pros & cons of TMCC

@OTS posted:

I saw a used GP-9 that was TMCC that I liked. I was told.. you don't want that it's TMCC. I got advice from another guy who said "look for a TMCC unit, they are cheaper to buy now that the interest is in Legacy and soon the Base3 unit coming out. I'm seeking some sound advice from those in the know in this hobby to advise me in the right direction. I'm hoping this isn't a Chevy vs Ford issue. Thank you all in advance.

@OTS,

Unfortunately, it is.  The names have changed, in our hobby it's Lionel (TMVC/Legacy) vs. MTH (DCS), but the situation is the same.

On the other hand, the difference between Lionel's TMCC and it's Legacy are like Chevy and Cadillac -- same maker different level of trim.

Mike

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

@OTS,

Unfortunately, it is.  The names have changed, in our hobby it's Lionel (TMVC/Legacy) vs. MTH (DCS), but the situation is the same.

Mike

Mike, the only thing I was told about the TMCC is that coming down an incline you can't control the speed. The only advice I was given so far about MTH is wait for the new unit they are coming out with.. I will be able to run everything with it.. and, it should be around $300 not X amount for a TIU, then an AIU, a hand held... I guess the new Base 3 is going to price out upwards of $500.. I guess I can run everything with the ZW..but, I don't get sound and other features. I'm not looking to throw switches with the hand held.. just the front and rear couplers.

I'm not going to get into the TMCC/Legacy vs. DCS or Lionel vs. MTH things - there are many opinions about this and one can spend eternity following that path.

Just a couple of items that might be helpful...

If you choose to run modern engines with a ZW (or any older transformer), be sure to add a fast-acting circuit breaker and TVS diode.  These are cheap and easy.  Search on the forum - there are plenty of threads about this.

Right now is a difficult time to be getting into 3-rail command control.  Equipment is scarce and expensive due to a number of factors.  (Interestingly, our scale brethren have no such problems with the availability of DCC equipment.)

The TMCC engine will run conventionally just fine.  I don't see anywhere mentioned that you have a command system other than the LC engine.  I'm not sure any of this is relevant if you are running conventional.

@MartyE posted:

The TMCC engine will run conventionally just fine.  I don't see anywhere mentioned that you have a command system other than the LC engine.  I'm not sure any of this is relevant if you are running conventional.

you are correct MartyE.. I am brand new as of this Christmas. I was given an MTH C628. I didn't even have a transformer at that point. Since Christmas I got a rebuilt ZW from a local guy to help get me started. I purchased a Lion Chief new in a box that I liked and I had a post war 2-4-0 that has not been on a track in years. I am building a layout to go around the ceiling of the room. Being brand new I am trying to gain knowledge into the best purchase for a command system. If I get the layout build prior to purchasing a command system I can use the ZW to run what I have for that time being then use the conventional to run accessories in the future.

@OTS posted:

Mike, the only thing I was told about the TMCC is that coming down an incline you can't control the speed. The only advice I was given so far about MTH is wait for the new unit they are coming out with.. I will be able to run everything with it.. and, it should be around $300 not X amount for a TIU, then an AIU, a hand held... I guess the new Base 3 is going to price out upwards of $500.. I guess I can run everything with the ZW..but, I don't get sound and other features. I'm not looking to throw switches with the hand held.. just the front and rear couplers.

It isn't TMCC that determines whether speed is controlled going up and down grades, it's a feature called Odyssey.  Early TMCC locomotives don't have Odyssey, later ones do.  All Legacy has speed control.

On the cost comparison, if you use a DCS remote to control TMCC or Legacy locomotives you'll still need a Lionel Command Base to do so, at least that's the way it's been so far.

If you plan on buying and running locomotives from both manufacturers, on the same layout, and at the same time, consider this: Since the Command Base comes with a Lionel remote in most cases, you'll end up starting out with a complete Lionel Command Set anyway, even if you eventually also add MTH's DCS.

I would get your feet wet with TMCC / Legacy running conventionally, which it will do if you also get a Legacy PowerMaster, then add DCS.

Unfortunately all brand new stuff from both manufacturers is unobtainium right now, and used stuff has been build up to ridiculous prices as a result.

I'm my opinion with all this in mind, your least-costly bet presently, if you want to jump in immediately, is to go with a Lionel Cab-1L with a Base-1L and a Legacy PowerMaster, and do your MTH stuff conventionally first.

Mike

@OTS posted:

being brand new to "O".. I'm a bit dizzy about TMCC, Odessey, Legacy, & MTH.

right now I have a ZW.. 1 MTH, 1 Lion Chief an Atlas and a conventional post war 2-4-0

.. no layout yet.. still setting up the wall brackets for a ceiling layout.

I saw a used GP-9 that was TMCC that I liked. I was told.. you don't want that it's TMCC. I got advice from another guy who said "look for a TMCC unit, they are cheaper to buy now that the interest is in Legacy and soon the Base3 unit coming out. I'm seeking some sound advice from those in the know in this hobby to advise me in the right direction. I'm hoping this isn't a Chevy vs Ford issue. Thank you all in advance.

You're going to get some good (and hopefully helpful) advice from the many command control experts here. It's definitely not me.

However, one bit of friendly advice:  since you are just starting out, take some time to learn about the various control systems and let it all sink in for a while before making any decisions. There is a a lot of expert knowledge here to guide you. Also, as you seem to be aware, control systems are literally changing before our eyes at the moment so there's that.

Bottom line: Run your trains conventionally for now and don't make any snap decisions and hopefully you can filter out the "Ford versus Chevy" stuff that most likely will appear.

Good luck!

If its straight Lion Chief you can't run it conventionally with the ZW. You have to use the power supply that came with it. I discovered that when I was helping my daughter setup her Lionel Chief Polar Express set.

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

It isn't TMCC that determines whether speed is controlled going up and down grades, it's a feature called Odyssey.  Early TMCC locomotives don't have Odyssey, later ones do.  All Legacy has speed control.

On the cost comparison, if you use a DCS remote to control TMCC or Legacy locomotives you'll still need a Lionel Command Base to do so, at least that's the way it's been so far.

If you plan on buying and running locomotives from both manufacturers, on the same layout, and at the same time, consider this: Since the Command Base comes with a Lionel remote in most cases, you'll end up starting out with a complete Lionel Command Set anyway, even if you eventually also add MTH's DCS.

I would get your feet wet with TMCC / Legacy running conventionally, which it will do if you also get a Legacy PowerMaster, then add DCS.

Unfortunately all brand new stuff from both manufacturers is unobtainium right now, and used stuff has been build up to ridiculous prices as a result.

I'm my opinion with all this in mind, your least-costly bet presently, if you want to jump in immediately, is to go with a Lionel Cab-1L with a Base-1L and a Legacy PowerMaster, and do your MTH stuff conventionally first.

Mike

Mike..thank you for the sound advice.. your answer is exactly what I am looking for.. you guys in the know .. having a solid idea of the step by step progression to eventually get there. And, yes..I'm finding as you say that the second hand market is about if not more than the original price. Thanks again. Tom

"If its straight Lion Chief you can't run it conventionally with the ZW. You have to use the power supply that came with it. I discovered that when I was helping my daughter setup her Lionel Chief Polar Express set."

This is correct to the extent that LionChief won't work in conventional.  But you can use the ZW for power and control the LionChief loco with the remote it came with or the Universal Remote (still available at $50 or so).  You cannot control the LionChief loco with the ZW, but it is fine as a power supply.  You don't have to use the DC wall wart that came with the LionChief set if you have an AC power supply that you are using for your other locos.

@Landsteiner posted:

"If its straight Lion Chief you can't run it conventionally with the ZW. You have to use the power supply that came with it. I discovered that when I was helping my daughter setup her Lionel Chief Polar Express set."

This is correct to the extent that LionChief won't work in conventional.  But you can use the ZW for power and control the LionChief loco with the remote it came with or the Universal Remote (still available at $50 or so).  You cannot control the LionChief loco with the ZW, but it is fine as a power supply.  You don't have to use the DC wall wart that came with the LionChief set if you have an AC power supply that you are using for your other locos.

Landsteiner.. I do understand what you are saying.. this was one of the reasons that I bought the Lion Chief..it was in a road name I wanted and it was all inclusive with the remote that came with it which gave me an additional loco without having to purchase the command system to run it. Once the layout is up the ZW can power the layout to run the post war, the MTH C628 without the features and can power the Lion Chief using it's remote to run it. The next step will be to purchase the command system and expand from there. Mellow Hudson Mike gave me a very sound game plan progression which is exactly what I am looking for at this point seeing this stuff is cubic dollars... I sold my '03 Anniversary Harley to gain the cash needed to jump into "O".. and it's going quick...

th

@johnstrains posted:

You're going to get some good (and hopefully helpful) advice from the many command control experts here. It's definitely not me.

However, one bit of friendly advice:  since you are just starting out, take some time to learn about the various control systems and let it all sink in for a while before making any decisions. There is a a lot of expert knowledge here to guide you. Also, as you seem to be aware, control systems are literally changing before our eyes at the moment so there's that.

Bottom line: Run your trains conventionally for now and don't make any snap decisions and hopefully you can filter out the "Ford versus Chevy" stuff that most likely will appear.

Good luck!

Good advice.

There will be those that say get TMCC/Legacy and those strictly in the DCS camp.  I have both because I like engines from both manufacturers.  Unless you are going to stick or lean greatly towards one you'll most likely end up with both at some point depending on your preference.  It might be wise if you are OK running conventional to sit back and wait a bit and see if you do develop a preference.  You can always add another command system if you decide on 1 now.

As Mike said both systems are unfortunately hard to find right now.

Bottom line:

I am an equal opportunity buyer.  If there is an older TMCC locomotive (from Lionel, K-Line, Atlas, or 3rd Rail) and it's something I want in my collection and it's a good price, I buy it.  The electronics can be upgraded to add the modern features later.  Yes it costs some money, but if it's a particularly rare model, or just something you like - it may never be offered again.  There are some excellent models that were made 20+ years ago and throughout the '00s that have often have better motors than today's stuff.

When trying to make a cost based decision for something with TMCC that is available elsewhere with Legacy etc. what I do is factor in about $200 for the electronics upgrade.  In some cases, a simple replacement of the motor controller board with a Cruise Commander M from ERR is all you need.  If you have moderately decent soldering skills this can even be done by yourself.

If the TMCC locomotive you are interested in lists Odyssey as a feature, just go for it.  Odyssey is not as good as the newer Odyssey II that is in Legacy locomotives, and probably not as good as Cruise from ERR - but it's WAY better than nothing, and probably about 85-90% as good as the newer electronics.  FYI, Odyssey/Odyssey II/Cruise is the feature that holds the locomotives speed on upgrades and downgrades.

All that said, there are always caveats... there are just some particular models to avoid entirely - but these are usually limited to known drivetrain issues (cracked or soft gears) or casting issues (zinc pest, crumbling metal, paint bubbling, or surface cracks).  There's a pretty good catalog of those issues here on the forum if you search for them.

P.S. if you are looking at a particular model that is older and can't find anything on it in the search, make a post about it with the Lionel part number (usually 6-xxxxx) and just ask.  You'll likely get a response within a few hours about it.  People are generally helpful with that info.

@rplst8 posted:

Bottom line:

I am an equal opportunity buyer.  If there is an older TMCC locomotive (from Lionel, K-Line, Atlas, or 3rd Rail) and it's something I want in my collection and it's a good price, I buy it.  The electronics can be upgraded to add the modern features later.  Yes it costs some money, but if it's a particularly rare model, or just something you like - it may never be offered again.  There are some excellent models that were made 20+ years ago and throughout the '00s that have often have better motors than today's stuff.

When trying to make a cost based decision for something with TMCC that is available elsewhere with Legacy etc. what I do is factor in about $200 for the electronics upgrade.  In some cases, a simple replacement of the motor controller board with a Cruise Commander M from ERR is all you need.  If you have moderately decent soldering skills this can even be done by yourself.

If the TMCC locomotive you are interested in lists Odyssey as a feature, just go for it.  Odyssey is not as good as the newer Odyssey II that is in Legacy locomotives, and probably not as good as Cruise from ERR - but it's WAY better than nothing, and probably about 85-90% as good as the newer electronics.  FYI, Odyssey/Odyssey II/Cruise is the feature that holds the locomotives speed on upgrades and downgrades.

All that said, there are always caveats... there are just some particular models to avoid entirely - but these are usually limited to known drivetrain issues (cracked or soft gears) or casting issues (zinc pest, crumbling metal, paint bubbling, or surface cracks).  There's a pretty good catalog of those issues here on the forum if you search for them.

P.S. if you are looking at a particular model that is older and can't find anything on it in the search, make a post about it with the Lionel part number (usually 6-xxxxx) and just ask.  You'll likely get a response within a few hours about it.  People are generally helpful with that info.

Thank you for the insight. I was told "warned".. when buying MTH proto 1 to beware.. and to upgrade to proto 2 as you say it's a few hundred dollars to do so.. (the parts, the shop time..etc ). Again as you say.. the question needs to be answered.. is it available elsewhere already? Thank you for the insight. Tom

I'd consider going slow as others have said and get your feet on the ground first.  I started with conventional (as many did), then got into TMCC.  Next I saw a nice DCS locomotive I wanted and ended up getting DCS.  Finally, I bought the Legacy system, and now my current layout runs anything from conventional to any of the mainstream O-scale command systems, TMCC/Legacy or DCS.

If there are train clubs close that run O-scale, I'd consider getting involved, you can pick up a lot of information playing with other people's trains.

I've stuck with the original TMCC on and off for 20 years, and have also ran conventional as well. It is hard ( like others have stated), to find this older equipment now, without paying rediculous prices for what you need if you choose that route.

@OTS posted:

being brand new to "O".. I'm a bit dizzy about TMCC, Odessey, Legacy, & MTH.

right now I have a ZW.. 1 MTH, 1 Lion Chief an Atlas and a conventional post war 2-4-0

.. no layout yet.. still setting up the wall brackets for a ceiling layout.

I saw a used GP-9 that was TMCC that I liked. I was told.. you don't want that it's TMCC. I got advice from another guy who said "look for a TMCC unit, they are cheaper to buy now that the interest is in Legacy and soon the Base3 unit coming out. I'm seeking some sound advice from those in the know in this hobby to advise me in the right direction. I'm hoping this isn't a Chevy vs Ford issue. Thank you all in advance.

Start small as we all did, ah the days of two wires and go.......anyway I like TMCC for two very important reasons. One it is much more reliable and forgiving than DCS and two is TMCC is the unofficial standard in O. MTH is great but it is only MTH, Lionel licensed out TMCC to anyone who wanted it. Also TMCC is a one wire install, with many layouts its hook up and go, also TMCC has many more uses/units that can be added and if you go with Lionel fast track the switches are TMCC ready. No wires to control them just address it like an engine and poof good to go.

@ThatGuy posted:

Start small as we all did, ah the days of two wires and go.......anyway I like TMCC for two very important reasons. One it is much more reliable and forgiving than DCS and two is TMCC is the unofficial standard in O. MTH is great but it is only MTH, Lionel licensed out TMCC to anyone who wanted it. Also TMCC is a one wire install, with many layouts its hook up and go, also TMCC has many more uses/units that can be added and if you go with Lionel fast track the switches are TMCC ready. No wires to control them just address it like an engine and poof good to go.

thank you for this info.. as far as the track goes... I've already begun a sizable purchase into Atlas 3 rail and Ross switches. None of the track is up yet.. I came up with two track plans using AnyRail.. one I absolutely loved but, I would have had to take down a three wall HO shelf layout that I just couldn't justify doing so. So, I decided to go around the ceiling with a shelf ( currently installing the brackets) and hopefully come off the ceiling into a 13'x 6' island mountain that will have a series of loops and figure 8's coming down from 82" to around 42" where the trains will begin and eventually return after running the circuit around the room. That's the plan..

@OTS posted:

thank you for this info.. as far as the track goes... I've already begun a sizable purchase into Atlas 3 rail and Ross switches. None of the track is up yet.. I came up with two track plans using AnyRail.. one I absolutely loved but, I would have had to take down a three wall HO shelf layout that I just couldn't justify doing so. So, I decided to go around the ceiling with a shelf ( currently installing the brackets) and hopefully come off the ceiling into a 13'x 6' island mountain that will have a series of loops and figure 8's coming down from 82" to around 42" where the trains will begin and eventually return after running the circuit around the room. That's the plan..

Ross switches can be made TMCC compatible

I agree with others, given the craziness that is going on right now with command control, you may want to stick with conventional for now so you can run trains. If your engine is LCS (not plus or 2.0), you would simply put 18v to the rails with your current transformer and use the LCS remote. I am facing the same dilemma, as I get near to finishing the track work and get to the wiring and such, I have been debating what to do. I was already planning to wire for conventional block control, since most of my equipment is conventional still (will prob convert as much as I can to Command Control, anything I can't will use either DCS or Legacy powermaster to control them using variable power control) and with not knowing when the new systems will be available, turns out that was prob the right move.

TMCC is the older Lionel command system, it doesn't have all the ability that legacy does, legacy was an extension of TMCC. Legacy command systems, whether the 990 or the new base 3, can control tmcc engines, so that is a no brainer in terms of what you should buy, unless looking for a cheap way to get into command control (the older tmcc base/remote can control legacy engines as well, but only the TMCC based commands).  There is no reason not to buy TMCC equipped engines if you like the engine, if there is a later Legacy model it might have more features than the TMCC one did. One note, as far as I know there is no official way to upgrade an engine to Legacy, most of those who do that scrounge the parts from what I can tell, Lionel doesn't offer a kit.  Note that ERR (now part of third rail) offers kits that allow adding TMCC level control to conventional engines as an upgrade path. Atlas engines (until recently) and Third Rail use TMCC in their engines (Atlas now has some MTH PS 3.0 offerings).

DCS is the MTH system that controls PS 2.0 and 3.0 engines. DCS has one advantage over Legacy, the DCS system can control legacy and TMCC engines, you can hook up the DCS command base to a tmcc or legacy command base and it can control legacy/TMCC engines. In reality you still are wiring both systems to your layout, the only advantage is you are controlling it from a single interface, whether it is a DCS Remote (old, discontinued one or the 'new' remote that is supposed to be coming) or via the DCS APP using wifi, rather than using DCS interface to control PS engines and Lionel base/interface to control lionel. So that means when all this stuff becomes available, you are still buying a complete DCS system and de facto a complete Lionel lionel system (since Base 3 is app only control, the base is the system).

Note that both Lionel and MTH command systems can control conventional engines. DCS has variable ports that through the remote or app you control the voltage to the track, the way a transformer does, you can blow the whistle/horn, reverse the train, anything you can do from the transformer handle. With Lionel the base itself can't do that, you need to buy a Legacy Powermaster, that the Legacy system can talk to, that offers varying power to the track to run conventional engines remotely rather than using the transformer handle. (Why they didn't include that capability in Base 3 I don't know, since they consolidated everything else, unless size was a factor, though the DCS base does that and it isn't particularly big or bulky).

The other thing is you can easily wire for conventional with an eye towards the command system(s) you choose. Legacy is literally you hook it up to the track ground, it uses house wiring as its antenna. With DCS, it is hooked up to the common ground, and it is hooked up to the middle rail as well. DCS has some nuances Legacy doesn't I won't go into,but it is relatively simple to wire whatever you do now (I plan on wiring with the idea I'll have both systems running, prob use DCS to control conventional engines so would have a single DCS output from the variable channels that would feed track power and the DCS signal to each block).

The other thing to keep in mind is what do you require out of the system? Things like speed control are great, but if you have a ceiling layout likely it is flat, not sure odyssey is a requirement, on a layout with grades it might be something you 'have to have' (or cruise commander or whatever). Someone doing a lot of switching will want full control over couplers, someone who runs trains may not care as much. That will determine what you eventually do. If you plan only on having Lionel equipment, then base 3 makes sense , since it controls all their command control engines. If you plan on having both, then it makes sense to have both legacy and dcs control systems. The nice part as I mentioned above, is that deciding to do conventional now and then adding command control is not a problem with either system, so there is no wrong choice.

thank you for that info "That Guy".. until I get my feet wet.. and get over the intimidation of these new remotes.. I plan on the old slide button and push method to move the turnouts.. The other thing that is going to be brand new to me is this "star wiring".. I'm use to a bus wire and drop feeders..done!!!  I see the wiring under most of these layouts on YouTube.. and Wow!!!! ok..well blocks and star wiring to keep the signal strong seems what has to be done. As one poster said..we've come a long way from a lock on and two wires..

@bigkid posted:

I agree with others, given the craziness that is going on right now with command control, you may want to stick with conventional for now so you can run trains. If your engine is LCS (not plus or 2.0), you would simply put 18v to the rails with your current transformer and use the LCS remote.

The other thing to keep in mind is what do you require out of the system? Things like speed control are great, but if you have a ceiling layout likely it is flat, not sure odyssey is a requirement, on a layout with grades it might be something you 'have to have' (or cruise commander or whatever). Someone doing a lot of switching will want full control over couplers, someone who runs trains may not care as much. That will determine what you eventually do. If you plan only on having Lionel equipment, then base 3 makes sense , since it controls all their command control engines. If you plan on having both, then it makes sense to have both legacy and dcs control systems. The nice part as I mentioned above, is that deciding to do conventional now and then adding command control is not a problem with either system, so there is no wrong choice.

The full original reply has been edited.. BigKid.. thank you for that explaination.. The LC is LC+ build date 4/2018. My track plan coming off the ceiling will be a series of loops and figure 8's descending from 82" to 42" giving a 7" clearance between levels .. so, yes.. I could have a run away train if I don't level off once in awhile coming down.

I am so glad your explanation is on my own thread so I can refer back to it from time to time and re read what you've written until I can really wrap my head around the components and really understand what is referred to.

I guess it's like anything.. the new jargon, part names, etc.. one day it all clicks. Thank you again for a really in depth reply.  Tom

@ThatGuy posted:

Start small as we all did, ah the days of two wires and go.......anyway I like TMCC for two very important reasons. One it is much more reliable and forgiving than DCS and two is TMCC is the unofficial standard in O. MTH is great but it is only MTH, Lionel licensed out TMCC to anyone who wanted it. Also TMCC is a one wire install, with many layouts its hook up and go, also TMCC has many more uses/units that can be added and if you go with Lionel fast track the switches are TMCC ready. No wires to control them just address it like an engine and poof good to go.

There are advantages to Legacy/TMCC, but there are advantages to DCS as well (for example, to control conventional engines, it is built into the DCS command base, with Legacy you have to shell out a hundred bucks or more for a powermaster). DCS can control switches as well through their AIU. Sure, Legacy can control fast track switches natively, which is great, but that applies if you like fast track.  Legacy is single wire hookup, but DCS is not exactly rocket science (and Legacy can have interesting problems , like ground plane issues, too).

I am not demeaning or defending either brand, just saying that there are plusses and minuses with each. As far as TMCC being the unofficial standard, that is sort of true, Lionel did license that, which means Atlas and Third rail could build TMCC level engines and people through the ERR kits upgrade engines to TMCC. However, Lionel did not license Legacy and there is no upgrade for that so it is limited. And these days Atlas is licensed for PS 3.0, so they will be making DCS equipped engines too and PS 3.0 is more advanced than TMCC. One advantage of DCS is their control system can control Lionel engines via the Lionel command base, so you can have a single user interface to control dcs or legacy engines (it remains to be seen with Base 3 if DCS can control lionchief engines, too, or just legacy).

@OTS posted:

The full original reply has been edited.. BigKid.. thank you for that explaination.. The LC is LC+ build date 4/2018. My track plan coming off the ceiling will be a series of loops and figure 8's descending from 82" to 42" giving a 7" clearance between levels .. so, yes.. I could have a run away train if I don't level off once in awhile coming down.

I am so glad your explanation is on my own thread so I can refer back to it from time to time and re read what you've written until I can really wrap my head around the components and really understand what is referred to.

I guess it's like anything.. the new jargon, part names, etc.. one day it all clicks. Thank you again for a really in depth reply.  Tom

I am fighting my way through it, too, hopefully allowed me to translate what I have digested. Eventually what I hope to do is upgrade my conventional only engines to TMCC, but in the short term since 99% of my engines are conventional will run that way. If it was available I would probably wire the DCS base into my layout and use it to run my conventional engines, but given nothing is available, will run strictly conventional. Eventually I likely will run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC engines (prob lionchief too), I haven't been buying since spending all my money on building the track and wiring it.

@bigkid posted:

There are advantages to Legacy/TMCC, but there are advantages to DCS as well (for example, to control conventional engines, it is built into the DCS command base, with Legacy you have to shell out a hundred bucks or more for a powermaster). DCS can control switches as well through their AIU. Sure, Legacy can control fast track switches natively, which is great, but that applies if you like fast track.  Legacy is single wire hookup, but DCS is not exactly rocket science (and Legacy can have interesting problems , like ground plane issues, too).

I am not demeaning or defending either brand, just saying that there are plusses and minuses with each. As far as TMCC being the unofficial standard, that is sort of true, Lionel did license that, which means Atlas and Third rail could build TMCC level engines and people through the ERR kits upgrade engines to TMCC. However, Lionel did not license Legacy and there is no upgrade for that so it is limited. And these days Atlas is licensed for PS 3.0, so they will be making DCS equipped engines too and PS 3.0 is more advanced than TMCC. One advantage of DCS is their control system can control Lionel engines via the Lionel command base, so you can have a single user interface to control dcs or legacy engines (it remains to be seen with Base 3 if DCS can control lionchief engines, too, or just legacy).

not at all one transformer will do the job, with DCS you have signal issues and here is another big point. A company or technology that could go poof anytime.

I truly thank all you guys jumping in with your understanding on this issue. There is much to consider. In one way the fact that both systems are going through an upgrade and all will work conventionally (except LC and their own remote but, using conventional to power them) to have some breathing room to build this layout and get used to it conventionally then make a plunge based on the past trials of you all.. may be a blessing in disguise in the long run. I do know I'll probably end up with both systems as some locos are not offered by one single manufacturer. One thing I do know.. as far as steam I probably won't run the really big stuff. The other thing with this track plan I will probably only have two engines running at a time.

Parenthetically, I cannot imagine why anyone would tell you not to buy TMCC locos.  They have been around since about 1996 and there are possibly more of them than any other command system out there, through sheer longevity and Lionel's presence in the marketplace.  Someone who needs precise speed control might not like TMCC locos without Odyssey speed control or someone who is strictly DCS might be negative about TMCC I suppose. Anyway, potentially bad advice in many ways, lacking in nuance, potentially inappropriate to you, depending upon the rationale.

For someone like yourself, new to the hobby, going slowly during this time of transition in terms of committing to particular products for train control makes sense. Conventional works.  It's compatible with LionChief command and all LionChief locos come with a remote.  Lionel's command products are in transition to the Base 3 + cab-1L+cab 3 app.  MTH has fragmented into three companies and the DCS company is still in the creation phase (no website, email, no service for example) and we won't know what the products are until more time has passed.

Reference document.     Click on the underline link to the original reference material provide with TMCC command base set.

Not to confuse you, you CAN run conventional locomotives with Lionel's original TMCC system AND the addition of one more component.  There are a small varieties of this component.  Perhaps the best component is either the TPC400 or TPC300.  These were MARKETED by Lionel for several years.  Through them, the original TMCC handheld can vary the voltage etc. on the track, allowing conventional control.  Lionel also still markets a product to allow control of conventional locomotives through its command control system.  They are called POWERMASTERs, if memory serves me right.  I actually have a new one on order.  It works exactly like the TPC's.  These devices all differ only in the amount of power they can control on their outputs, and the actual way you connect the transformer to the units. Example" TPC300 - 300 watts TPC400 - 400 watts. Powermasters - depends on which one used.  Early one (first) were very limited in power out, and were a little prone to blowing up.  Later Powermasters are practically bomb proof.   Tired of typing for now    Powermasters and TMCC is an excellent way for you to migrate in.  It WILL control your MTH engines if you run them conventionally through the various TPC's or Powermasters.

One other major difference in the PowerMasters.  The Legacy 180W and 360W power receive the track signal just like a train, so there is no wiring to the serial data.  The TPC 300-400 requires a serial data wire from the command base.

@Landsteiner posted:

Parenthetically, I cannot imagine why anyone would tell you not to buy TMCC locos.  They have been around since about 1996 and there are possibly more of them than any other command system out there, through shear longevity and Lionel's presence in the marketplace.  MTH has fragmented into three companies and the DCS company is still in the creation phase (no website, email, no service for example) and we won't know what the products are until more time has passed.

This post has been edited from the original before I replied. The hobbyist giving this advice IS predominately MTH.. taking that into consideration that is why I didn't dig too deep why this advice was given. I did reply .. What do we know for sure where the remnant of this company will go? The answer: we really don't know for sure. Time will tell. And, as you say it's fragmented now and until a short time at all none of really knew what Mike Wolf was going to do with the company. Thank you for your advice. Tom

@Mike CT posted:

Reference document.     Click on the underline link to the original reference material provide with TMCC command base set.

Thank you for this reference.. I will be reading this and perhaps do a "save" to be able to refer back later again. Tom

I stay away from the early TMCC stuff with pullmors. They take considerably more maintenance than a DC motor and do not have the ability to run with cruise control. Even with command control you need to increase & decrease the speed of those engines to operate on a grade. Now if you find TMCC equipment with DC can motors, make sure it has Odyssey speed control and you'll be much happier.

@OTS posted:

being brand new to "O".. I'm a bit dizzy about TMCC, Odessey, Legacy, & MTH.

right now I have a ZW.. 1 MTH, 1 Lion Chief an Atlas and a conventional post war 2-4-0

.. no layout yet.. still setting up the wall brackets for a ceiling layout.

I saw a used GP-9 that was TMCC that I liked. I was told.. you don't want that it's TMCC. I got advice from another guy who said "look for a TMCC unit, they are cheaper to buy now that the interest is in Legacy and soon the Base3 unit coming out. I'm seeking some sound advice from those in the know in this hobby to advise me in the right direction. I'm hoping this isn't a Chevy vs Ford issue. Thank you all in advance.

No reason to avoid TMCC if you like it.  Yes, the TMCC locomotives with pulmor motors do not have cruise control, but they run very nicely nonetheless - like the good quality post war Lionel but with the advantage of nice sounds and the remote control.  Yes, the later Legacy locomotives have speed control and better sound but that is not a reason to not get this unit if you like it.

As far as the Base 3 goes, I think it will be a great thing for hobbyists like you as it will let you control a TMCC, Legacy, and conventional locomotive using one set-up (with Powermasters to vary track power for the conventional set up).  I am not sure why a lot of folks here wanted to pan it.  I know it isn't cheap but what is cheap today - have you bought groceries or lumber lately?

Finally, on the MTH, we have those as well and also an excellent product.  Just like you have your Lionel bashers here, you also have your MTH bashers as well.  It's a Chevy v. Ford thing, as you surmised.  You may still be able to find a DCS unit out there if you can (I would run it in passive mode - get Barry's book on DCS operation to learn more) but if you cannot MTH will be coming out with an updated control unit that has the wifi unit integrated into it.  In the interim you can run a DCS locomotive in conventional mode as well.

Good luck, HTH.

One of the simplest upgrades for early TMCC modular locomotives is the ERR Cruise Commander M to add cruise control.  Superior in operation to the Odyssey I cruise, and can replace either the non-cruise DCDR or the Odyssey I DCDS cruise.