PS1 BOARDS - HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!

The Z-500/750/1000/Controller is not necessarily compatible with PS1 of that early vintage (circa 1994). They need a "pure" waveform.
Note this generally applies to the non-MTH QSI sound boards as well.

See this thread, I just asked the same question. Ultimately, it's what uberstationmeister said.

https://ogrforum.com/...h-mt-2109lp-with-ps1

Hi I would suggest trying a known good board and replace your known good top board. then do factory reset then powerup to 10 voltage and wait for sounds to come up then lower and raise voltage and see if you hear the correect sounds then hit red button and attempt to run engine, are you sure your battery is charging if sound dies when you power up n down your battery is bad or your lower board is not charging you're battery! the boards can be repaired I can help you if you need assistance!

Alan

I had a friend who used the same z1000 you're talking about and it would not change direction when I told him to get Z4000 engines worked perfectly! Alan

@Buco,

Judging by the old Product Number (MT-2137LP) these are old PS-1's, which are even more finicky that the later PS1 stuff.

As a result I would agree that the transformer could make a big difference in this case.

Also consider the fact that MTH, or someone else having a vested interest, issued a "Cautionary Note" after customers started reporting problems when these early units were new.  I'm posting it again, just in case it may help:

As a reminder, for me, these instructions DO NOT WORK for my newer PS-1's.  (In fact they seem to be quite the opposite to what actually works for newer models.)

Mike

If you are getting all functions other than motion, you need to run a 'fix' chip. (not the same as a 'make PS' chip) This is generally not available to the public, But being your from the land down under and no service centers near-by, maybe you can talk MTH into sending you one.

Have you access to a good old fashioned postwar transformer - the kind that kids used back in the 50's and 60's? I would try one of those before tearing into the boards.

Uberstationmeister:  Thanks for getting back with your advice on the Z1000 controller. This may be true, however the biggest stumbling block I have with this theory is the fact that all three AS-616 loco's with their standard (old version) PS1 top and bottom boards will operate correctly when the AS-616 sound chips are removed, and replaced with the EP-5 sound chip.

The Z1000 will run all of them with the "incorrect" sound chip, so I feel there is nothing wrong with the PS1 boards, or the type of transformer, otherwise they just wouldn't move at all!!!!!

PRRick: Your video is exactly what is happening with my three Baldwin AS-616 loco's. It was interesting to note Vernon's comments in your thread about the sound chips. Maybe that is why I can get these three loco's to run properly with the Z1000 when I change out their sound chips for the EP-5 sound chip. Definitely food for thought!!!!

Alan Mancus (Alan): The top and bottom boards are just fine, in my opinion. The real test was when I took out the original sound chips and replaced them with the EP-5 chip. All of the original PS1 boards (top & bottom) showed to be working just fine, and they powered the loco's up and got them running, with all features working. There is something weird about those early sound chips.....in my humble opinion.

PS....the battery is just fine, and is always around 8V....I check it regularly with my multimeter. I also tried running all three loco's using my Z4000....nothing, nada, zip, zilch......but I fully expected this, as I have to use my Z1000 on at least half of my PS1 loco stable to get them to come out of the "re-set" mode, and run properly.

Mellow Hudson Mike (Mike): Thanks for that timely reminder again. And yes, I follow this old instruction to the letter, every time I get another older PS1 loco!!!! I will always take the shell off, disconnect the trucks, grease the gear boxes, oil the axle bearings, oil the pick-up roller pins, AND change-out that old crappy white battery with a newer green MTH battery. Once everything is up and running chassis wise, I remove the green battery and install a new BCR, re-fit the shell, and test run again. End of story.

Chuck Sartor (Chuck): Thank you also for your input, especially about the "secret fix chip". I didn't know about this little bugger!!!  My problem is that all of these loco's will operate just fine if I remove the original AS-616 sound chips, and stick in the old crappy EP-5 sound chip.  This sorta tells me there is nothing wrong with the top or bottom boards in these loco's that needs to be re-set with the "secret fix chip".

RoyBoy (Radio Roy): That is a very interesting proposal!!  The only "old" transformers I have are my faithful Swiss Buco transformers, and I am not sure they will be up to the task. Because they have to get open frame armature and field coil motors to run from a stand-still, they only begin delivering power from the 10V mark upwards, and I'm not sure if this is going to be too high for the PS1 board to come out of "re-set" mode. The other problem I face is, even if my Buco transformer gets the loco moving, there is no bell or whistle buttons, or reverse button (they didn't have sound and other features in these Swiss loco's back in the late 1940's and early 1950's) to activate all of the features - horn, bell, proto couplers etc.

Anyway, your suggestion is on my "to do list" for this afternoon, and I will let you know how it turns out. Fingers crossed, but I'm not hopeful.

Once again, thank you one and all for your suggestions and help, but I need someone out there to tell me why an old EP-5 sound chip will get these loco's to work, when the original AS-616 chips, along with the brand new AS-616 chip I got from MTH last year, will not get these loco's to move.

Peter.....Buco Australia.

@GGG - I wonder if you - as an authorized MTH service technician and a person who's opinion I highly respect - have any thoughts on how Buco's issue can be resolved 'down under', given that Peter lives so far away and has already tried new MTH replacement parts which haven't fixed his problem.

@Buco posted:

Once again, thank you one and all for your suggestions and help, but I need someone out there to tell me why an old EP-5 sound chip will get these loco's to work, when the original AS-616 chips, along with the brand new AS-616 chip I got from MTH last year, will not get these loco's to move.

Peter,

It appears that you, we (other consumers), and MTH have a software problem with the AS-616 sound chips.  Period.

Unfortunately it's quite likely that a replacement purchased from MTH wouldn't work any better.  It seems to me that the software code needs to be tweaked to fix this problem, and that in the time between designing the AS-616 and the EP-5 someone at MTH did so for the EP-5 code but didn't return to the AS-616 to fix it as well.

It would be very rare if your existing chip has had one or more of its bits permanently flipped randomly, in the time since it was manufactured, causing this issue.  It does happen however.  Oddly enough it can occur if hit by a stray cosmic ray from outer space, which I have encountered in the real world, but these are rare.

Mike

I talked to Don at MTH about this issue today and have the following observations:

-Some early PS1 locos do not respond to Z1000 controllers.  They need a pure sign wave transformer like a Z4000.  Don’t know if it related to the chip used, or the board design.

-Can you successfully do an 18 reset using the Z4000?  It’s different than a Zcontroller where you scroll up to feature 18 in the Program mode,  press the Bell button once to hear the voltage cycles, listen for 3 clinks and 3 clanks, press and hold the Bell button until a garbled bell is heard, press the bell button again, then press the Program button, and test.

-The Z4000 can have a high output voltage (10 VAC) until a load is placed on it.  With the loco on the track, the voltage should start at 5 volts when the throttle is cracked.

-I’m working at MTH again tomorrow and if I can convince Don to program one of those chips and test it in a board, I’ll let you know the results.

Update report:

RoyBoy: I tried four (4) other transformers I have yesterday afternoon. Here they are:

My old trusty Buco transformer (no bell/whistle/direction buttons) - Same result, didn't get it to move out of the re-set mode, no matter how many times I tried bringing the power from 10V down slowly.

My old faithful Lionel RS-1 that did run some of my PS1 loco's right back when I first started buying MTH RailKing. Same result.....nothing!! Wouldn't get this loco out of the re-set mode, no matter how slowly I reduced the voltage from the 10V mark.

An unknown model Lionel transformer I purchased some years ago that I never put to use on the layout. Hooked it up and gave it a go. Same result.....nothing, nada, zilch.

The last oddball Lionel transformer from my storage bin. Hooked it up and gave it a go as well. You can probably sense my disappointment all the way over there in America!!!  Same thing again, it would not get the loco to leave the re-set mode.

In all cases, the loco would fire-up with the normal start-up sounds, but as soon as I dropped the power (slowly), all I got was that dam fool two bell chimes, telling me it is still in re-set.

In light of what Mike has said in his post above, I am now seriously considering buying "new" EMD FP-45 (MT-2143LP) sound chips from MTH, and seeing if they will run my AS-616's. I figure the diesel engine sound between these two loco's should be close, and I'm not all that worried if the bell and horn sounds are not 100% accurate. I'm the only one here in Australia that will know the difference, and I will have all three loco's running perfectly with the appropriate diesel engine sound, instead of an electric loco sound (EP-5)

Any thoughts??????????

Peter........Buco Australia.

What do the boards look like in the engines.  I have worked or had these engines come in and they worked fine on my z-4000.  But they had the original board with chip.  Between the firmware in the top board, bottom board signal filtering, and the chip software there can be compatibility issues when mixing parts.  This applies to the early stuff.  Usually you will get clank, clank that indicates a software conflict, but in other case you may not.  Now a new MTH chip should have newer modified software, but at one point a club order a bunch of chip from MTH and they were defective.  Much of this is too difficult to troubleshoot over the forum.  When I have the item in hand and see the board, specifically hear the sounds, specifically know what the board can and cannot do I can usually troubleshoot and fix them.  But some chips will not work in some boards, and those Lionel transformers would be horrible for early PS-1 engines, regardless if they work for some of your engines.  G

This worked perfectly when I pulled it to upgrade my loco to command control. I use a MRC AH601 pure power duel transformer.

Some of the wire were cut right at the board though, not sure how much it would be to send it down under.

I still say nothing will change unless you get a new processor board or run a "FIX' chip cycle through the board.

jon G: Thank you so much for getting involved with my current problem. I will try the reset 18 feature using my Z4000, exactly as you have described, and I will report back.

What I can't understand is why these two AS-616 loco's won't run with their original sound chips (one loco is "brand new" - never been out of the box), but when I swap the original sound chips and use an old EP-5 sound chip, everything works perfectly. Both sound chips (AS-616 & EP-5) are from the same manufacturing time (1990's), however one works, and the others don't!!!! Has to be something to do with the programming in these AS-616 sound chips.

GGG: Thank you also for getting involved. I have attached a couple of photos of one of the AS-616 loco's (not the "brand new" one, but the one with some run time on it) showing the original board and sound chip.

These certainly are "early" versions, as the top board does not have the Molex plugs installed to disconnect the AC power intake (black and red) or the twin DC motor feed wires (white & yellow). All of these wires are permanently soldered to the pins on the under-side of the board.

Darrell: Thank you for the kind offer of your old AS-616 board. I may very well take you up on it. Sue and I will be in The States come June and July this year, and if you live anywhere near our proposed road trip, I will gladly pop in, and take it off your hands.

My E-mail info is in my profile, so if you could send me a message with where you live, we will see if it can be arranged. Thank you again.

Chuck: You may very well be right, but I have no way of getting my hands on this "magic chip" to see if it cures my ills. Unless someone at MTH is prepared to release one from their grip, and send it to me here in Australia...it just remains wishful thinking.

Anyway, in the words of "Big Arnie"......."I'LL BE BACK!!!!"

Peter  (Buco Australia)

Processor board does seem to match the chip vintage, just like Darrell's.  Can't explain it.  G

Jon G:

Tried the factory reset (18) on my Z4000 exactly as you suggested.....got all of the right sounds etc during the reset, and then shut it down. Applied power again from the Z4000.......nothing, nada, zilch!!! Just get the loco diesel engine sound start-up, followed by two bell chimes when I drop power and re-power again, telling me it is still in reset. I can't get that "air release" sound, no matter how slowly I drop the voltage, telling me it's ready to move forward.

Have you had any luck with Don programming a AS-616 chip, and testing it in an old (or even a new) PS1 board???

After my disappointing efforts with the Z4000 yesterday I had to calm my nerves, so I removed the AS-616 chip and inserted the EP-5 chip, just to see this loco move again under its own power.......this works every time, as it did again yesterday!!!

Still open to suggestions, but they are now well and truly thin on the ground.

Peter......Buco Australia   

Instead of struggling with those old boards, I would just put a Williams reverse unit in it. Trainworld had at least one last week.

Peter, I found the light board also, will put that in the box along with the board stack.

@Buco posted:

Darrell: Thank you for the kind offer of your old AS-616 board. I may very well take you up on it. Sue and I will be in The States come June and July this year, and if you live anywhere near our proposed road trip, I will gladly pop in, and take it off your hands.

My E-mail info is in my profile, so if you could send me a message with where you live, we will see if it can be arranged. Thank you again.

You could always get it sent to a forum member and meet to pick it up there.

@RoyBoy posted:

Instead of struggling with those old boards, I would just put a Williams reverse unit in it. Trainworld had at least one last week.

Which does nothing for the sound or protocouplers for this model. If you were going to do that a rectifier is the cheapest and fastest repair, but the features and sounds are part of the fun of these models!

Peter, have you emailed Mike, he's a pretty good person to work with.

@RoyBoy posted:

Instead of struggling with those old boards, I would just put a Williams reverse unit in it.

Roy,

Unfortunately this whole thread is about getting these things to work as they were intended to be used * when MTH manufactured them.

To paraphrase a well-known technical and command specialist, retired, at NASA, bailing out is not an option.

Mike

* Here's a loaded question; Did MTH, whether overtly or benignly, intend for them (AS-616's) not to roll using some transformers, as @Buco has experienced?

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Roy,

To paraphrase a well-known technical and command specialist, retired, at NASA, bailing out is not an option.

Ha! I love that.

Good luck with your struggle.

@Buco posted:

Jon G:

Tried the factory reset (18) on my Z4000 exactly as you suggested.....got all of the right sounds etc during the reset, and then shut it down. Applied power again from the Z4000.......nothing, nada, zilch!!! Just get the loco diesel engine sound start-up, followed by two bell chimes when I drop power and re-power again, telling me it is still in reset. I can't get that "air release" sound, no matter how slowly I drop the voltage, telling me it's ready to move forward.

Have you had any luck with Don programming a AS-616 chip, and testing it in an old (or even a new) PS1 board???

After my disappointing efforts with the Z4000 yesterday I had to calm my nerves, so I removed the AS-616 chip and inserted the EP-5 chip, just to see this loco move again under its own power.......this works every time, as it did again yesterday!!!

Still open to suggestions, but they are now well and truly thin on the ground.

Peter......Buco Australia   

I checked today, and we are very low on PS1 chips, so MTH can’t afford to program a chip just to test it.  I know it’s a pain, but if you send the chip to MTH, they can read the chip and compare it to the code they have on file.  If it’s off, then you can purchase a new chip.  I’ll see if I have any chips in my stash.  If so, I’ll test them in a known good board.

The Force and Fix chips will not correct the problem if a known good chip works in the board. They correct a processor problem.

You might want to contact Bill Vaele and see if he has any suggestions or parts.

Sorry for the slow responses, but life got in the way yesterday (Saturday) again!!!

RoyBoy:  As both Darrell and Mike have stated, it is the other functions that will be lost doing this type of conversion, and I just love the sounds, and those protocouplers!!!

Darrell:  Thank you for finding that extra light board, and adding it to the PS1 board. You still haven't told me how much you need to cover the cost of shipping it to me. Talk to me buddy.....please.

Mellow Hudson Mike: You are sooo right.....and funny as well!!

I have thought about E-mailing Mike  Reagan.....I was in contact with him last year prior to purchasing the new PS1 top and bottom boards, and the now "infamous" AS-616 sound chip. I think I would like to just to let him know the new boards with the new AS-616 chip did not work, right from the get-go.

Bill Veale (MTH Tech here in Australia) was at my house last year when the new board arrived, when I was having trouble with them. He thought the problem was either a "dud" board, or a "dud" chip. As it turned out after extensive testing, the board was OK, but that new AS-616 chip......well, it didn't, and still won't work in any board!!!

Jon G: I am coming over to the States in June and July (another one of our big road trips), and was seriously thinking about calling into the MTH facility with my "dud" AS-616 chip, for proper testing in the workshop.

If it is found to be faulty, I would expect to have it replaced with a chip that does work, however my greatest fear is that any newly programed AS-616 chip may be just as useless, especially if the programming is the fault. Then I will have to wait till I get back home to Australia, insert it in any one of my three non-functioning AS-616 loco's, only to find it doesn't work either....AND HERE WE GO AGAIN!! 

I sure hope you are able to locate a AS-616 chip, and do a test in one of your good PS1 boards, using either the Z4000 or Z1000 controller to get the board to come alive, just to satisfy my curiosity/paranoia.

And yes, I have been in contact with Bill Veale, and he is just as "stumped" as I am about this AS-616 dilemma. It was him who suggested that MTH may have either sold me a "faulty" PS1 board (top or bottom), or a "faulty" chip, and that MTH wouldn't care too much about it, as I was on the other side of the world, and it would be just all too hard to send it back to them. I'd like to think otherwise.

Anyway, as I said earlier, I am coming over in June/July so.......look out!!!

Peter......Buco Australia.

Sorry! @Buco, Life got in the way, the contractors were at the house all day Friday, hopefully they will be done on Monday and I can then get to UPS!

Jon G: quick question.....do I go to MTH 6660 Santa Barbara Rd, Suite 20 Elkridge, MD with my problem???

Is that where you and the workshop are located???

If so, we will be there on Wednesday 19th July around lunch, or early afternoon.

Peter.....Buco Australia

@Buco - I note your intended trip to the USA is still 4 months away. Perhaps by then either MTH or one of their dealers will announce a custom run of a new and improved AS-616, the functions of which all work as intended. If so, IMO MTH should provide you with one for free - after all the trials, tribulations, time and effort you've put into this (not to mention the mental anguish and costs incurred 😫) - trying to resolve the problem.

In all seriousness though, one way or another I sincerely hope you ultimately get THIS engine to run - as Mello Hudson Mike said best - "as they were intended to be used when MTH manufactured them."

Best of luck to you Peter!

Peter, I have a couple of extra 616 chips. If you like I will give you one at no charge, just the cost of the postage to mail it to you. If interested you can contact me thru my email in profile.

PH1975:  Thanks for your thoughts and EXCELLENT suggestion re a new model AS-616!!! 😒

Chuck: I appreciate the offer of a replacement chip, but my concern is that it also won't work in my PS1 boards.

I really think there is a programming issue with this particular chip. I have been swapping the new 616 chip I got from MTH last year into PS1 diesel loco's that run perfectly on the Z1000 and Z4000, and get the same results every time......nothing, nada, zilch. I return the original chip to the loco, and up it starts, and off it goes!!!

I normally love chips (potato, hot, and with chicken salt seasoning) but not this particular "chip"!!!

Watch this space!!!!

Peter....Buco Australia

@Buco posted:

Jon G: quick question.....do I go to MTH 6660 Santa Barbara Rd, Suite 20 Elkridge, MD with my problem???

Is that where you and the workshop are located???

If so, we will be there on Wednesday 19th July around lunch, or early afternoon.

Peter.....Buco Australia

Yes, that is the address.  Don Lockwood will be there and can test the chips.  I only work there part-time when they call me.  

Thank you Jon G.......hope you are "called in" on Wednesday 19th July, as I would love to meet you. I am catching up with Gunrunner John at his home that same morning, so it would be a very momentous day for me.

I hope you can find an old AS-616 chip in your "stach", and test it in a PS1 board using a Z1000 and Z4000, and see what you get.

Chuck: I just watched your video, and I am impressed!!!!! Please tell me, what transformer were you using to get the board out of the re-set phase???? This will have a huge impact on whether I take the risk, and get your chip sent to me here, down-under.

Peter....Buco Australia

Just using a standard Lionel 1033. Put the engine on the track, let it fire up, raise the voltage all the way and then bring it back down, but not off until you hear the air hiss, turn off with the throttle ( not direction button) and then raise it again and it should be running. I just noticed in your pictures you don't have a battery connected. You MUST have a rechargeable battery connected.

Thanks for the description of how you start it up Chuck:

I have heard that some early transformers will get the board/chip to perform properly. I don't have access to any other transformers, other than the ones I showed in my earlier post, and these didn't work.

Is it possible for you to hook-up a Z1000 or even a Z4000 and see if it still behaves properly????

Peter.....Buco Australia

A Z4000 should operate it properly, it was designed for PS1 engines.

Chuck,

Unfortunately, on this model, it doesn't.

To recap, the crux of this entire thread is that this model (AS-616) won't operate with a Z4000, or apparently anything else, in spite of @Buco trying three separate AS-616 chips.  His boards are good because they work fine if he inserts an EP-5 chip.

Mike

Thanks Mike.......you've hit the nail on the head!!!!

I just want to know if there are others out there that can actually run their Baldwin AS-616 (early PS1 board) using a Z1000 or a Z4000???

I strongly believe there is a compatibility issue with the AS-616 chip and the micro processer board.

Something maybe achieved when I visit the boys at MTH in July.....here's hoping!!!

Peter.....Buco Australia