Pulmor's and Transformers

None of those.  I'd run it with a strong postwar transformer, such as an LW.

 

Pete

Agreed.  Two KWs are what I have, with a couple of small ones for accessories and lights.

 

I run a small loop with a few switches and my Z1000 performs quite well with all my postwar power, plus it has a built in circuit breaker, which postwar transformers do not have. There is also not a problem with whistle activation, as the Z1000 controller activates postwar whistles and horns with no problem. Have fun running your trains!

Zach

LW is my favorite single train transformer.

ZW for multiple trains.

My apologies - I should have gone into more detail.

 

What I have is a public accessed layout  in a store. There is a timer that turns the layout on at 7 AM and off at 7 PM. The layout runs through a transformer then a Dallee system that has a pushbutton start and a 5 minute timer, momentum type stuff for those engines without flywheels. I trade out the trains every 2 weeks or so and put a fresh, lubricated train up for the next 2 weeks running. So it's not a home layout that I will be running on my own. In fact, I may not see the thing for several days. 

 

What I am looking for is a dependable power source that for the 12  hours the store is open will be dependable for that amount of time, with a preset speed and not have to be babysat. Controls are not important - dependability is..

 

Thanks

 

Edit here

 

I run various brands of engines - Lionel, Williams, Mth, etc and it is fairly easy for me to switch out the power source depending on what will be running for that session. Again, the important thing is dependability because I 

'm not around for 95% of the time it is running. And I run, or will be running, all era's of trains. All of the sounds, steam, smoke, etc. are of no importance because of the location of this layout.

I stand by my previous statement with even more confidence now. The Z1000 will be perfect for you. The circuit breaker is even more valuable in your situation than in a home layout situation. This way, if your train decides to jump the track, the circuit will trip and no damage will be done, giving someone adequate time to right the train. Good luck with your public display!

Zach

Yea the Z1000. The CW-80 would be a good back up though.

Hey Zach,

I hate to burst your bubble but post war transformers do have a built-in circuit breaker in them! The ZW has a 15 amp breaker but it is attached to the common side and would almost melt something before it tripped. Not sure what amp breaker is in other post war transformers. but they do have one. Look in the tech books for the post war era! 

 

Lee Fritz

Any post war transformer should work if it is rated at 90 watts or higher. However you will need to add faster circuit breakers to the hot side terminal, like a 6 or 7 amp breaker.

 

I like the MTH Z-1000 as I have 2 of them and they work very well and work with newer electronics better as far as whistle & bell.

Atlas & Williams make an 80 watt transformer that is good as well.

 

The Lionel CW-80 might be another good choice but I have heard there are 3 versions of the CW-80 and they work a little differently(accessory voltage control) on each version.

 

Lee Fritz

I have found the postwar Lionel transformers more dependable for me than the MTH Z-1000.  I have put new rollers in the ZWs I have, cleaned and checked out all internals on my VW, KWs, LWs and 1066.  But, my favorite in my prewar Z.  With a good, thorough check out and new AC cords, many Lionel PW transformers are quite

dependable, no sensitive circuit boards to give you problems.  As for circuit breakers, no matter what you use for power, an external CB is always a worthwhile investment, no doubt.

Whatever you do, don't use a modern Lionel transformer. They use a sharks tooth wave form. What this means is that you will have a jarring experience as your pullmor rmotors will run considerably rougher, wear out faster due to the lateral armature vibration, burn out light bulbs faster due to a higher voltage effect, and the e-units will buzz loudly. It's just not worth it!

Thanks to all for the input. I use a Z1000 quite a lot and really do like the thing, however it does seem 2353 doesn't quite run up to snuff when using it. No substantive data to support that statement, just a perception (which could be totally wrong, of course).

 

I have that 140 watt K-line, which is new in the box, but don't know a thing about it, to tell the truth. GRJ had supplied some information about permanently locking the engine in forward and, naturally, the old brain started conjuring up unusual images. One being, having a 2353 locked in forward and one in reverse so I would have dual power, so to speak. That way I could have a powered A-A unit or A-B-A. The reason for doing that is I have a set of aluminum cars that look real nice behind the Santa Fe units, but the thing really has to work pretty hard to get them down the track. Maybe with two powered units it might ease things a bit? 

 

Just doing some mental ruminations, you know.

Forgot to mention that the wave thing is something that is always in the back of my mind, although I know just enough about it to be wrong most of the time. Someday someone may put out a book listing just what engine runs best with which power source. Should be able to hold it down to a couple thousand pages or so, don't you think.

 

Are those postwar transformers dependable enough to run 12 hours a day unattended? I don't have one, but maybe it would be worth the investment - especially if I run some prewar stuff?

Sorry for the mixup! I've never looked at a PW transformer close enough to notice it, and I've always seen the external CBs on the later display layouts so I always assumed they just never built them into the transformers themselves. Again, my most sincere apologies!

Zach

Whatever you do, don't use a modern Lionel transformer. They use a sharks tooth wave form. What this means is that you will have a jarring experience as your pullmor rmotors will run considerably rougher, wear out faster due to the lateral armature vibration, burn out light bulbs faster due to a higher voltage effect, and the e-units will buzz loudly. It's just not worth it!

 

Its called a chopped sign wave.  Modern Lionel transformers work GREAT with postwar equipment.  Its does not cause them to wear out faster.  Th chopped sign wave actually improves the performance of the motor.  It was well discussed on the forum how the new ZW-L (a chopped sign wave) has improved many pulmor powered engines.  You get better low speed performance.  The only issue with Lionel Modern transformers is that they do not play nice with some MTH trains.  This is due to the electronics in the engines not liking the chopped sign wave. 

 

I would recommend any 80 watt or higher transformer for your needs.  The modern ones will have better circuit protection which is a plus.

 

 

 

Joe,
Your statement is not factually accurate apart from your nomenclature in stating it is a chopped sine wave. To concede one, but the only, advantage of a modern Lionel transformer, it will make equipment produce more smoke at a given throttle setting. That is all.
I should post a video demonstating, with no uncertainty, the dramatic difference in performance. The chopped wave transformer will instantly produce significantly more noise, more grinding, and sharper longitudinal and lateral wear inducing peak vibrations in all open frame motors armatures.  I have tested this comparison extensively as I have the ability to instantly toggle between the two. I have tested and observed this issue on hundreds of different locomotives, both my own, and those that come in for repair work. You could, and should, use your own logic to understand this concept. What do you think is smoother? Rolling hills, or a series of sharp cliffs? If you really prefer that grating blender noise from your motor going over a "cliff" 60 times per second, be my guest.

Hi Folks,

 

    I have noticed with an old Marx loco that there is more of the grinding sound with a chopped wave transformer than the pure sine wave, but I would like to know if the chopped wave AC is known to cause damage to old windings due to additional heating, if anyone has any information.  Also, is there any information about filtered DC verses pulse-width modulated DC with these old "universal" motors?

 

    Thanks!

 

Take care, Joe.

Of the four transformers that I mentioned in the beginning of this thread, which are pure sine and which are chopped?

 

cw80

z1000

MRC tech II

K-line power chief

All 4.

Thanks Zach. I just want to keep it friendly and informative.

However there is one other thing to do besides adding in lower amp circuit breakers and that is to add TVS(transient voltage suppressor) units to the output side of the post war transformers, you add the TVS like you short out the circuit but the TVS will not cause a short.

 

Lee Fritz

That's an interesting way to describe what the new transformers do. 

 

In my opinion they overlap the electromive wave somehow and that causes the voltage to stay the same when veiwed on an oscilliscope. A normal AC cycle goes to max positive voltage and then zero and max negative and back to zero, but the new transformers don't allow that pattern to happen somehow.

 

That's why I will stick with the older transformers, no problems like overheating because of an over load of voltage.

 

Lee Fritz

Thanks ADCX Rob:

 

All 4."

 

So my curiosity is piqued. What other variables besides sine and watt output are involved concerning the various transformers that would affect performance? 

 

The reason I ask is because if they are all basically the same, then the engine performance should be about the same. That doesn't seem to be the case, though. The Lionel 2353 seems to run much better with the Tech II than the Z1000. My williams engines, however, run well with both of those transformers. MTH seems to depend on the model and which version of Proto it has installed.

 

Do some of these transformers, as you increase the throttle, migrate gradually from chopped sine to something closer to full sine? I've always thought that a fellow should run the trains with power that they were engineered for, but that might be totally wrong and I don't want to be carting transformers back and forth to the layout depending on which train is running.

 

Which brings me to an earlier question: can you have a postwar Lionel transformer left unattended for 12 hours while people occasionally walk by and push the "start" button? If so, this may be the preferred way to go, especially when I run some earlier prewar Ives and Lionel, which I plan to do. Comments?

I wouldn't have a problem with a PW transformer, BUT I would definitely add a properly sized fuse on the AC line INPUT for any transformer.  The 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker feeding the branch circuit is too large to provide appropriate protection for transformers that are in the 100-200 watt (1 to 2 amps) category.  A fuse or breaker on the output side does not provide any protection from internal problems in the transformer.  (Some transformers have internal overtemperature fuses buried inside the transformer winding, but adding something external covers more bases.) 

This "chopped sine wave" has been a hugely debated topic on these forums. I have yet to see physical proof that it causes harm. As in, scientific proof. But dont worry! Its all going away soon as Lionel is shifting to DC (Have you bought a LionChief yet?).

 

Most newer transformers will have over current and short protections built in that are either self-resetting or quickly reset-able by pressing a button. These fuses also react quickly, which to me is a huge plus when dealing with children.

 

Most postwar like the ZW have zero fusing protections. They wind up with carpet burning "magic". As Dale Manquen suggested, an added fuse in the cord would mitigate some problems.

 

As far as unattended postwar transformers go, you would need to have some sort of active cooling if you are operating hours on end. Especially at 70% or higher loads. You can easily rig up some sort of fan to blow across it. Keep in mind little fingers!

 

For displays, I'd use a Z-4000. Although expensive, they can take a huge beating and can operate for hours due to active cooling. You can operate all manners of your layout on the two accessory outputs plus two lines with voltage and amp displays.

 

Z-1000's are okay. Personally I use one, but I've triggered the thermal limiter on the transformer brick running accessories and train. This was after three hours of operation.

 

We use a modern ZW with our LCCA modular kids group. The only problems with this power pack is the mechanical components are fragile and the four electrical outlets required to power this monster. The benefits to this unit is that it is modular. You can use one to four bricks to power this, making the cost of it variable.

 

CW-80's? AVOID!!!! Probably the most aggrivating transformer I've owned. Although rated at 5 amps output, you'll only get 4 of it as the electronics inside fight you. Good for kids running conventional, but bad for folks with large engines.

Yes.

 

At one point in the early days of Protosound-1, some people with "chopped wave" electronic transformers reported being able to move certain PS-1 engines (that wouldn't otherwise leave their initial power-up state if they saw a chopped wave), by holding the direction button down and advancing the controller to a fairly high setting, then releasing the button, hitting the loco with higher-than-normal voltage. That seemed to satisfy the electronics and allow them to cycle into forward. I don't know if this tactic was consistently effective, though.

 

---PCJ

You didn't say which postwar loco you were running.  Some of them will move on as little as 4V running light, so an LW or ZW might be overkill.

 

I believe the K-Line Power Chief will give you the best slow-speed performance (but also the most noise.)  A long time ago I looked at the output from a K-Line transformer on an oscilloscope, and the waveform is pretty wicked.  Almost 40V peak to peak with a short duty cycle, which lengthens as you turn the knob.  For what it's worth I've run our train around the Nativity with one of these for about 10 years now, and haven't noticed any loosening of the motor laminations or increased gear wear due to the vibration from the chopped wave form.  I do like the increased smoke output and performance!

 

Of course with modern trains the waveform doesn't matter as much, because the electronic e-unit rectifies and conditions the voltage before it reaches the DC "can" motor.

 

The MRC being pure sine wave will be the quietest. But I tried one of these when they first came out, and personally, didn't like it.  Starting voltage was too high and the whistle caused the train to speed up noticeably.  If it came to that I would rather have a Postwar 1033.  My $.02, good topic.

Hello

After reading all the post one should ?

 1 - Run older loco's with their E-units with transformer form the same era

2 - Run newer loco's [ command ] with modern transformers  ; Z-4000 or Zw-L ,180 watt bricks or older ones with added breakers & TVS. 

3 - Use Cw -80 for starter set and powering accessories.

I want to know as I will be looking into getting something for my layout.

Now the newest Zw-L ,seems to me has everything one could want ; runs old & new.

A lot of $$ ,but if it will protect the command electronic's and run post war.

It is worth to me.

Right now I have a couple of CW-80 [from starter sets] and one KW.

Looking to do this once and not be buying over and over, but one can never have too much power 

Thanks JW

 

The CW-80 also does not play well with MTH PS2. Mine messed up my MTH engine programing and I had to take it to a dealer for reset. My 2036 engine would cause the green light to flash from over load. As was mentioned, The CW-80 is best for cheap starter sets or lights. I put mine to lighting duties years ago.

Rob

 

   

Thanks Ted, Railride and Stone. I guess I'm gradually gaining the information I wanted, although there is some conflict in these posts. For example, an earlier poster said that the MRC was chopped sine and I didn't think so, but would rather read more info than go off topic debating that point. I haven't used it a lot, but when I did was satisfied with it's performance. The one exception being when I hooked it up to a circle running bump-n-go trolleys under a small Christmas trees. I think I will leave the gory details for another time.

 

The specific engines that prompted me to start this thread are 2343 and 2353 Lionels, although I do have some Lionel and Ives dating back to 1917 that I plan on running. Really. I'm old enough that if one of them does a crash and burn I won't cry and it's about time someone else gets to take a look at them on the go. Being buried with a pristine old engine laying on my chest doesn't appeal to me nearly as much as watching someones face light up when they see it run.

 

I have timer and momentum type system that I got from Dallee specifically to address the problem of sudden startup or shutdown, especially with older engines lacking flywheels. I think that will possibly solve the problem of overly aggressive starting voltage.

 

The layout will be running one train at a time - no accessories of any kind, although that may change a bit later, depending on how well this whole thing goes over. So I don't need a super high powered transformer with a half dozen levers to manipulate. The main concerns are dependability, dependability and dependability (in that order).

 

Just as an aside, this layout is going in a grocery store in Anton, Colorado. Ever been to Anton? Inconveniently located in the boondocks about half way between Cope and Last Chance - considered by some as more of a description of condition than location. The owner of the store doesn't know that I'm doing this so it''s going to be a bit of a shock to him. I'm assembling things in sections here at home so I can sneak in there some night and get it all put together and running before the next days opening. Shouldn't be a problem - I have a key to the store. Also have a key to the gas pumps down at the Co-op, which has come in handy for wayward motorists. Come to think of it, I think I have a key to the scalehouse down at the elevator and a master key to the motel. Jeeze - didn't realize I was so important 

If you want to protect your transformer from burning up then add in a 3 amp fuse or circuit breaker at the point where you plug in the transformer. Or put a breaker or fuse holder in line on the cord, but do it safely, use wire nuts or crimp connectors and electric tape to avoid a shock.

The output terminals on a post war transformer like a ZW or KW you can use a 7 amp circuit breaker in line with the hot side.

Most post war transformers do have over current protection but you can almost weld with one before the breaker trips.

 

Lee Fritz

With what you've said about the single trains and no accessories, then I think you'll do quite fine with a Z-1000. Might want to just put a cheap fan to blow on the brick to keep the temps down.

 

There is a GW-180, which looks like the CW-80, but uses a power house 180watt brick. It functions like the Z-1000.

 

Next issue I have with the CW-80 is the cooling fan on them fails after a brief period of time. Although the electronics are dastardly simple in a CW-80, they very much get hot.

 

Now on the flip side, I have an old tin-plate Marx that absolutely loves the CW-80. The engine because of its low-voltage design, doesnt need full throttle to go at a decent clip, so its fairly smooth.

The CW core is actually a robust 7-8 amp transformer, and the full 5 amp rated output is all available in total between the track & accessory outputs. The CW will put out a full 5 amps continuously & effortlessly up to the "foldback" 5 amp threshold.