PS-2 conversion questions/WBB GP-9, 6-11-15

A lot of Williams stuff just had the speaker mounted in it's plastic baffle inside the shell, and they were plenty loud.  You might try that and now worry about having holes.

The PS/2 Upgrade has instructions for just tying the volume to full, and yes that only affects conventional use.  For command, you have control of the volume from the remote.

You could move the steel weights up inside the locomotive and mount the speaker in the tank as well if that makes you feel better.

Since the motors may not accept the tach reader mount, what I do is just build up a proper thickness spacer and then super-glue it to the motor in the proper alignment with the flywheel.  I'd put the tach strip on the flywheel first so you don't have to work around the tach reader.

John -

 thanks for the reply. 

I have the wbb speaker, I just had no idea if I could use it or not.  If I can use this speaker and still have room for the ps2 board and battery, its fine with me. 

Also, thanks for the suggestion of just gluing on the tach reader.

John Z.

Is the WBB speaker correct Impedance for PS-2.

You should use the 4 ohm speaker, but you can put it in that plastic baffle for better sound.  Baffling makes a big difference in sound volume and quality.

No, hence my recommendation for using the proper speaker in the WBB baffle.

Now I understand. I thought there was a mismatch with the electrical qualities of the speaker itself, I just never considered trying to put the mth supplied one in the wbb housing.  Tonight/tomorrow morning I will take a look to see if there is enough room to use the original speaker housing and still have room to install the ps-2 boards.

Thanks John

edit - spelling

Okay, day 2, new questions, and some answers.

GRJ -I checked out what you said about the speaker baffle and as expected you are correct, the mth speaker is an exact fit to the wbb baffle.  I am definitely going to use this wbb baffle box.

As to fitting other components, if I retain the baffle box, then I don't have enough room between the motors to use the outboard mounting point for the ps2 plastic bracket.  It looks like If I pop the boards out, (which it says specifically not to do in the instructions), there are additional mounting points inboard in this bracket, and then I could cut off the outboard mounting point.  Does this present a problem other than needing to be carefully with boards?

Next, the heat sink mounting is giving me some heart burn.  There is a clear plastic spacer that was in the heat sink mount. I am not sure where it goes - any suggestions?  The main issue is that the chassis mount for the heat sink comes off to the side of the board assembly.  I am using a narrow body lionel u-boat for my engine shell.  The chassis mount stick out past the side of the shell.  Surely someone else has already dealt with this problem, so I am fishing for known solutions.  Also what "thermally conductive white grease" do you use?

For the battery mounting, is there any reason I can't set it up to be above the boards?  I was even thinking foam taping it to the top of the engine shell.

Last question for this morning, are these instructions online anywhere with color photographs?  Given all the different wire harnesses it would make some of the pictures easier to understand.

Speaker comparison 1

Speaker comparison 2

Board mount interference with forward motor.

Heating sink sticking out past shell location.  (And yes I looked at turning the board around the other direction but that doesn't work with the shell either.)

thank you in advance for your feed back.

John Z

There's no reason you have to keep the outside mounting tabs.  I routinely lop them off for installs.  You do need to have the heatsink secured to the case, and I leave the boards in and use double-sided foam tape to hold the plastic holder secure from the bottom.  The batteries can indeed sit above the boards of that's the place they fit.  You can also get a smaller AAA battery pack that will fit to the outside of the motors. 

I've made custom heatsinks from 1/16" aluminum stock for some locomotives so I could put the screw in line with the heatsink and not off to the side.  There is also a diesel heatsink, but I don't have a part number for it.  The kits all come with the side mount, which is the steamer version.

The clear plastic insulators are for the electrocouplers, in certain installations there is an axle near them that can short to the connections on the coupler.  No insulators are needed for the heatsink for the board.

I use a tub of thermal grease that I got some time back on eBay, most any silicon based thermal grease will do the job.

Thank again John, using the foam tape to secure the boards will definitely make things easier. 

the heat sink is still a problem.  As usual, I am working on things from a hotel room while I am on the road.  I brought a ton of tools, but never thought I would need something like a sheet of aluminum.  Well, at least I have tomorrow off so I should be able to find a supply store somewhere.

I am starting to see this would may have been easier to start with a ps1 engine, but since when have I ever done something the easy way?  This is turning in to quite a learning experience. 

Every conversion usually ends up having a couple of little challenges.

I have done these.  You should have picked an easier one for your first.  I just did a Williams NW-2 and that was a job.  On the GP-9 I always keep the board up about 3/8 of an inch to use under the board as a wire chase.  Make your own heat sink out of flat aluminum stock.  Save space and use a BCR.  Do what John stated on the speaker.

Marty, he'll think the next one is a piece of cake after this one!

One of my early ones was the MTH General, what a PITA that one was.  I had to do a lot of surgery for the tether, the tach reader wouldn't fit, and the tender was barely large enough for the boards. 

John, that would be a tough one.  I am glad you did yours.   I still have that PS-1 General set and have given it some thought.  I was going to hold off until I get the S gauge board in my hands to check out.

It'll be interesting to see an S-gauge board, that might fit in some smaller stuff.  For really small stuff, I don't see why the HO board wouldn't work.  MTH still doesn't have anything that competes with the ERR MiniCommander 2 for small motorized units.

I upgraded a similar Lionel 624.  There was no room for the standard speaker between the fuel tanks, so I got a slightly small Dayton speaker.  I also used a 2/3AA battery to save space.

I mounted an aluminum floor to which the heat sink is attached. 

In lieu of a pot, and to keep the speaker from blasting in conventional, you can replace the pot with a pair of 5000-ohm resistors.  Be sure to insulate the leads.

Pictures of the upgrade were posted on the forum a few months ago.

On the pot, just tie wires 11 and 12 on the 12 pin connector together for full sound.  Robert, is this one with the Timko motor?  I choose the Williams because of the two motors.

Yes it is, Marty.  Thw Williams was probably a better choice to upgrade, but the 624 has sentimental value, and is very smooth.  I figured some of the photos could give the original poster some ideas.

Trouble with full sound is that if, for some reason, the loco starts in conventional, it can blow your ears till you hit startup.  So I use the 2 resistors to give the equivalent of the pot in center position.

Good move.  Those old Lionel switchers were the best running locomotives Lionel ever made.  The motors were very smooth.

Well for right now, I found some thermo-conductive grease at a local autoparts store.  I didn't get off work until 8 o clock and in a strange town so the one place I found open yet to look for aluminum sheet only had aluminum diamond plate. Nice to look at but not what I need. 

Marty I see what you mean about picking something easier to start with, but oh well I am committed now.  Unfortunately nearest train store is a solid hour and a half away and not open on my day off.  So picking up some additional mth parts in a hurry isn't an option. 

Looking ahead I also need to figure out all these lights. The wbb geep just had two big light bulbs.  With cab lights, head lights, ditch lights etc, it looks like I need a bunch of styrene to box the different sections in. And since the lionel u-boat shell has high headlights, I also have to figure out how to run the wires so they aren't over visible. 

GRJ's tag line about thinking these are easy is very true.

Here is a Williams FA-1 with smoke and PS-2 added.  I did drill the fuel tank for the speaker.  Williams do tend to be more roomier.   G

I like adding the smoke, looks like it's pretty packed in there!

okay so here we are for today.

first off, I spend a good deal of time trying to fabricate a new heat sink with what I could find nearby.  Some 1/16" aluminum stock worked well for the base and I cut up the original heat sink to piggy back onto it.  When it goes together the last time, the thermal grease will get applied to both sides of the rectifier, the mating aluminum pieces, and where the aluminum touches the frame.

I have chopped the plastic bracket for the ps2 boards quite a bit.  The outboard mounting tabs are now gone.  I also trimmed a little bit of the sides. This allows for the plastic mount and heat sink to be added.  The trick is that the plastic bracket and heat sink must go on first, then remount the fuel tank, then snap the boards back into the bracket and finish the heat sink install.  Overly complicated but it works. 

Additionally I snapped in the proto couplers to the trucks.  At least something was a direct fit!!

So now I am trying to finish anything that requires chopping up the frame.  Obviously I don't won't to make any more metal chips once the boards are in place. 

So now for the questions

1. any hints one making the rectangular opening for the battery charge connection?

2. I am starting to think I should actually install a pot for the volume control. Can some one tell me the electrical specifications for this? I think there is a radio shack nearby, otherwise I may be able to have a local auto parts store get one to me. 

Any other advice or feedback welcome.

New heat sink set up

Board and heat sink mock'd into position.  Small screw head near middle of plastic bracket is for fuel tank.

Electro coupler mounted on truck

rectangular hole needed for charger opening.

Don't do any drilling with speaker anywhere near the project.

After marking for rectangular, drill smaller pilot holes at corners, followed by 2 larger holes in middle.  At that point small file to square off.

Volume pot is 10K pot.  PS-1, Lionel, PS-2/3 all use 10K.

FWIW, you did not need to manufacture a heat sink, you could have rotated the provided one as you did, you just need to trim a 1/4" off the bottom plate and it would fit without touching the rectifier legs.    G

I drill the hole for the rectangular cutout as large as I can inside the dimensions, then finish it with a small file.  It usually goes pretty fast.

RJR makes a good point, don't have the speaker anywhere close, you'll have chips all over it!

One thing to be aware of, when I started doing these, I put the holes in a bad place a couple of times, I quickly learned to make sure nothing gets in the way when it's fully assembled.

10k pot sounds like it should be easy enough to local source.

As far as a making the rectangular hole, I just had a brain lapse.  Since I am working with limited tools I just don't have a small file on hand.  I remembered the solution about an hour after I posted.

The heat sink had a wrap-round from the top to the bottom.  If I turned it, it didn't fit.

What George is suggesting is to cut a bit off as illustrated below, then it will slip on from the side and bolt in-line with the electronics package.

I do have square drills, but they're only for wood.

On some tight conversions, I skipped the chsrge port, in part because I assembled the unit to get it fit in, snd then didn't want to undo everything to drill the hole.

A way to eliminate the charge port entirely is to use the Digikey supercap that John has referenced in another thread.  Connect it to the board plug cut off the port, put heatshrinkntubing over the leads, and plug it into board.

Guys, I think he did a great job fabricating the bracket.  Remember, this is his first.  I would nix the charging jack and do a BCR.

No doubt Marty, just explaining what George was describing.

I agree Marty, but if you don't tell him he won't know how to make it easier next time!  G

George and John,  this is the guy who we like to help out.  He has asked for assistance and informs us of what he is doing and what he needs help on.   He obviously has a good skill level and the ability to communicate what is going on.  No doubt he will end up with the locomotive he was hoping for.  Many people think doing an upgrade is fun.  It is work especially if someone is taking on an engine that was not made by MTH.  Basic tool skills are needed and the ability to think beyond what is in the instruction book.  I feel that shortly he will show us a video of the finished product.

Gonna' be hard in that hotel room unless he brought track and a transformer.

I agree Marty!  G

First of all, I feel very fortunate to have you gentlemen guiding me along - I could not possible ask for better help.  Thank you very much.  I hope as I progress from the mechanical to the electronic your guidance continues to keep me out of trouble.

And John, of course I brought a box of track and a transformer.  I am just kicking myself that I left the dcs and remote at home!!  Heck I actually noticed my kit box has the micromark rollers in it. So I should actually be able to test to see if the motors are both running in the same direction before going to regular track.

(Actually, not kicking myself about the dcs at all.  You see the dcs and is hooked up to a power strip at home, and the fixed voltage to one loop.  Currently that loop is occupied by my 9 yr old's LC polar express.  This makes it super simple for either my son to run his train, or for my wife to turn on that train to entertain my 16 mo old!) 

Actually I found out that there is a large train club in town that runs at a fairgrounds on Friday and Saturday nights.  So who knows, I might even get this thing programmed before I come home, maybe

You guys are great.  And btw, I found a radio shack with a 10k pot about 25 minutes away.  Unfortunately the shack 2 minutes from the hotel is now closed.  I will post again once I get the pot mounted and start moving to the electronic stuff.  If I do anything tonight it will be to finish the charging jack hole and just solder the speaker leads.

I have a acquired a couple 10k potentiometers.  Unfortunately the Shack had no hardware for mounting these.  My thought is to super glue some plastic to the stationary portion of the pot and then use that new plastic to attach it to the frame.

If there is a simpler or standard solution please let me know.

Other than that this more I finished the mount for the charging jack and I soldered the leads to the speaker last night. I know I could simplify this a little using a bcr but I don't have on with me and I am trying to get as much of this project done as possible while I am on the road.  Also - note to self - next time move the charger connection in another 1/8".  I underestimated the thickness of the shell and had to trim on edge of the charging jack board.

GRJ - the original wbb speaker had a couple spots of hot glue holding the speaker into the wbb baffle.  Do you think this is really necessary?

thanks in advance,

John Z.

If the speaker rattles in the baffle, you'll get some buzzing, that's all.  I wouldn't worry about it until you get it home, it won't hurt anything.

The traditional method of mounting those pots is a little PCB that mounts on a standoff, obviously that's not an option here.

No questions, just an update.

Mechanical changes are just about complete.

The new 10k pot was superglued to a chopped up project box and mounted.  All the new part mounts were to be put into the engine this morning so that the electronic work could begin.  Unfortunately the opening for the pot wasn't perfect and when I tried to turn it so I knew it would adjust later, the dang thing broke.  Fortunately I bought two of them!! 

Anyway here is the frame with the ps2 board holder mounted, the charging jack mounted, and the pot in place, even though it has to be replaced.  I must of put the fuel tank on about six times this morning until I got everything right. ( just to be safe I will cover the screws holding down the board mount with electrical tape.)

Almost time for a track test!  Well, I guess wheels, motor, board, and maybe a speaker would be useful...

I'm impressed you can do this in a hotel room, it would drive me crazy to try to work without tools and materials!