question about using surperstreet

The trolley will keep going and be smashed by the train or the train will be smashed by the trolley.  When they meet at the crossing, anyway.

Rob is right.  

 

There probably are ways to wire things up so the trolley would stop if a train is approaching, but that project will require a more creative and electrically oriented or electronically proficient mind than mine.  Sure would make a good article for the magazine though. 

It wouldn't take outrageously complicated electronics, though.  You could do it with an old Lionel train-stop block signal, which would stop the trolley as long as there was a train in the intersecting track "block", then let the trolley proceed when the track was clear.  1920's technology and just a few wires, but I don't know how superstreets is made so I'm not sure how you'd incorporate the sensor.

I am fairly confident that one could install an reflective sensor at the intersection that would determine the approaching train and in tern toggle a relay that would turn off voltage to the Superstreets track. One sensor before the intersection to detect the oncoming train and another after the intersection to make sure the train has cleared the intersection. In fact if you have crossing gatecontrol the power to that section of traccs/signals they could all be controlled by the same circuit. Signals/gate are activated and the super streets track turns off. Use and insulated section of superstreets track before the intersection and only control that section.

 I'd say that using an isolated rail, before and after the crossings on both streets and rail, and use a relay to power one and deactivate the other via a relay, would solve that problem...it's be a momentary stop for one of them- old school. I remeber an old article in a train mag that showed two trains on a single track, but there were isolating rails involved where the one train would stop and the other would run. The mag and article escape me at the moment, but it old school tech ran via a conventional transformer.

Here's an idea:  Someone figure out how to do it, and then follow-through by actually building it.  Document each step with photos and put together a diagram.  Write up the process step-by-step and then send the photos text, and diagram to me.  You'll earn yourself a couple of hundred bucks.  

thanks for the help and ideas so far, you guys have some good ideas

 

i looked at the infrared sensors that Strogey mentioned, the one i was eyeing up is the lionel 1531IR.   i am wondering if u guys know if i could  power the whole superstreet track system  thru the Normally Closed terminal of the IR sensor?   Would it allow me to control the speed of the trolley or at least give the trolley a set speed that it isn't to slow or to fast. 

 

I think if i could power the superstreet system thru the IR sensor then when train approaches the intersection it should open the superstreet section circuit and stop the trolley. 

 

DO you think that would work, or is there a flaw i am overlooking. I would  hate to crash a $$ trolley with a $$$ engine.

 

thanks again

thinking about it it my idea won't work the trolley will stop wherever it is on the superstreet track when the train comes to the crossing, including on the tracks and getting whacked by the train. 

 

sorry for the lame idea

You are on the right track. Haha! No pun intended. You just need to find a way to create an insulated section (block) of superstreets track. And control only that with the section with the sensor. I am not familiar with the product so cannot offer much help there. You mat want to check with Lee here on the forum. He is the resident "streets" expert.

Not a Lame idea, it can be done....

 

Strogey, i see where superstreets do have insulated sections. I never used them before myself but believe they work just like any other 3 rail track.   so if i wire the 2 insulated SuperSreet sections to the 153IR  sensor on the normally closed side then when the train activates the sensor the trolley should stop on the insulated section of track, but keep going on the non insulated sections of tracks. . . is that correct?  i am no electrician so i i sound dumb when it comes to this stuff it is because i am.

 

Penn pacific is that how u did it?

I wish I could take credit, but it's not my layout. It belongs to Joe Rampolla's J.M.J. Railroad and he's got a website with this fascinating layout with all kinds of neat stuff on it. He gives details on how to do this crossing and more on his website, I'll post the link.

 

 

http://www.josephrampolla.com/MainPage.html

 

Details on the crossing here;

 

http://www.josephrampolla.com/Seventh.html

The super streets rails can be removed from the base- if you look at the indexing tabs, they are very much like fastrack and can be tweeked inward to remove the rail so someone can cut/insulate it. Make your insulating cut between tabs and it should be solid enough on a straight piece.

 

Allan...I have a plan- found the article and have the modification in mind, just need alittle more R&D after the supplies show up. ___12/04p60#2 

 Alan

( I sent a reply earlier but for some reason it needed to be approved by the Administrator.  First time I've seen this.)

This was done several years ago using 4 relays.  The schematic was published in an early version of CTT.  I believe the author may have been a dentist.  I had two trolley lines meeting at a 90degree crossing and whichever trolley reached the intersection first took control. A lot of fun to watch.  I do have a hand drawn schmatic but will need some time to search for it. In the interim maybe someone can do a search in CTT to find the article.  Please note that there was a mistake in the wiring but was corrected in the following issue.

Thanks

This has been done using 4 relays.  Superstreet track was not used but really no difference between Superstreet track and any 3 rail track.  I set this up over 10 years ago on my previous layout.  I followed the wiring schematic as published in a CTT article. (I believe the author was a dentist.)  This was in an early issue of CTT and unfortunately there was one error in the diagram which was corrected in the following issue.  It also included wiring 4 dwarf signals.  You create blocks and which ever train or trolley reached the intersection first controlled that intersection.  I set it up for 2 trolley lines running through the town.  A lot of fun to watch. 

I will look for the schematic I drew and will post it but need time as I have some family medical issues.  Maybe during the interim someone can do a search in CTT and review/post the schematic.  Remember that the following issue identifies the correction

Thanks.

 

I will need some time to find my handwritten diagram as I

i am/was hoping not to use relays do to my lack of electrical skills, using relays sounds complicated and over my head.  i was hoping for something simpler, but if using relays is the only way to go then i will give it a try, keeping my fingers cross for that wiring diagram, and hoping it is really simple to follow to! 

 

anthony is there anyway of getting the train to continue even if the trolley arrives first i would like to always make the trolley the one that stops?

Poolio, yes there is a way to isolate one track to keep the train running but not the side line street/track- but it will involve use of a relay in each direction.

Allan...because it's the "other" mag, may I post the article reference info here?...don't want to offend and mods or higher ups...

Here are examples of what I have been talking about using IR sensors with more technical details here. While the components look complicated, the connections themselves seem rather simple, though that doesn't mean they are simple for everyone. It is easier though because you only want the train to control the power block for the trolley rather than both controlling the opposite power block.

Nice, but if a guy can't handle an old school relay set up, I doubt he could set up those....yes, most folks could, but....

I'm looking at a simple NC{normally closed} relay with single throw...just an on/off, with track sensors to sense the train and the relay would shut off the side track by opening the relay, thereby shutting off the power to it. Farther down the track the track would be another sensor to close the relay for the sidetrack to be powered once the mainline train is past.

The circuit I've seen looks to be a "one way" circuit and wouldn't work for both train directions...and trains have been known to go both directions on my tracks, so I have to modify the circuit to work for both ways...though it might already..I need to build it as I found and see if it will work both directions. If it does work, I have an easy solution with a single relay...if not, I need to improvise. 

Having the trolley yield to the train only requires 1 relay per crossing. The outside insulated rail on the oncoming track needs to be insulated. You need to make one isolated block on the Superstreets for the center rail on the approach if only one vehicle runs on it. The section on the crossing intersection is left hot so if the train arrives when the trolley is on the crossing,it clears it before thew train hits it. Otherwise it stops on the switched block on the approach. Costs about $8 to do. I have such a circuit on my layout where the trolley intersects the train in 2 places. I am assuming a 3 rail layout,no need for IR detectors if so. Circuit can be made  bidirectional with additional relays.

 

Dale H

Well, since no one has posted any kind of diagram yet, I was only trying to show the basic concept that I found while looking at various crossing gates. I wasn't necessarily suggesting any particular product or method.

I'm only a little familiar with the Superstreets product.  From what I read I assume it a 1/43 dc powered track that runs vehicles around.    Have any of you guys tried using the 1/43 Artin 12 vdc  slot car tracks to do this?

It's actually a 3-rail 1.25" gauge O-Gauge track - the only slots are the flangeways for the wheels on the cars.  You can actually run O-Gauge trains SuperStreets too, as designed.

I don't think this is as simple as some are trying to make it or I'm trying too hard to consider all possibilities. Here's the situation as I see it, directions are for illustration purposes only.

 

Assumptions:

Trolley track going N/S.

Train track going E/W.

Trolley and train travel in both directions.

 

Problems:

Train approaching the intersection needs to shut off power to a S-bound trolley only so a trolley in the intersection or beyond can continue moving.

Train approaching the intersection needs to shut off power to a N-bound trolley only so a trolley in the intersection or beyond can also continue moving.

 

At a minimum, I believe 2 power blocks are needed on the trolley track that can be turned off when the first car (not necessarily a locomotive) hits the first sensor and turned back on when the last car passes the 2nd sensor regardless of travel direction. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve the problem of shutting off power to only a single block depending on the direction of the trolley. And, maybe I'm all wet, but I don't see even that much being done with a single relay and 2 simple sensors. If it can be, I'll be very pleased and very apologetic because I'm thinking of adding a similar intersection to my eventual layout.

 

Anyway, here's my concept with IR sensors, but as I said, it doesn't totally work either. It will clear the intersection, but stop a trolley in both blocks.

 

1. Create 2 power blocks on the superstreet track, 1 on each side of the crossing.

2. Wire them with a single relay to "toggle" the power on/off.

3. Place a set of IR sensors on each side of the intersection diagonally so that the space between rolling stock doesn't activate the relay.

4. Wire them together so that the relay is not activated until the train passes through both sets of sensors.

 

Now, some of this may be able to be done with more simple sensors, but I see some problems with that too.

 

a. If you place the 1st sensor near the track on one side, you have to set the 2nd sensor further down the track. When you do this, that determines the longest consist that can be used.

b. If you place that 2nd sensor way down the line, it then becomes the 1st sensor for a train traveling in the opposite direction and will toggle the power way too early.

 

When using IR sensors, you don't have to deal with how far apart the sensors need to go, they go right before and after the intersection, to trigger the power equally in either direction. If there are some kind of directional sensors where a set can be added in each direction, you still limit the length of your consists to that distance and the trolley sits waiting for trains with shorter consists.

 

I'm just trying to cover all bases and the OP will have to decide how much or how little control he wants. If the trolley travels in only 1 direction, that simplifies things, but simple sensors still affect the consist length.

 

Oh, and I'm also here to learn, so please don't beat up on me if I offer something more complicated or expensive than it needs to be. I'm only trying to help where I think I can and I'm basically still a novice at most of this.

Here is directions for activating a relay coil with the insulated rail method.

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=410

 

The trolley block center rail power would be in series to a set of contacts on that relay where it would break power to the block section on the crossing approach when the coil was energized.(Common-normally closed) The outside insulated rail would be before and a little after the crossover on the train loop. A small center section of the trolley loop,right on the crossing would be left always powered so if the train approached while it was on the crossing,it would proceed. This way the trolley always yields to the train,but if is on the crossing when the train gets there it proceeds before it gets hit.

 

With 2 more relays the system can be made bi-directional. Here is a similar coil latching circuit used for direction logic for crossing gates but it could be used to direct which block is shut off when the train approches.

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BiDirectionalCrossingGate

 

 

 

Here is a circuit using 2 relays where trains at a crossing yield to whichever one gets there first.

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=434

 

Dale H

 

 

I know, wasn't implying anything except that some folks just don't like things to get to complicated for them.

The crossing gates trigger idea is fine, but in actual premis those turn on things - we need a system that turns off things. My electrical knowledge is limited by what little I know or understand....wish I knew more...where's mr Will when ya need him!

Dale, the train needs to be proprietary in both directions...I'd guess...or want myself.

The train track trigger rails could be on opposite sides of the crossing and opposed rails each side.

These could trigger the center rails on both sides of the siding, thereby stopping the vehicles from either way before it hits the mainline track.

We'd need enough length either way of the mainline crossing to trigger and a short length each side of the siding to get the vehicle stopped...cars/trolleys usually don't go that fast so they'd require less stopping length. Mainline rails would need longer triggering lengths due to higher speeds{that's an assumption on my part}.

A single pole/double throw, but wired normally closed relay should be fine...5 amp capable - and assuming both tracks are AC, rectifiers would be needed since, as I recall, most relays are DC.{?} 

Allan hasn't chimed in yet with an ok, so since the article I'm looking at is from a competitors mag, I'm reluctant to post it here. Hope you understand my take on that issue. Shoot me an email off board and I'd be happy to direct you to my source...

ok with some of the diagrams and some online research and all your help i think i can handle wiring up some simple relays and stuff,  i'm not a great electrician or even a good one, but i am pretty good at following directions, and with all your help i'm going to give it a try this evening.    keep the ideas coming cuz there were a couple of things i never even thought about.  thank you guys so much for the ideas, help, and support!

Dale H,

I've been reading some of your other posts and it's obvious you have a lot more experience with relays and sensors than I do, so my apologies if I offended you or came off as stubborn. That is not my intent.

 

In one of your recent posts, you included this link from your blog (something I'll check out more later). If I read it right, it certainly looks like it will work better and cheaper than the IR sensors I was looking at. As I now understand this, I'd need do the following:

 

- Create a "power" block for the trolley on each side of the intersection far enough away so a trolley can safely stop before a train gets to the intersection. The intersection is not included in either block so a trolley already there can safely continue on through.

 

- Create a sensor block for the train large enough so it extends through the intersection on both sides far enough to stop the trolley when a train approaches/departs. The train part of the intersection would be included in this block.

 

My understanding is that the sensor will activate when the first car (not necessarily a locomotive if cars are being pushed) enters the block in either direction. It will keep the relay active (turning power off) as long as any car of the train is passing over that block of track. Once the last car has passed through, the sensor will deactivate and restore power to the trolley.

 

Assumptions/Questions:

- The scheme requires that "all" rolling stock have metal wheels.

 

- It will shut off power to both trolley blocks.

 

The 1st should be easy enough to deal with. The 2nd means that a trolley that has just passed through the intersection and happens to be in the 2nd power block when the sensor is activated will also stop. Since I don't see this happening all the time, I'd probably be satisfied. However, is there an easy way to add a sensor to each trolley block to keep the power on in the other block when a train is passing through?

 

What about a pressure sensor like the lionel one for gateman or cross signal?  That sensor would stop power on the superstreets they have plastic pins for superstreets? Isolate or break power there constant power wired to track superst. Hook to sensor one side and another the breaker sensor would cut it then release it.  

Ok I will give this a shot. My old Imac does not accept some non Mac software to make diagrams so I hope these are readable. This is for a trolley that travels in both directions across an oncoming train. A uni directional trolley only requires one relay.

 

Here is the track configuration,click to enlarge

 

 

 

 

 

IR1 and IR2 are outside insulated rails on the trolley line. The dots represent plastic pins which isolate it from the rest of the rail. They need be only 1 track section long but 1 trolley length before they cross their respective insulated center rail stop blocks. Their purpose is to latch or unlatch a logic relay (relay 1 and relay 2) which determines direction.

A train moving across IR1 will energize relay 1 and latch it electrically.  A train moving across IR2 will unlatch it.

 

Block 1 and Block 2 are isolated center rails also made with plastic pins or gaps cut in the rail. They should be at least the minimum trolley stopping distance. Trolley power is always on in the crossover section between block 1 and 2. This allows the trolley to  make it through if it is on the crossover mid section when the train arrives on IR3.

 

IR3 is on the train track.

 

IR1,IR2,and IR3 are connected to their respective relays. The train wheels complete the circuit to the coils when the blocks are occupied.

 

Here is the relay diagram,click on to enlarge. Relay 1 is 3PDT,relay 2 and relay 3 are SPDT. All relays have DC coils. A capacitor and diode is across each coil in proper polarity,the capacitor to make filtered DC and reduce chatter. The diode is for spike suppression.

 

 

 

A separate transformer is used to power the relays. The bridge rectifier converts AC to DC. The minus shares a common with the track. This can also be done with AC current with an unused tap of a track transformer where each relay has its own bridge rectifier. Relay 1 latches electrically in series with the C-NC contacts of relay 2 and in series with the left set of its own C-NO contacts.

 

A trolley moving from the far left to right will cross IR1 and energize relay 1 and it will latch electrically.

 

A trolley coming from far right to left will break the electrical latch of relay 1.

 

The rest of the contacts determine which block will be shut off by the train depending on the trolley direction.

 

If relay 1 is latched, Block 2 will have power and block 1 will have power unless relay 3 is energized because block 3 is occupied. The trolley will have moved from the far left to right and will stop on block 1 if the train is on block 3.

 

If relay 1 is unlatched,block 1 will have power and block 2 will have power unless relay 3 is energized because block 3 is occupied. The trolley will move from the far right to the left and will stop on block 2 if the train is on block 3.

 

When the operating session is over the trolley can be left anywhere but on block 1. The system does not have memory. If memory is desired a twin coiled mechanical latch relay can be used. These are a bit expensive so the relays are cheaper.

 

If a DPDT relay is used for relay 3,the extra contacts can be used for a crossing flasher or block signal.

 

The parts to do this cost maybe $25. Relays would be 24VDC coils,10 amp contacts. Capacitors 100uf 35 volt for relay 1, 220uf 35 volt  for relays 2 and 3. Diodes 1n4001 or better. A 4 amp bridge rectifier and maybe a barrier strip for easy hookup. 18 gauge wire for track power hookup,22 gauge for relay power. Good to color code to avoid confusion. Use 18VAC for 24VDC relay power. For 12 volt DC relay use 10 VAC.

 

Clean track and pickup rollers,and thoughtful placement of the blocks and insulated rails are needed to make this work.

 

C= common on relay contact set

 

NO= normally open (Connected to common when relay coil is energized)

 

NC= normally closed (connected to common when relay coil is not energized)

 

Make sure polarity is correct on capacitors and diodes across the relay coils. A backward capacitor will explode and a backward diode will cause a short in the relay circuit.

 

Dale H

Thanks, Dale. I was composing a reply, but had to step out for a bit. Then I saw your latest diagram and I can see how all that works now. I'll definitely save this for later and see about including an intersection in my next design attempt.

Dale, wouldn't it be better to kill the center rail on IR3 since the outer untapped rail there is still conductive?

Also, those IR1 & IR2 latch and unlatch from either the eastbound or westbound direction- right?....I get the trolley sidetrack is neutralized from both sides of the crossing...

IR3 is on the train track and is just to sense the train. You don't want to kill that section or it will stop the train. You want to kill either Block 1 or Block 2 on center rail of the trolley track depending on the direction of the trolley like shown in photo 1. Right?

 

My only problem with the schematic is that I'm not familiar with what an actual relay and other stuff looks like, so it's a little hard to envision without the actual parts being used. Time to google these things, so I can see what we're talking about.

Thanks, Dale. I saw that earlier in one of the links, but now it makes sense. I'll definitely keep you in mind if I add an intersection to my layout. I wish it weren't a year away, sigh.....

 

I'm not into animated accessories and I don't expect to add a trolley, but understanding how this would work gives me something to think about.

ok my superstreet sections came in,  and i got it layed out and hooked up and i got the trolley running, just testing the track and the layout.  i picked up a mth ir sensor seeing that the lionel  one is so hard to get. why is everything so hard to get with lionel lately anyway? anyway i wasn't able to get the ir sensor wired up yet, i ran out of time, and ran into another problem.  at the superstreet and train crossing if i keep the train at the normal speed, which i didn't think was very fast to begin with,   it jumps off the track, i have to slow it way down to get it to cross the crossing without derailing, is there any little trick to help the train from derailing or do i have to just slow the train down at the crossing?

The diagram in my previous post will work for a bi directional trolley.. I already do a similar version of it on my layout and it works. My trolley goes one way and crosses the loop twice. For one direction trolley operation all you need is one relay. You can have it for free. It is a simple circuit,easier to make up than describe.

 

Dale H