Questions on S Scale

I agree. Three rail O has certainly helped both 2 rail O and S.

I found this video on You tube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=699NBq3WCFA

What company made the EM-1?

And that other thread where you showed the link to the video of that Y3 which was converted to scale flanges and DCC. I wonder does anyone else do these type of conversions? And they said that to convert to DCC was just software do you think it is possible to convert other Lionel locomotives to DCC by changing the software? If yes, they should sell the program to us folks instead of a $75 charge for each engine. This way one does not have to send every locomotive through the mail.

You have  do some rewiring and so far only the Y-3 the factory installed DCC module. The Y-3 will run on anything:

American Flyer 30B transformer.

DC power supply

DCC system

TMCC

It has DC motors. it does not have AC motors

Lionel did a lot of engineering on just about everything with this steam engine model. The 2-8-2 is almost impossible to convert to scale. Maybe the Challenger is a possibly. The Big Boy was a total joke, it belongs in the scrap metal pile.

The EM-1 is a brass import by Southwind Models. 

Rusty Rustermier

Hi Rusty,

If you would, please contact me off Forum.  I'm in the profiles.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

S Scale Locomotive and Supply is the only one I know of doing scale conversions, and it's for the Y3 only.  And the conversion WILL void the locomotive's warranty.

SSL&S was considering scale conversions when the Mikado's were announced back in 03, but there was some reason it wasn't practical or economically viable. 

The SD70's, Y3's and if I recall correctly, the second run of U33C's are the only locomotives that currently have the electronics that will support DCC.

As far as the DCC software, I doubt Lionel would offer it separately if for no reason other than to control their intellectual property.  There would be nothing to stop (other than the threat of voiding the warranty) one person from upgrading all his buddies loco's once he bought the software.  Perhaps, they'll consider making it available to their authorized service stations in the future.

Rusty

Hey Tom,

Which Rusty do you want?  Traque or Rustmier?

Rusty

Hi Rusty,

good point... Traque.  sorry

Tom Stoltz

As far as the DCC software, I doubt Lionel would offer it separately if for no reason other than to control their intellectual property.  There would be nothing to stop (other than the threat of voiding the warranty) one person from upgrading all his buddies loco's once he bought the software.  Perhaps, they'll consider making it available to their authorized service stations in the future.

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Bill Clark, from this Forum and former SHS DCC installer, has been authorized to the DCC and (or?) DC corrections for the Y3.  My understanding is the DC programming is so the Y3 can run on conventional (non-filtered) DC.  It also will correct the backup light confusion.

Both Jon Z and Bill know much more about this and I hope they will both add to this thread.

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

Rusty, you're probably right but let's think about that. This isn't HO. We're talking about a scale that we want to grow. Not offering DCC compatible locomotives or at least letting one buy the program that changes the software to DCC compatibility for a one time cost is not something that is going to entice scale folks over to S Scale. Adding a $75 fee to every locomotive is to me something that might send the scale folks over to the MTH side who we know will not be charging extra for DCC compatibility. And I don't see how anyone would be able to steal Lionel's intellectual property. It's not like you can install this software in any locomotive. It only works with their products so one would have to buy their product to use the software. You're are right about one guy buying the program and doing all his buddies locomotives BUT this isn't HO. Just how many S scalers live within driving distance of one another in this country? Not that many I would guess especially on the scale side. But once again this is Lionel we are talking about and they are always (IMHO) seem to be more about sucking every last dollar out of the enthusiast than most other companies. We know all the manufacturers are out to make money but with Lionel it seems to me they do the least amount of R&D but yet charge the highest prices.  I don't hate Lionel, I have some of their stuff and like what I have. I just feel that they try to keep this a rich man's hobby. Just my opinion.

Sometimes I wonder if S is a forgotten scale? Recently I saw two ads that said "Good for both HO and O scale". Well, if something is good for both HO and O scale then, wouldn't it automatically be good for S scale? So why not mention it?

Over on the 3 rail side there is a thread about MTH HO. Some guys said that they were thinking about going to HO. So a few minutes ago I asked why none of them had considered S scale? I was just curious.

https://ogrforum.com/d...01#15790232524515201

Yes and no.

It's more like an identity crisis.  For good or bad, S is mostly associated with Gilbert American Flyer. 

I know the scale crowd would wish that perception would go away, but it's never going to happen. 

Plus, S suffered the most from Sanda Kan firing their customers.

However, with Lionel making bona-fied scale detailed and compatible products like the SD70 and MTH joining the fray with the former SHS line, there should come more recognition of S in all it's forms; traditional, hirail and scale.

Rusty

Rusty,

Are there any older AF steamers that can be updated or upgraded either with paint or added details to run on a scale layout? Sort of like how Lionel did the scale Hudson back in the '30s. I guess they would not have can motors correct? Is there any market for a better drivetrain?

Scale conversions for Gilbert Flyer locomotives has been pretty much relegated to the olden days.

As I recall,the "old" S Scale Locomotive and Supply company (a manufacturer of brass locomotive crafstman kits) had conversion drivers (or mechanism kit, I don't really remember) for the NYC Hudson. Another company called Nixon made drivers for the 0-8-0 and wheels for the diesels.

The "new" S Scale locomotive and Supply Co. is making some of the brass detail parts available again. The only Flyer conversion presently is for the Y3.

http://www.sscaleloco.com/

River Raisin also has some detail parts available:

http://www.riverraisinmodels.com/parts.html

S-N-S Trains makes can motor conversion kits for old Flyer:

http://www.snstrains.com/

The Hudsons, 0-8-0's, early Atlantics, K5 and Northerns were probably the best candidates for upgrades and conversions.  The 393 and 21085 Pacifics were cruder by comparison, although i did see one 21085 converted to scale wheels some years ago. 

Frank Titman used to take the Reading Atlantics and make all manner of Reading steam locomotives out of them, but that's also when the old SSL&S was still in full swing.

At the last S Fest, there was a K5 with outfitted with an American Models drive on display, so some folks are still scalifying old Flyer every now and then.

I'm not sure if there would be a viable market for Flyer steam conversion drives nowadays.  The costs of development and manufacturing might be on the high side.

Rusty

I have to assume you mean the Rusty that knows something intelligent and not me.

Rustermier

Hudson J1e:

Not sure how extensively you wanted to modify the AF steamers, but assume you weremay be interested in reducing the wheelset/driver flange depth and tread width.  January, 1962 volume 2, No. 3 S Gauge Herald has an article on how to turn the AF wheelsets and the driver flanges to scale using a Dremel tool (available from Mobley Library from NASG; or, contact me off forum and I can copy one for you in PDF).  The July 1968 issue of Model Railroader, Pg. 66+, MR Clinic has an explination of how to use a lathe to turn large flanged HO European manufactured wheelsets to a more prototypical profile.

Roger

Lionels Big Boy:

     If you don't care that it is too short, and too tall. About 10 feet too short and 2 foot foot too tall.

  It started life as a "O" gauge model then went through several iterations and was acquired by Lionel. it is NOT "S".

   Lionel pulled the opposite long ago with the 027...... "S" gauge models on "O" gauge track????? That made it very easy for some of us. Toss the couplers and the trucks. Kadee's and scale trucks and your off and running.

     I have no proof other than total rumor but I was informed that Lionel has every intention of redoing the Big Boy into a respectable S gauge size model.

    My understanding was the K line Big Boy was a quick total sell out.

      I do know that it isn't even a stand in for the scale guys where the Lionel Challenger and Y-3 are supurb, so are the new diesels.

  Yes, there are scale guys that will buy the new Lionel along with some of the older AF for conversion purposes. All of the older Gilbert that I've converted over the years at least started life very close to scale, very close. The couplers I tossed along with the trucks. I grind  a lot of the details off and added brass parts and a new paint job. (I never heard of a real railroad named, American Flyer).

  I no longer cut up AF passenger and make them scale length. I have too many Flyer collectors here that would have the big one if I did that, besides, they keep me supplied with all sorts of older scale stuff from the 50's.

Rusty

(Rustermier)

Rusty,

I think you'll find the Flyonel Large Lad was more of a "trial balloon" to see if there was a market for new big Flyer steam. It was an experiment and an opportunity for Lionel to introduce something new with a minimal investment.

Yeah, us scale guys wouldn't and didn't buy it, but others did.  So, if nothing else, it succeeded on that count. 

Personally, I feel that if you stand back about 20 feet, turn around and close your eyes, it looks pretty good.

But, there are folks out there that are happy with the Large Lad.  However, I notice you never see any photos of it next to a Challenger...

While Lionel's going to have to balance there production between "traditional" Flyer and the new scale stuff, I think they're on the right track now.  I agree we may see a new scale proportioned Flyer Big Boy in the future. If Lionel doesn't do it, MTH probably will.

Lionel is looking to add value to the American Flyer Line, if they weren't they wouldn't have bothered adding DCC compatibility, Kadee brackets, scale wheels on some products and the new pilot mounting.

Admittedly baby steps, but Lionel could have not bothered.

We'll get a better idea of what's going to happen with Flyer (and MTH) in a couple of weeks.

(The other) Rusty

It appears to me that Lionel is a very conservative and risk-averse organization.  Their roots are with toy trains and they probably do not feel they truly understand the scale market.  Some folks, like SHS to name one, will mortgage their homes for a fling with a new scale loco.  I doubt that Lionel will ever do that.  Nor do I blame them.

I see lots and lots of small steady steps in the general direction of making things easier for the scale guys.  I see and hear from lots of scale guys who have ordered the SD70 diesels with scale wheels.  Most folks in my circle of S buddies, have yet to see a Y-3 in person and close-up.  When they do, a preconceived notion of what Lionel is may well change.

I have seen the Lionel 3-rail O gauge Big Boy and it is truly beautiful.  If one is made in S scale, it will not be distinguishable from a brass import.  Lots of room here for optimism.  So if a Polar Express is also made, why complain?  We are still getting products that might be suitable for kit-bashing and conversion to scale or repainting.  SSL&S is willing to help us with scale conversions when feasible.  We are in decent shape in an overall sense. 

Leave us not quibble over the details.

Cheers...Ed L.

I believe that we all are in agreement that the Little Lad is not the world's greatest model. Not S scale, but it is S gauge. It was never intended for the hard-bitten scale crowd. The Challenger and the U33 with scale flanges were in an advanced stage of development before the BB's were ever delivered. In the Gilbert Flyer world (or demi-world) of coal loaders, Mystic stations, No. 355's, 21155's, etc., however, the BB is a source of operational enjoyment under TMCC. In that intended mission and within the broader of interests in S, it has been reasonably successful. 

Bob

I'm not interested in standing back 20 feet.    I don't belong here.

"Bye'" 

You all have sort of lost all of the scale guys like me, we need to move back over to the other world! 

Enjoy.

Rusty

Well, I own a Flyonel Big Boy. And yes, when it was a K-Line economy O-Gauge model for those who wanted to own a Big Boy in the worst way, it was the worst way to own a Big Boy. No valve gear, an other glaring omissions made me think this is how Marx would do it. I know Marx has it's place but this one was spartan. 

  Lionel dressed it up as an S-Gauge model enough that I will say I am still glad I own it. Even over-sized as it is. It's a good looking beastie, and yes, I wouldn't pose it next to my Challenger, but it will always have a home in my collection. If Lionel or MTH brings out a proper one, I would buy that as well. 

The OP presents an interesting premise. Sell out and switch scales. MY LHS techie told me once in a discussion of just that  in comparing 3 rail O to S that while, yes - S is smaller, the turning radii are not all that much different.

True or not true?

S is smaller, but the models, even in the Gilbert Flyer days, were not condensed as the PW Lionel GG1, most steamers smaller than the 700e et al. So due to the scale lengths, the radii are about the same.

American Flyer radius is 20 inches, what is the radius of Lionel 3 rail? that is what needs to be compared, not Lionel 3 rail to S scale. How about Lionel 3 rail to O scale. Do they all operate on the same radius? it's not the radius as much as the design of the model. this argument has been around forever and it all depends on how eyes are looking at it. American Flyer fans wit tell you they have real scale trains. Yeah, they have two rail AC power and the Lionel has 3 rail AC power.

Rusty

Traditionally, Lionel track is measured in diameter, not radius.  O27 track has a diameter of 27" outer rail to outer rail.  O31 is 31" outer rail to outer rail.  That makes the radii approximately 13" and 15" respectively.   Traditional Flyer track is 40" (give or take) outer rail to outer rail.

So, in reality in olden days, one could build a Lionel layout in less space than a Flyer layout.

I think nowadays the O Gauge gang still use diameters for the newer, larger curves, but measured from the center rail.

The other Rusty

Wow, slightly larger radius and scale length equipment. What 3 railer reading this can still honestly say he shouldn't convert?  

>> comparing 3 rail O to S that while, yes - S is smaller, the turning radii are not all that much different. 

True or not true?

If building a layout is in your future, the radius of the track is of minor consequence compared to the size of structures.  Compare the actual square footage needed for a large passenger station between O and S.  Most O layouts cannot accommodate a properly-sized large structure -- like a roundhouse with more than two or three stalls.  With S, many large structures can be fitted into the available space much easier. 

In addition, the appearance of two-rail track beats the 3-rail stuff hands down.  And, the similarity of track radius does not address the issue of realism.  An S train on 20" radius curves looks a heckuva lot more realistic than an O train on 16" radius curves. 

If minimum radius is your goal, perhaps HO trains would be a better choice.  N scale goes down to 9" radii.  Food for thought....

Just contemplating.......Ed L.

One thing I must say is SHS rail was NEVER advertised as code 125.  That was spec and fud.  It was advertised as 155# Pennsy rail, and it is.

Pennsy and SP did some 6.5" rail that was tall and thin.  Most 155# rail was is only 6" tall so it is code 125.  The 6.5" rail is taller.  See the confusion?

SHS and now MTH rail is spossed to be code 131 -0 +6, most is closer to code 133 or 137.

It is interesting to revisit this thread after two years. Unfortunately not a lot has changed. Lionel seems reluctant to invest in new tooling at this time and MTH is just starting to deliver SHS remakes. I still hold out hope that things will pick up by the time I'm ready to start construction of the next layout. Just in case I went ahead and purchased a Flyonel Mikado and Pacific. I will be gutting them and installing TCS WowSound DCC decoders soon. If anyone wants the electronics let me know and I'll make you a good deal

Interesting side note- The Pacific will run on Tomalco code 100 flex while barely bumping at all. The Mike is another story. If you look at the flanges they are totally different which surprised me. Obviously they aren't designed for code 100, but I thought the Pacific did quite well.

I would agree.  As one who constantly preaches "patience," even I'm disappointed in the pace of the S reboot.

As I see it, two things sucked the oxygen out of the American Flyer balloon:

1) The Norfolk Southern Heritage locomotives.  Lionel decided to strike while the iron was hot and I'm not sure how hot it was in S in the first place.  I'm sure we would have seen 57' reefers in NS fantasy paint if the NS series was hot.

Obviously, the two remaining UP Heritage locomotives suffered because of this.  Plus, contemporary isn't a strong suit in S, at least not yet.

2) The Vision Line Big Boy in O.  That seems to be Lionel's main thrust right now.

Even the Polar Express and Berkshire sets got pushed back another year.  By the time these come out, they too may miss the mark.  Buzz only lasts so long.

As far as MTH goes, I like what I see, but I don't see a lot.  The freight cars are nice, but still no F's.  At least the track is finally showing up.  Even the next catalog got pushed back. 

I know there's still a lot of old SHS to be rereleased, but it might behoove MTH to announce at least one new freight car not derived from SHS tooling to create a little excitement.

Oh, well.  At least I can maybe get caught up a little on my "round tuit" project backlog.

Rusty

I hear you Rusty. I'm enjoying my model railroading by doing my electronics projects, track planning, and structure building/weathering right now. Not my favorite which is scenery, but it all needs done and until I finish my basement and start building the layout it doesn't matter anyways.

Unfortunately everyone I have spoken with at MTH said they plan on doing reissues first. IF those go well then we may see new tooling. I hope that isn't true because that could be years from now at this pace. I have always disliked the "you better buy what we give you or we won't make anything new" approach, but it seems to be the way things are going.

As far a Lionel is concerned I believe Jon Z. has been able to shrink the size of the electronics to a size sufficient to allow smaller models to be made. That's fantastic news! Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like Lionel is interested in new tooling these days. Especially in S. In my opinion, they way over estimated the S market and I agree with you on the Heritage units. It boggles my mind that they have still yet to deliver a turnout in their track system. How can you expect to win new modelers if they don't have a track system to run on? The last catalog shows how much they have pulled back their investment in S. I caught a lot of flack when I mentioned that a while back, but I think it is pretty evident now.

I still hope the best days are in the future. S is so close to being the perfect scale. O scale junior or HO Grande. My current frustration is around track. Things on the Hi-rail side are a bit worse now then they were 2 or 3 yrs. ago. Tom isn't able to make turnout's right now, and Lionel and MTH haven't delivered turnouts. Even when they do they are only 20"r. That leaves AM as the only viable source. Carl T. has a very nice layout using that system, but it isn't my favorite and I'm still looking for an alternative. I guess I'm glad I'm not ready to build because I don't know what I would do if I had to start today. Perhaps hand-lay code 125 or 138 turnouts for use with MTH/SHS flex?

I hope things pick back up. There are so many products to be made. The playing field is wide open. I still believe that if they build it the people will come. I'm hanging on by a thread myself. I'm actually playing with On30 right now to pass the time.