ps2 capacitor question?

This is mainly seen on the earliest PS2 locomotives with 5 Volt boards. Pretty much anything 2005 or later used the newer & more reliable 3 volt boards.2004 was a transition year, I've seen engines made that year with either the 3 or 5 volt boards. 2000 to 2003 will have the older 5 Volt boards.

Look on the bottom of the engine, If you see a round plug single pin charging port it's the older 5 volt and a rectangular two pin port with a notch in the corner indicates a newer 3 volt board.

thanks h1ooo. unfortunately these things I already know.

guess my question should have been. were all the ps2 5 volt boards manufacturered with the bad capacitors or were they just in certain made board batches? or were they used in all the ps2 5 volt boards?

Roger, That's a hard one to answer but I'll give you my experience with the 5 volt boards in my fleet of engines.

I haven't had a single failure yet of a 5 volt board... KNOCK ON WOOD! Of my fleet, about 8 were made in in 2000, two from 2001, and about 6 from 2003. All of these items are in the Railking line and I don't use BCR's in any of these 5 Volt board equipped units. My logic is that charging circuit has to work extra hard right away on every startup to get that BCR charged up, where as a NiMH battery can sit for several months with hardly any energy loss.

The electrical tolerance limits of the components on the 5 volt board are already pushed pretty close to their design limits. I also think that switching the incandescent lights for LED's is a small way to reduce the stress on the components of a 5 Volt board. Watch out for bad speakers that are flaking apart, they'll take out that board quickly if not dealt with promptly.

There were certain numbers of the premier engines that I have noticed here on the forum a few times with a dead 5 volt board board, but that is purely coincidence. You roll the dice with any 5 Volt board, be prepared to replace it if you really like that model of engine.

I believe you're referring to the so-called Capacitor Plague problem around the turn of the century.  This was raw material issue and affected billions of components across multiple capacitor manufacturers.  I can't imagine MTH or similar small manufacturer (vs. PC manufacturers which was the big problem) would have had the logistics/tracing in place to go back and identify which engine models were shipped with boards that used capacitors from a particular lot.

If you search OGR for "WinCap" you can slog thru various discussions, experiences, opinions.  As H1000 says many will report no problems after all these years with 5V boards.  Others have opined that one should be pro-active and change the inexpensive capacitors even if the board works.

I actually have several 5V boards that I've rescued with bulging WINCAP brand capacitors by replacing them before the board croaks.  I don't know what starts them out, but of all pile of dead 5V PS/2 boards I have, a vast majority of them have the WINCAP brand 330uf 35V capacitor.  I lived through the early 2000's capacitor fiasco, I personally replaced probably a hundred bad caps on computer motherboards, normally in time to rescue the board.  I never expected it to bite me years later with model trains.

guys the engine I am looking at was made in 2000 it is a preimer steamer. the owner states it has a new green battery and tires. he also claims it was checked over by an authorized mth tech and was a display model only and never ran or at least only to test. I  just recently got a ps2 3 volt preimer engine from him that was exactly as he discribed. no issues at all and the odometer was just as he described.  so I kinda want to trust his word about this one. I belive he is a small dealer in California. not 100% sure though wether its a store or out of his home.

If this engine is new display only and hardly run at all and it works 100%. should I or could I have the caps replaced if they are marked the wincap brand to keep the ps5 volt system board from croaking? or do I just run it as is knowing that someday they may go bad and croak the board or maybe they dont and the 5 volt board never goes belly up and outlast me. I realize that this could be upgraded to ps3 if it ever croaks,but if I could prevent it now while its still working would it be worth it. the capacitors have to be less than a ps3 upgrade. am I right. if you guys bought it what would you do?

It's a bit tricky to replace the cap, but the parts are cheap.  I can only say if I get a working board with the WINCAP brand cap, I replace it.  FWIW, the only cap I've ever seen that brand in is the largest cap, 330uf at 35V.

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

guys the engine I am looking at was made in 2000 it is a preimer steamer. the owner states it has a new green battery and tires.

What's the product number of the engine your looking at?

Thanks john

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's a bit tricky to replace the cap, but the parts are cheap.  I can only say if I get a working board with the WINCAP brand cap, I replace it.  FWIW, the only cap I've ever seen that brand in is the largest cap, 330uf at 35V.

@gunrunnerjohn do you have a digikey pn/mouser pn that you usually use? and any tips on how to desolder one of these?

Thanks,
Dan

I only have a few 5V PS2's but i won the lottery on one of them.......

They're dirt common caps, I just picked a 330uf 35V cap that was the same size and lead spacing.

To remove them, what I do is separate the boards as much as possible and prop them in that state.  I reach in with flush cutters and nip as much of the lead as I can off from the bottom.  Then I stick my skinny soldering tip under and heat the far lead until the solder flows and tilt the cap toward the outside of the board.  Heat the near lead and tilt it back.  Usually a couple of these and the cap is free.  Trim the new cap leads where they are just a bit longer than the thickness of the board, and tin them so they solder easier.  Clean out the near hole and insert the new cap leaning on the far contact hole that's still solder-filled.  Heat that from under until the lead drops into the board.  Solder the near lead and the job is done.

It sounds longer than it really takes.

@LT1Poncho posted:

I only have a few 5V PS2's but i won the lottery on one of them.......

Looks like you lost the lottery on that one.

I've been fortunate so far. Of the ~6 5v boards I have, none are wincap, most are Panasonic and one other brand of which name escapes me right now.

These range from 2000-2004, railking and premier.

That particular cap seems to be the one that fails most often.  At least 75-80% of the failures of that cap that I've seen have been the WINCAP brand.  Of course, there are other failures of the 5V boards, but that's the top one that comes my way.  I've also got at least half a dozen 5V PS/2 locomotives that still run fine.  Any of those with the WINCAP brand there got a new cap, just in case.  I've also replaced the boards in a few of my 5V PS/2 locomotives when they died.

I’m curious if the ones that fail have been engines that have been idle for a long period? The one that I have that failed had not been run for likely a couple years. My other 5V PS2’s are run regularly so I’m just wondering???

@LT1Poncho posted:

I’m curious if the ones that fail have been engines that have been idle for a long period? The one that I have that failed had not been run for likely a couple years. My other 5V PS2’s are run regularly so I’m just wondering???

It doesn't matter how long it sits or is powered. The capacitor failure is baked into the manufacturing of the capacitor. If it has a failure of the electrolyte to be a stable chemical, it then degrades and begins building up gas pressure inside the sealed container. Again this happens powered, not powered, stored cold, stored hot. It's a chemical reaction happening because the manufacturer messed up- period- end of entire thought.

Read up on it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

"The capacitor plague was a problem related to a higher-than-expected failure rate of non-solid aluminium electrolytic capacitors between 1999 and 2007, especially those from some Taiwanese manufacturers, due to faulty electrolyte composition that caused corrosion accompanied by gas generation; this often resulted in rupturing of the case of the capacitor from the build-up of pressure."

Edit- I'll also add, this is why the industry slowly has gotten away from aluminum electrolytic capacitors and over time other types of capacitors are used- such as Conductive Polymer Aluminum Solid Capacitors

As an example, look at a Railsounds Lite PCB sporting newer style capacitors. They are physically smaller, capable of lower ESR and higher frequency, and typically longer lifespan with less capacitance change over that lifespan.

I've never seen a pattern, though I know that electrolytic capacitors sometimes do benefit from regular power cycles.  Here's a reference with lots of info, saves me a ton of typing.   These pages detail the extremes, obviously many of these products have been around for 20-25 years and their still running with the original capacitors.  However, these references are how industry regards electrolytic capacitors.  As you can see, just sticking them in the closet isn't always the best method of preserving them, they should occasionally run.

Afraid of aging? The effects of time on electrolytic capacitors

Aluminum Electrolytic Capacitor Storage Conditions and Shelf Life

Electrolytic capacitors determine the lifetime of a power supply

@gunrunnerjohn @Vernon Barry the newer boards are NO LONGER electrolyte capacitors? Different type then?

To be clear, I'm not in any way disagreeing with John. He made excellent points. I'm trying to further explain specific circumstances regarding PS2 5V typical failures as I have seen them since I joined the hobby back in 2017.

Again, if a Wincap is going to fail, it's failing because it's baked in the day it was made possibly with a bad electrolyte or other manufacturing defect that fails over time.  It's not to say there cannot be other failures. Again, we kind of have multiple problems. There is the known failure modes and normal lifespan of the entire basic design and class of aluminum electrolytic capacitors. So again, yes, reforming the plates by powering on a regular basis can extend total lifespan. I'm just trying to convey- a Wincap failure because we have some evidence why they fail- there isn't some magic trick that will make it not fail.

Again, you see it all the time here and other forums- also local club members and even just customers walking into the local shop. They brag about buying some new old stock engine, never ran, probably never touched. They fail to do these inspections for replacing the 20 year old battery, the crumbling speaker, and many times- a Wincap already showing the first signs of bulging, but ONLY if you take the time to remove the board and really look at it. So, they power it up and maybe it works. Typically in the first month or so, it pops and fails, killing the PS2 board, and then they walk in the shop and want it fixed, and you have to explain that's a decent repair bill- basically a PS3 upgrade. That new old stock engine just became way less of a good deal or bargain.

@LT1Poncho posted:

@gunrunnerjohn @Vernon Barry the newer boards are NO LONGER electrolyte capacitors? Different type then?

Not all boards have switched, but some have.

Again, look, a BEMC, clearly with aluminum electrolytics

PS3 with a few aluminum electrolytic caps, some super capacitors.

MTH PS3 steam tender board- newer style capacitors

And yes, the later PS2 3V board still used aluminum electrolytics, but because they are a different brand and manufacturing year- we have nowhere near the failure rate as seen in the 5V boards.

picture by @Norton from this topic https://ogrforum.com/...81#83931444265522081

5V on the left with the heatsink aluminum bracket, PS2 3V on the right.

Note that the move to the newer type capacitors isn't universal.  When I did the fix for sound dropouts over switches, I discovered that the new RS-Lite boards went back to the old caps.

New Legacy Steam Locomotive Sound Issue and Fix

Note in the pictures of the new Railsounds board for 2021 and later that the standard aluminum electrolytic caps are still used right up to today.

@gunrunnerjohn i guess its not ALL electrolyte caps, but that particular batch that was bad? I know nothing about this stuff, just trying to reason.

Aluminum electrolytic caps have both a service and shelf life that is the same, 10 years.  If you pick up some NOS caps with a 2015 manf. date, it may not give you the service you expect.  You may get more life from them, but even sitting on the shelf they are deteriorating.  When I was gainfully employed, any equipment with those caps in power circuits, had to be changed out on a 10 year cycle, with a 8-12 year window.  My son, who is now doing the same work I did, just replaced two whole drawers of aluminum caps in a power supply after the first one failed at 7 1/2 years in.  They are good caps, and the reason a 40UF at 450Volts is so tiny compared the the monsters of old, which those old ones did not like to sit unpowered, but the good ones, Cornell Dubilier, Mallory, Sprague of old, would run for decades before failing.

@LT1Poncho posted:

@gunrunnerjohn i guess its not ALL electrolyte caps, but that particular batch that was bad? I know nothing about this stuff, just trying to reason.

There's no way of knowing for sure, but my suspicion is that the WINCAP brand caps were defective from the factory, and they were made in the time period of the great capacitor plague.  I had a bunch of computer motherboards come to me and we replaced all the electrolytic caps before the MB crashed.  There were even kits being sold with all the electrolytics for a specific make/model of motherboard it was so common to have the failures.

That being said, the 20-25 year old capacitors in all the old boards are certainly beyond their sell-by date, and as some point are probably going to be the first components on many old boards to fail.  Many of the hi-fi guys even today are marketing electrolytic cap kits to restore old amplifiers knowing those are the first components to fail.

And yet PS-1 boards with caps are still running fine and they are 30+ years old.  Go figure.  If you do this long enough you know what engine had high rate of failures and which did not.  Bad batch of caps I am sure and for specific run of boards.  After that, a multitude of reasons why 5V boards can fail, yet no real known reason because a lot of them don't.  I still repair engines with good 5V boards and original batteries in them, and flaking star speakers.  Neither means instant death, in fact it would be rare that that is the cause.  And of all my repairs I have only had 1 board die in my presence.  Started up fine.   Shut off to remove shells for work, and then poof, dead.

So despite the constant old wife's tales, the only true fact is a series of these boards with that specific wincap would bulge and the boards """could"""" be dead.  I say could because plenty of folks on this forum had that cap pop, they replaced it and the board lived.   G

@GGG posted:

And yet PS-1 boards with caps are still running fine and they are 30+ years old.  Go figure.

I have electronics with 60 year old electronics with electrolytic caps that are still running, we have no argument there.  I recently replaced the electrolytic caps in my Wavetek 112 sweep generator from the 1960's as it finally has a nasty 60hz waveform instead of the usual selected frequency and waveshape.  New caps and it's as good as new.  It graced my bench for almost 40 years before the caps died and I bought it well used.  I dare say that before any symptoms showed up that the caps had lost a lot of their original value, but they just hadn't affected the output yet.

@GGG posted:

I still repair engines with good 5V boards and original batteries in them, and flaking star speakers.  Neither means instant death, in fact it would be rare that that is the cause.  And of all my repairs I have only had 1 board die in my presence.  Started up fine.   Shut off to remove shells for work, and then poof, dead.

I still have about half a dozen locomotives with 5V boards, they're still running fine, so no argument there.  I have also taken at least two of mine of the shelf that ran perfectly when they were parked and they were stone cold dead when I tried to run them.  One is sitting on my work table right now that appears to be dead, so it's probably at least three.

@GGG posted:

So despite the constant old wife's tales, the only true fact is a series of these boards with that specific wincap would bulge and the boards """could"""" be dead.  I say could because plenty of folks on this forum had that cap pop, they replaced it and the board lived.   G

You're correct, I don't know that the cap failing killed the board, but I do know that I've seen probably at least 25 boards with that particular cap failing, and a vast majority of them had the WINCAP brand cap.  It's certainly not an old wives' tale that the WINCAP brand has way more failures than the other caps on the board, at least certainly not in my experience.

Yes, I have replaced a number of them and had the board live on if it wasn't dead when it came in.  However, if a board has come in dead with the WINCAP swelling/leaking, I have never recovered one of those by replacing the cap, but I usually give it a try anyway.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They're dirt common caps, I just picked a 330uf 35V cap that was the same size and lead spacing.

To remove them, what I do is separate the boards as much as possible and prop them in that state.  I reach in with flush cutters and nip as much of the lead as I can off from the bottom.  Then I stick my skinny soldering tip under and heat the far lead until the solder flows and tilt the cap toward the outside of the board.  Heat the near lead and tilt it back.  Usually a couple of these and the cap is free.  Trim the new cap leads where they are just a bit longer than the thickness of the board, and tin them so they solder easier.  Clean out the near hole and insert the new cap leaning on the far contact hole that's still solder-filled.  Heat that from under until the lead drops into the board.  Solder the near lead and the job is done.

It sounds longer than it really takes.

https://www.mouser.com/Product...cfnnsg7EF0c6lQ%3D%3D

so these would be sufficient?

Thanks - Dan

FWIW I've done alot less repairs but so far of the 5v boards that fried, 4 were courtesy of this cap bulging, 1 was because a previous owner decided to replace their speaker with a 4 ohm one (blew the amp), and 1 just outright died but didnt have the wincap

@DashingDanLIRR posted:

https://www.mouser.com/Product...cfnnsg7EF0c6lQ%3D%3D

so these would be sufficient?

Thanks - Dan

FWIW I've done alot less repairs but so far of the 5v boards that fried, 4 were courtesy of this cap bulging, 1 was because a previous owner decided to replace their speaker with a 4 ohm one (blew the amp), and 1 just outright died but didnt have the wincap

Looks like the right size cap to me.  FWIW, I have the amps for the 5V board if you need one.  Note that the cap may not be all that's wrong with the boards, but I put them in and hope.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Looks like the right size cap to me.  FWIW, I have the amps for the 5V board if you need one.  Note that the cap may not be all that's wrong with the boards, but I put them in and hope.

Thanks! and already replaced that one with a stacker. I'm not even sure I can resolder this one cap correctly, let alone the amp chip . Appreciate the offer though!

Soldering I finally figured out, Unsoldering is still a skill I'm learning

A trick with unsoldering stuff like the amp.  I bend them back and forth to break it off at the PCB, then desolder the pins one at a time.  It's a lot easier than trying to remove the whole thing as one piece.

Excellent suggestion GRJ......I'll keep that trick in mind.

Peter....Buco Australia.

By the time you use enough heat to remove a bad component intact, you may do more damage.  Any bad component that has a visible lead, it is usually better to cut the part out and leave enough lead that you can heat and pull out with needle nose or hemostats.  Same for through hole IC's, just cut the leads next to the package and remove the leads one at a time.  Of course solder wick is a must to clean out the holes, or a good solder sucker, but usually solder wick does a much better job on the first try.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They're dirt common caps, I just picked a 330uf 35V cap that was the same size and lead spacing.

To remove them, what I do is separate the boards as much as possible and prop them in that state.  I reach in with flush cutters and nip as much of the lead as I can off from the bottom.  Then I stick my skinny soldering tip under and heat the far lead until the solder flows and tilt the cap toward the outside of the board.  Heat the near lead and tilt it back.  Usually a couple of these and the cap is free.  Trim the new cap leads where they are just a bit longer than the thickness of the board, and tin them so they solder easier.  Clean out the near hole and insert the new cap leaning on the far contact hole that's still solder-filled.  Heat that from under until the lead drops into the board.  Solder the near lead and the job is done.

It sounds longer than it really takes.

I came across a PS2 5v board with a bad wincap that is still functional (for the moment), I'm looking at how to remove it but how in the world do I get a soldering tip in there with what I think is an inductor in the way.

That inductor is on some long leads, I just gently move the leads out of the way.   You will need to unstick the inductor from the RTV they secured it with, you can put it back when you're done.

I then wedge the boards as far apart as I can without breaking anything.  I trim the capacitor leads close to the board for more clearance and using my needle-point soldering tip I remove the capacitor.  I heat the far lead and rock it toward the edge, then the near lead and rock it back to the middle.  A couple of cycles and you have the cap free.  Clean out the holes and install the new cap.  Again, I test fit the new cap and trim the leads close so that I can get the iron and solder in to solder it into place.