'll definitely make things more clear.

D500 - I actually stumbled upon your original thread while doing some research! It was good confirmation that, at least on some level, it is possible. If you have any wiring diagrams/advice, I'd greatly appreciate it. Part of the reason why I'm using this 0-8-0 is that, eventually, I want to pick up a Lionel (or older K-Line) 4-6-6T (another oddball, I know), which will largely make this engine redundant. And patience will definitely be key here.

Alright, quick update! Did some testing at my club layout, and we have some updates:

First off, the engine will run without the tender! This is a huge relief, as it means I don’t have to mess with the tether if I don’t want to. I had assumed that the motor and smoke unit were in the engine, and all the processing was done in the tender.

Next, I tested it running with the tender in a mock “cab-forward” mode, to see if the chuffing is sensed within the tender, or communicated through the tether. As I suspected, there wasn’t any sound, so it is communicated through the tether. However, the whistle does not rely on the tether, it gets its signal independently through the center rail pickups.

This is fantastic news; the scope of this project has been reduced, from “bats**t crazy” to “likely probable!” At worst, I should be able to get an engine running with a whistle.

I’m now running the 0-8-0 as a “finale” in its current iteration. It’s pulling a 32-car train at 13 volts plenty well, so it should do fine with its extensions and just one motor.  I’ll try to throw together the video of the tests and it running tonight when I get home.

No email in your profile but I have 2 railking 2-8-0 parts locos with motors available in the for sale forum which might be a start

@NYCBuffalo posted:

No email in your profile but I have 2 railking 2-8-0 parts locos with motors available in the for sale forum which might be a start

Thanks for the offer, but I already ordered the parts I need for this! I also want to avoid mixing Lionel and MTH parts for this, and my 0-8-0 is a Lionel

Here's the video of the testing, and the final run as an 0-8-0!

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

If you have any wiring diagrams/advice, I'd greatly appreciate it. Part of the reason why I'm using this 0-8-0 is that, eventually, I want to pick up a Lionel (or older K-Line) 4-6-6T (another oddball, I know), which will largely make this engine redundant. And patience will definitely be key here.

Diagrams? We don't need no stinkin' diagrams!

But, seriously - I have no diagrams. I usually scribble a few working sketches for this and that, but they are truly scribbles. As both my donor locos were powered, I removed one of the rev units, and extended the wires from the remaining unit to the second motor and headlight in exactly the same pattern. This includes the common (frame) and center-rail roller circuits for the track AC for good pickup. That's it. Just do what they did. Sounds so easy. It is - and tedious. I used connectors at each tender so the loco could be disassembled. (This was one of the major flaws of the real Garratts - tons of steam and other connections.)

This loco has no command control, FYI. Not that that would be a problem.

@D500 posted:

Diagrams? We don't need no stinkin' diagrams!

But, seriously - I have no diagrams. I usually scribble a few working sketches for this and that, but they are truly scribbles. As both my donor locos were powered, I removed one of the rev units, and extended the wires from the remaining unit to the second motor and headlight in exactly the same pattern. This includes the common (frame) and center-rail roller circuits for the track AC for good pickup. That's it. Just do what they did. Sounds so easy. It is - and tedious. I used connectors at each tender so the loco could be disassembled. (This was one of the major flaws of the real Garratts - tons of steam and other connections.)

This loco has no command control, FYI. Not that that would be a problem.

That’s my rough plan. Just swap the tech in the engine and tender.

First batch of parts have arrived! Just waiting on the shell for the front tender

@D500 posted:

Diagrams? We don't need no stinkin' diagrams!

But, seriously - I have no diagrams. I usually scribble a few working sketches for this and that, but they are truly scribbles. As both my donor locos were powered, I removed one of the rev units, and extended the wires from the remaining unit to the second motor and headlight in exactly the same pattern. This includes the common (frame) and center-rail roller circuits for the track AC for good pickup. That's it. Just do what they did. Sounds so easy. It is - and tedious. I used connectors at each tender so the loco could be disassembled. (This was one of the major flaws of the real Garratts - tons of steam and other connections.)

This loco has no command control, FYI. Not that that would be a problem.

Diagrams? We don't need no stinkin' diagrams!

nope, …..we just Kamikaze that stuff!!…….BANZAI!!!!!

Pat

Alright, finally had time today to tear open this thing and start planning. I now have the tender’s wiring diagramed. I’m debating on whether or not to try to do the same for the engine, or wait to confirm that I reassembled the tender correctly first.

Good news! The tender is running well, with all sounds working as usual. I guess this gives me the green light to diagramming the engine Thursday, and then get into the actual technical planning!

I gotta be honest...this project makes me want to build one haha I have one 0-8-0. I'll wait to see how yours turns out!!

Well gang, we’ve hit our first major roadblock in the project. And it’s pretty big. The TLDR is that the engine separates at the running boards, not the chassis. Is this something I should have checked much, much earlier in the process? Yes, yes it is.

Thing is, the lower boiler and chassis looks like two different pieces of metal. I feel like I should be able to separate them. But I can’t find the screws to do so for the life of me. I think they may be below the rear motherboard.

I’m going to try to see if I can figure this out, but it’s admittedly not looking great.

Well, I removed the rear board, and there’s nothing under it. Just smooth metal. This leaves me three options:

1. Take a dremil to the side bottom frame, and split the pieces that way. I really, really don’t like this idea.
2. Abandon the project. Which is probably the smart thing, but sunk-cost fallacy, and I really want this to work.
3. Buy another 0-8-0 that does separate at the chassis. Which will probably cost $100+, and bring the project total to near $250. Which as a college student, is really more than I’d like to spend on this.

I’ll mull it over for a couple days and let y’all know.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

1. Take a dremil to the side bottom frame, and split the pieces that way. I really, really don’t like this idea.

This one. But,

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

I’ll mull it over for a couple days and let y’all know.

Do a good bit of this before you cut. I jumped into an ERR upgrade head first. First upgrade I ever did. The end result was functional but ugly as can be. I'm disappointed but the cause of that ugly result was not taking my time. I think you can do this if you look carefully and plan it out.

There's nothing like a non-existent budget to help you discover your hidden resourcefulness that's what I learned after making soul crushing student loan payments while buying a fixer-upper house and owning a second gen Dodge Ram haha

Go to https://www.lionelsupport.com/    Do a parts search for 0-8-0.   The chassis separates from the lower boiler. I run Kadee’s on everything. I had to take quite a bit apart just to be able to fish the factory coil coupler out. It may seem like an odd design the way it’s built. But it gave the the look of a round boiler as you can see air between the chassis and boiler. Take plenty of pictures as you take it apart so putting back what you need there will be less head scratching.

I think this is where the "not for the faint of heart" portion comes in.  I am not sure where you want the front of the boiler to end up.  The biggest problem I see is that motor mounts pretty much where I would expect the front end of the Garratt boiler to reside.  If you have a plan for that, then I say gut the electronics, figure out how to repack them into the boiler barrel.  Then get the dremel, start cutting away that doesn't belong.  This was never a reversible idea - it's a one way ticket!   Save what you can to remount later.  The air pump for example should likely find a new home. 

@Dave_C posted:

Go to https://www.lionelsupport.com/    Do a parts search for 0-8-0.   The chassis separates from the lower boiler. I run Kadee’s on everything. I had to take quite a bit apart just to be able to fish the factory coil coupler out. It may seem like an odd design the way it’s built. But it gave the the look of a round boiler as you can see air between the chassis and boiler. Take plenty of pictures as you take it apart so putting back what you need there will be less head scratching.

Good tip! Did this and found a diagram. Also looks like the middle frame slips over the motor, which makes my life way easier. Will reattempt sometime this weekend.

@jhz563 posted:

I think this is where the "not for the faint of heart" portion comes in.  I am not sure where you want the front of the boiler to end up.  The biggest problem I see is that motor mounts pretty much where I would expect the front end of the Garratt boiler to reside.  If you have a plan for that, then I say gut the electronics, figure out how to repack them into the boiler barrel.  Then get the dremel, start cutting away that doesn't belong.  This was never a reversible idea - it's a one way ticket!   Save what you can to remount later.  The air pump for example should likely find a new home.

Yeah, I noticed that too. My plan as of now is to just deal with it, and have it a bit further back than I'd like. The other option is to attempt to essentially reverse the direction the drivers are facing. Bodge a mount for the pistons (which the diagram also tells me is a separate part, very convenient!) on the other side of the drivers, put the left rods on the right wheels and vice versa, and... hope that that works. That may be part of a phase 2.

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Good tip! Did this and found a diagram. Also looks like the middle frame slips over the motor, which makes my life way easier. Will reattempt sometime this weekend.

Yeah, I noticed that too. My plan as of now is to just deal with it, and have it a bit further back than I'd like. The other option is to attempt to essentially reverse the direction the drivers are facing. Bodge a mount for the pistons (which the diagram also tells me is a separate part, very convenient!) on the other side of the drivers, put the left rods on the right wheels and vice versa, and... hope that that works. That may be part of a phase 2.

Since you are only going for one motor, maybe use the powered chassis in the rear.  The motor could go in the cab space,  build a rear cab bulkhead to hide it.

@jhz563 posted:

Since you are only going for one motor, maybe use the powered chassis in the rear.  The motor could go in the cab space,  build a rear cab bulkhead to hide it.

Interesting suggestion, but I think that'd give the opposite problem, with the cab taking more than half the drivers' space. And with space being at a premium in this mod, I'd rather have a tender that's a bit too big than one a bit too small.

Man, I wish I’d thought of looking for a diagram earlier. That made things so much easier! Got the boiler and chassis separated now, as well as knowing what I need in the tether (looks like six wires; three to replace the tether, three to connect the motor to the board in the boiler. Power wires can be wired from within the tender itself.)

We’re past the point of no return, now!

Working on disassembling the tender now, if I can get the freaking trucks off…

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

Working on disassembling the tender now, if I can get the freaking trucks off…

Post a picture of the tender!  That is something I can probably make a useful suggestion on.

@jhz563 posted:

Post a picture of the tender!  That is something I can probably make a useful suggestion on.

Got it figured out thanks to people on the Lionel Repairs forum (https://ogrforum.com/...0-8-0-tender-6-30842). Thanks though!

I also forgot to take pictures before I left for my hockey game. I’ll post them tomorrow or Tuesday.

Well, here’s the tender guts, as promised. The wires to the speaker came off, and I ended up needing to get one of the guys in my club to solder them back on.

I’m going to make some cuts in the tender baseboard next week, and then it’s assembly time!

After a week of business and nasal congestion, I’ve made a literal breakthrough! Hole for the motor has been cut! First time using a dremel, which was slightly terrifying, but no injuries and three relatively straight cuts. If all the other “points of no return” were remotely reversible, we’re now well past the point of no return.

Gonna take a quick break, before doing some wiring and figuring out how to mount the tender body on permanently!

Looks legit! You're in the thick of it now!

More big cuts! This time, removing the front coupler and original pilot. The coupler was a separate part, so that was easy. The pilot was not, cast in with the frame, and it was very not easy to get rid of.

Time for more dremeling! Had to do two precuts to get the pilot bar out of the way, and then two more cuts to remove the pilot assembly itself. And to add to the difficulty, the cuts had to be a weird angles to keep the coupler’s mount, which I’m planning to reuse for the new trailing truck (cause this is the rear engine). Here’s a before and after (with the before from a few weeks ago…)

And then here’s a mock up and comparison of the framing for the front and rear “engines,” as well as a mock-up of what the rear engine will look like with its electronics.

Next up is cleaning up the rust on the trailing truck, and figuring out the pivots between the frames and boiler. I have work seven of the next eight days, so it’ll probably be a bit from the next update…

Well folks, it’s been a long time between updates, and unfortunately, it’s for good reason. The beginning of the semester has kicked my butt, my grandfather had a minor health emergency (he’s fine now!), and the Garratt is starting to have problems.

As I was touching up my dremil work from my last update, one of the brackets that the siderods slide through snapped. Ordered the replacement part, and that arrived a few weeks ago. However, after that, I discovered that the holes I’d drilled on the tender frame to attach it to the engine’s wheelbase were off. I tried to redrill the correct holes, but that made things worse.

I’ve decided to order a replacement tender frame and recut the holes for the motor, and have a clean redrill of the mounting holes.

One tiny piece of consultation progress is that I added the new wires to the pickups. Unfortunately, I need to wait to do more wiring until I can get the replacement frame.

It’s been a frustrating day, but we’ll get through it.

You got important items holding you up! Take care of that stuff for sure.

I'm late to this update anyway so I'm behind as it is.

Another update, with much better news! My dad suggested using (of all things) a chainsaw sharpener as a file to merge the two pairs of holes together.

I did that, and it looks good! A bit more wiring, and we’re ready for our first test! If I did everything right, the tender should work as before, but now via the engine’s pickups! I’ll report back when I next go to my Club

Well, we got to train club today, and…

…holy ****! I guess it time to rewire the engine and test that next week!

How about that?! That's awesome! Can't wait to see it move!

A bunch more progress on the engine! (assuming that I did everything right…)

Spent today rewiring all the stuff I cut to separate the boiler from the chassis. Grand total of ten wires spliced in and extended: five previously internal wires between the motor and motherboard, two more previously internal wires going from the motherboard to what I’m assuming is the electronics that detected chuffing speed and whatnot, two wires replacing the tether, and a power wire to get the tender pickups to the boiler’s tech.

I intentionally used a ton of excess wire on the connections to make testing easier. I’ll trim it down later. Going to test this tomorrow at my club meeting, and if everything works we should have a running engine!

@BurkusCircus52 posted:

I intentionally used a ton of excess wire on the connections to make testing easier. I’ll trim it down later.

Why have I never done this? I have made my life so much harder than it needed to be!

Any chance we'll get another video if it works??

@BillYo414 posted:

Any chance we'll get another video if it works??

Absolutely!