PRR D16sb, Max Gray

Wow that is beautiful.  My first ride on the Strasburg was behind 1223.  I was 3 I think.  Glad you could add that to your collection.  Definitely a wonderful locomotive in an era of bigger is better models.

That is a sweet looking loco!  I wonder if they would have had a jig that let them spin the wheels to paint the circle stripe?  Still would have required a deft touch. 

Fred Dole did a story on a RR club...New Jersey or New York maybe, and he did a follow up on one of the members that had lettered all his scratch built cars, and the gentleman was in his 70s or maybe 80s.

That's a beautiful locomotive.

Yes.  Thank you for the photo essay.  I am about a year away from painting mine, but will use your photos as a guide.

Hand lettering takes serious skill, but doing the stripes requires only moderate skill if you use a straightedge and circle templates.

Steamer posted:

Fred Dole did a story on a RR club...New Jersey or New York maybe, and he did a follow up on one of the members that had lettered all his scratch built cars, and the gentleman was in his 70s or maybe 80s.

Dave,  The gentlemen may have been Robert Wagoner(sp?)  of whatever that long time NY two rail club is.  Many of his cars inspired K-Line and Atlas billboard reefers.    John in Lansing, ILL

I think you are correct John. And IIRC...he didn't even wear glasses.

rattler21 posted:

Steamer posted:

Fred Dole did a story on a RR club...New Jersey or New York maybe, and he did a follow up on one of the members that had lettered all his scratch built cars, and the gentleman was in his 70s or maybe 80s.

Dave,  The gentlemen may have been Robert Wagoner(sp?)  of whatever that long time NY two rail club is.  Many of his cars inspired K-Line and Atlas billboard reefers.    John in Lansing, ILL

The Club is the New York Society of Model Engineers. It was Bob Lavezzi [Then President] that that introduced Fred Dole to the late Bob Wagner and the now infamous reefer Cars that Atlas O recreated!

PRRK4s posted:

Was able to add a fairly hard to come by Max Gray PRR D16sb Class 4-4-0 to my roster. Built by Toby, and only done one time, not the usual KTM builder as other Max Gray models. Of course the 1223 was a common site for many years at Strasburg Railroad and is now stashed away in the museum across the street. The 50+ year old model still looks great. One thing stands out, and in a good way. This thing is hand lettered, and STRIPED! How the heck do people do that. Those lines are straight. The letters are evenly spaced and on a horizontal plane. The stripes on the spokes would be fairly easy to do since its applied to straight spokes. But the circle around the driver tires and pony truck wheel faces? now come on. That's just sick!  😂      

WOW ! That is a Beauty! I wish I had an opportunity to purchase one in 3 Rail.

Re: Hand lettering - You get a lot of "Hand Lining" in the UK.  There is quite a good book on it from Wild Swan:

http://titfield.co.uk/Wild-Swan/Model-Techniques.htm

Scroll down to " A Modellers Handbook of Painting and Lining" by Ian Rathbone.

They also due those great books on modelling trees.

This was a "hurry up" attempt at a D16 for Frank Thomson of Philadelphia.  I have another slightly better one approaching the piping stage.

I have had one for years. I traded a Westside 2-8-0 for it. Both of us were happy with the trade. I told the other guy that the 2-8-0 would not stay on the track and he told me that the 4-4--0 would not pull anything.   

After I had it awhile I got to looking and someone, either the guy I got it from or someone before him, had filled the smokebox with lead wool to try to weight it I guess.      However the smokebox rides over the lead truck, well in front of the first pair of drivers.     I took a business card and ran it along the rail under the rear drivers and it went right through.    They were not setting on the rails!    So essentially it was a 4-2-0!

I cleaned the lead wool out or the front.    Then I turned the loco over and poured cerro-bend (lo melt heavy stuff) into the cab roof.    The loco was unpainted at the time.    This really improved the pulling power.    I can't remember whether it has any other weight to not.   

With Wlathers passenger cars, it could pull one up my 1 1/2 % grade, or about 10-12 freight cars with easy rolling trucks.    Since I acquired the GGD P70s, the loco will pull one P70 and 2 express cars up the grade with ease.    That is its current assignment.   

I did not do so fancy a paint job.   I did do the striping on the cab and tender useing the Champ "Blue Ribbon" K4 decal set for teh striping and lettering.

PRRJIM,  Pics?  I'm not sure what weight is in mine. I know it weighs quite a bit. I don't have a layout, just some test track. One day I'll do a test and try to pull something.

That loco is beautiful, whoever did the lining on it should have signed that masterpiece!!

A great addition to your roster!!

Dave Funk posted:

That loco is beautiful, whoever did the lining on it should have signed that masterpiece!!

A great addition to your roster!!

Ditto !

Here are a couple of photos of my D16.   It has been in service for quite a few years.    As I mentioned above, my paint job was much simpler, using what I could get off the Champ decal set.    It is not nearly so nice as the one above.

As for weight, it is not how much weight that counts, but the distribution of the weight.   It needs to be over the drivers to keep them on the rails, not in the nose.     I don't think mine weighs more than a pound or 2.    I could check it I guess

That does look good.  Now you made me think about notching my running boards.

I do not enjoy working with lead, so mine has a huge slug of brass in the back end of the firebox.  The idea is to have it sit on the drivers without the lead truck installed.  Mine will be tender drive, which leaves room for a huge weight.

By the way, there were 3 still in service near the end of steam.    1223 and 1046, the number I used, and a third I don't have the number for offhand.   1046 was working north of Pittsburgh up to Derry I think.

Nice looking locomotive Jim. If mine wasn't painted like it is I would finish it just the way you acheived the look. Used but not abused. Bob, what do you mean notched running boards?

PRRK4s posted:

Nice looking locomotive Jim. If mine wasn't painted like it is I would finish it just the way you acheived the look. Used but not abused. Bob, what do you mean notched running boards?

Notched Boards... look at the Offset boards from the cab

One of my favorites. I did an article on the rebuilding of a D16sb for O Scale Trains magazine. See the May/June 2018 issue if your interested. Here's a few unpublished photos of my finished engine.

Bob

I have a few hand painted locos and cars, there were some real artists back in the day. My favorite is an Icken E6s. Probably built before WW2

Jim

Both of those are intriguing.  The Flanger D16 has a certain charm to it - guess it is time to figure out when my subscription lapsed.

And the Icken is a masterpiece.

Thanks for the photos!

George Stock who had a hobby shop in Philly did excellent hand lettering and striping, I was in his shop once in the late 60s and saw some examples, quite impressive.

hibar posted:

George Stock who had a hobby shop in Philly did excellent hand lettering and striping, I was in his shop once in the late 60s and saw some examples, quite impressive.

I have three George Stock GG1s that date from the late 30's to the late 40's in HO.  His models were good for the time and not easy to find.  I have yet to find a Stock steam engine.  He was a true pioneer in HO models in the US going back to 1930 and also a master at hand lettering and striping.  Wish my models of his were actually painted by him.

I have a PFM HO  C&O H-6, painted and hand-lettered by Stock. For unknown reasons the base color is dark green. Anyway, i'll keep it til I pass on.

Met Mr Stock once. Lovely guy. Operated his business out of his basement!

I had a Max Berk tender hand lettered for C&O by George.  Put it on eBay, and figured I’d get $200.  Auction was won by an acquaintance, who then put it back on eBay and got the $200 it was worth.  

That is the only time I have been surprised by eBay.  Most of the time I get way more than I expect.

I would love to snag any of the D16's posted.  They're all beautiful executions in hand crafted art.  

I bet the " certain charm " that bob2 mentions has a lot to do with the larger drivers on Flanger's example.  I'm not aware of when the downsizing occured.  Fortunately the changes made were kind to the D16, unlike those committed on old 999.

Did Max Gray, or anyone for that matter, offer an even earlier version from the engine's racing days hauling the Limited?   I'm imagining now gorgeous one on point of a 5 car "Yellow Kid",compliment would look.

Bruce

brwebster posted:

I'm not aware of when the downsizing occured. 

68" drivers vs 80" .  The former for hilly terrain, the latter for flat.  Thanks Interweb!

Bruce

We should get Flanger to do a short writeup here.  Those look like All Nation drivers (70") and domes to me.  I bet it is a nicely done scratchbuilt.

I have an All Nation Atlantic that, as found,doesn't seem to follow any known configuration.  Maybe it's time it did, albeit as an American.

I would enjoy the story behind Flangers D16sb too

Bruce

All Nation did an American based on the B&O Ten Wheeler.  I will look for a photo.  Mine runs so good it substituted at the museum for a week or so of 8 hour days.

Yeah - here you go:  Only thing I did to it was replace the motor and coupling, and Loctite the driver axles and pins.  A real workhorse, if a bit frazzled-looking.

Bob,

I really like the patina on your old locomotives. Natural ageing and finish.

Thanks Bob,

I rushed into thinking a conversion could be made from the AN atlantic.  driver spacing differences would complicate such things way beyond my ability.  Both our engines share the same tenders and many of the major castings.  If I remember correctly some of the white metal details had Varney cast on them.  One honkin chunk of cast brass makes up the boiler including the smoke box front.  My Atlantic served time on the Toronto Model Railway club layout before coming to me.  It ran OK on their layout at a later date and whether in a tunnel or not, the noise let you know it's exact location.

Bruce

Patina?  Man, that poor thing needs new paint and weathering.  Check out my Cab Forward collection on another forum for better paint and decals.

A really good short history of these things appeared in a “wanted” thread, and I tried bribery to get them to move it here, to no avail.

Keep this a secret:

http://www.modeltrainjournal.c...php?f=10&t=16749

bob2 posted:

We should get Flanger to do a short writeup here.  Those look like All Nation drivers (70") and domes to me.  I bet it is a nicely done scratchbuilt.

I think the best way to find out about my D16 is to get hold of the OST issue which I referenced in my original posting. There a complete write-up including some of it's history from when Jerry White first owned it.

Bob