PS3 Startup issues

Tony,

That's interesting.

I've found that some, but by no means all, PS3 engines will occasionally start up by themselves in conventional mode, when power si applied too slowly. However, that appears not to be the case in your situation, since you have the ZW at full power when the TIU powers on.

Also, some newer PS3 engines have a feature where if the thumbwheel is rolled a click, that's enough to start up the engine and begin moving it move forward at the speed on the remote.

Barry, That may be a clue.  I wonder if the ZW, has a "ramp-up" time?  I activate the TIU and ZW at exactly the same time with 1 switch.  I will try turning on the ZW first then the TIU and see if I can get it to exhibit the behavior.  I also think I will try TIU channel 2 since I don't need the variable component of channel 1 for this particular loop.

Thanks for the reply!

Tony

We have 8 post war ZWs that  power up along with the 4 tiu  with the flick of a wall switch(s)  in another room.    All our engines PS-2  never seldom miss the watch dog, even on the var set to fixed.   It must be a PS-3 thing.

Gregg posted:

We have 8 post war ZWs that  power up along with the 4 tiu  with the flick of a wall switch(s)  in another room.    All our engines PS-2  never seldom miss the watch dog, even on the var set to fixed.   It must be a PS-3 thing.

 

And what is even weirder is they never act the same even though they are on the same loop. 

I reported this previously in a thread and my conclusion is that the PS3 engines are more sensitive than the PS2 engines when it comes to getting the watch dog signal. My situation is four major circuits, 2 TIU's in super mode. Power is multiple ZW's. With 20+ engines on the layout, only the PS3 engines miss the signal. A real clue here to me. I also know that this event only occurs on certain areas of the layout. It happens on the circuits with the highest load, such as the roundhouse. Barry has suggested that this may be due to a power limit imposed by the TIU. I'm thinking that charging those capacitors may be part of this also. It is a real PS3 issue with me. But I know I'm a real minority with this issue and I learned to live with it. Run those PS3 engines where they are happy!

So I tried a couple of different things.  First I turned on the ZW and then the TIU.  The E8 started in conventional mode.
Second I powered on the TIU and then the ZW at full throttle.  The E8 started in conventional mode.

I could not try a different TIU channel because when I wired the layout I wanted a neat job and the pig tails won't reach the binding posts for channel 2.  I will have to try that later when I can re-wire.

GHD's post is interesting.  I find that if the E8 is powered off for a period of time, it is more likely to start conventionally.  This could be an indication that charging the capacitors is part of it.

GHD posted:

I reported this previously in a thread and my conclusion is that the PS3 engines are more sensitive than the PS2 engines when it comes to getting the watch dog signal. My situation is four major circuits, 2 TIU's in super mode. Power is multiple ZW's. With 20+ engines on the layout, only the PS3 engines miss the signal. A real clue here to me. I also know that this event only occurs on certain areas of the layout. It happens on the circuits with the highest load, such as the roundhouse. Barry has suggested that this may be due to a power limit imposed by the TIU. I'm thinking that charging those capacitors may be part of this also. It is a real PS3 issue with me. But I know I'm a real minority with this issue and I learned to live with it. Run those PS3 engines where they are happy!

Would it be worth it to put toggles on the TT/ roundhouse  tracks?  At least you could stop them from starting up. I suppose you  now have to start and then shut down each engine?

Gregg posted:

GHD posted:

I reported this previously in a thread and my conclusion is that the PS3 engines are more sensitive than the PS2 engines when it comes to getting the watch dog signal. My situation is four major circuits, 2 TIU's in super mode. Power is multiple ZW's. With 20+ engines on the layout, only the PS3 engines miss the signal. A real clue here to me. I also know that this event only occurs on certain areas of the layout. It happens on the circuits with the highest load, such as the roundhouse. Barry has suggested that this may be due to a power limit imposed by the TIU. I'm thinking that charging those capacitors may be part of this also. It is a real PS3 issue with me. But I know I'm a real minority with this issue and I learned to live with it. Run those PS3 engines where they are happy!

Would it be worth it to put toggles on the TT/ roundhouse  tracks?  At least you could stop them from starting up. I suppose you  now have to start and then shut down each engine?

I was (and still am) trying to avoid that on my layout.  I have a loop that I run a lot of conventional stuff on that I use an AIU and relays to control the power to different blocks but I really didn't want to do that on the main line where everything is Command of some sort.  

It's not a terrible thing, just a bit annoying.  After the engine starts conventionally, it still responds to the shutdown command from the DCS remote.  Then a re-start and all is well.

Tony,

it still responds to the shutdown command from the DCS remote.  Then a re-start and all is well.

there's no need to press Shut Down, unless you want the engine dark and silent. If it comes up in conventional mode, you can just press Startup.

Barry, I always do a shutdown as I recall the funky start up doesn't remember the right sound level for starters. The next time this happens, I'll try just hitting the start button.  I have plenty of toggle switches, believe me. My solution to this problem when a PS3 engine is not on a dead track, is to use it on one of the circuits that it doesn't happen. 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Tony,

it still responds to the shutdown command from the DCS remote.  Then a re-start and all is well.

there's no need to press Shut Down, unless you want the engine dark and silent. If it comes up in conventional mode, you can just press Startup.

I will try that but as GHD pointed out, the sound levels are wrong when it comes up in conventional mode.  I will see if just pressing start up sets everything how I want it.  

Thanks for the tip!

Does anyone know Why this is happening?    Yes I know not all ps-3 engine do it but....it seems quite a few do.

I don't know why, but I can say I only have 3 PS3 engines party due to this. Two are new steamers and one is an upgraded steamer. The one new steamer has never done this and the other two do. I favor PS2 engines with the 3V boards. 

Tony,

 the sound levels are wrong when it comes up in conventional mode.  I will see if just pressing start up sets everything how I want it.  

When it comes up in conventionaL Mode, the sound levels are what is set for conventional operation. Pressing Startup changes to the DCS sound settings.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase  from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Dumb question. If these engines are coming up in the conventional mode, why don't they take off at 18 volts. The lights and sounds come on, but that's it. Is it a partial conventional start up?

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Tony,

 the sound levels are wrong when it comes up in conventional mode.  I will see if just pressing start up sets everything how I want it.  

When it comes up in conventionaL Mode, the sound levels are what is set for conventional operation. Pressing Startup changes to the DCS sound settings.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS Companion 3rd Edition", available for purchase  from many fine OGR advertisers and forum sponsors, or as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

So I have a question about the DCS Companion recommendation.  I have the 2nd edition.  Is there enough new material to warrant purchasing the newest edition?  

And again, thanks for the info!

GHD,

When voltage is supplied in conventional, these engines start up in neutral.

If these engines are coming up in the conventional mode, why don't they take off at 18 volts. The lights and sounds come on, but that's it. Is it a partial conventional start up?

Because DCS engines come up in neutral when started up in conventional, just like any other conventional engine should.

Tony,

I have a question about the DCS Companion recommendation.  I have the 2nd edition.  Is there enough new material to warrant purchasing the newest edition?  

Absolutely!

There's a whole new section on the DCS WiFi App, an Index, more illustrations, and literally hundreds of other additional updates and changes.

Thanks gents. It's been so long since I have run in the conventional mode, I didn't remember that. Maybe I was thinking about the ghost thing where engines take off on their own. My take on that from previous threads here, was that a spark might trigger an engine to start up in the conventional mode and take off. 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Tony,

I have a question about the DCS Companion recommendation.  I have the 2nd edition.  Is there enough new material to warrant purchasing the newest edition?  

Absolutely!

There's a whole new section on the DCS WiFi App, an Index, more illustrations, and literally hundreds of other additional updates and changes.

So you're a sales guy too?  :-)  Sorry, my sense of humor.  Seriously, I appreciate the info.

Tony

So, the plot thickens...

Last night I was playing around and I parked both my PS3 engines on a siding and put a PS1 engine on the main line.  As expected, when I turned on power for PS1 engine, the E8 started in conventional mode.  I shut it down with the remote as I have done before and I thought all was good.  However, when I pressed the direction button to make the PS1 engine move forward, the E8 also moved forward.  It was shutdown and completely dark.  A bit of troubleshooting and it seems that just a shutdown does not completely restore DCS functionality.  I had to go through a shutdown/startup/shutdown sequence to restore good behavior.

On a better note, I am having good results using the variable channels set to fixed mode.  I've only tried it a few times so far but each time I power things up they don't miss the watchdog signal and stay dark.  I won't call this good until I run it through at least a couple of dozen sequences all with different timing.

Tony

Final update.

I tested powering up my system over the course of the last 24 hours with the variable channel set to FXD (Fixed).  I varied the times I waited between power ups from a few minutes to over night.  The PS3 engines all remained dark when I powered up everything.  I then set the variable channel back to variable and the first time I powered on the system, both of my PS3 engines started in conventional mode.

While I don't consider this to be a complete QA test, it appears the way the TIU applies power to the track while in variable mode causes the random startup issues with the PS3 engines.

Fortunately this is not a huge issue.  It is easy to switch between variable and fixed when necessary.  To go to fixed, Menu/System/DCS Setup then select the variable channel and press the FXD key.  The display will tell you wether you are in fixed or variable mode when the button is pressed and will toggle between the 2 with each press of the button.

You can also get out of fixed by selecting the track and varying the voltage with the thumbwheel.  I learned that tip from Barry's DCS Companion guide.

One additional thing I learned:  I had in my head I did not need a siding where I could remove power for the command equipped locos.  If you run just command, maybe you don't.  But I have Pre-War stuff to current and I run it all.  So in my case I have some re-work to do on my layout to accommodate this.  Fortunately for me this only means isolating the siding that is already there.

Tony

The hours will still tally on a command engine sitting on a powered track even when shut down.

John H posted:

The hours will still tally on a command engine sitting on a powered track even when shut down.

I love this forum.  I learn something new every time I read it!

Without looking in Barry's book to be sure, maybe the watchdog signal is not sent when the variable channels are in variable mode and not set to fixed?

Also, as John H stated the clock keeps ticking when track power is on, ideally you should switch power to ALL of your sidings/spurs where you have engines parked, whether they are started up or not. Get switches rated at a minimum of 10 amps and preferably more to avoid future problems.

Without looking in Barry's book to be sure, maybe the watchdog signal is not sent when the variable channels are in variable mode and not set to fixed?

Nope.

The watchdog is sent, on a channel-by-channel basis, for 5 seconds any time the voltage at the output of a TIU channel goes up from zero.

Barry,

Thanks for the clarification, I probably should have looked, but the 'Bible' is upstairs. I have actually been reading the new edition, remembering it all is another problem...