R/C Battery-Powered O-Scale 2-Rail Layouts!

Visit the Garden Guys- lots of the G Scalers run Lithium Ion batteries because of trying to keep the outdoor track clean for electrical pickup would be a never ending chore with animals and pine/maple tree drippings.

HEY ROGERPETE,

I'm fully invested in O-Scale 2-Rail Equipment and Track and I won't junk it all and go to G gauge, which would be as costly as Astronomy!

BAD ORDER 

A few people have done battery/RC operation in O scale. The trick is that you'll be using smaller battery packs. A forum member, Dave Vergun, was running O gauge outdoors on battery power. I also think Ed Reutling was doing it as well. As I recall, Ed used a simple boat RC drive that had forward/reverse (all you really need) motor control at variable speed. The threads may still be out there if you do a search on "radio control" or "battery power".

There is actually a growing community using R/C and battery power in scales smaller than G.  I have been working on an O scale project using the Stanton S-Cab system.  

http://www.s-cab.com

You can follow my progress over on the A&O website

http://www.aorailroad.com/phpB...ic.php?f=3&t=206

I don't think he was suggesting you change scales. The G/1 gauge garden folks are just the ones that use r/c battery power the most. I think he was just trying to point you to where to get more info about using battery power.

I am all O gauge as well, but there have been some good articles in Garden Railways magazines the last couple years about battery operation and many other electronic projects that could easily be adapted to O gauge (my reason for reading them). 

http://www.finduslocal.com/hob.../clemar-distributors

This guy can probably help you out. He runs most of his stuff with batteries. He's into On30 and other various scales including live steam. I can't seem to find a web site, but his other contact info is included in this link.

Don

Well Thanx, everyone...I'll hold off on ordering that rail-cleaning car until I do more research about R/C Battery Power as applied to O-Scale 2-Rail. 

Hmmmmm...

Bad Order

Has anyone posted a study of the wired command systems to see what it would take to operate them wireless?  I figure it would cover TMCC, DCS, and DCC.

A friend of mine has a large NYC / PRR  O scale layout (30 + by 80) running exclusively on battery. He has long trains (40 or more cars) and uses pushers and snappers (for you PRR guys) on his grades. It runs as flawlessly as any layout I have ever seen.

I agree.  I would rather sit and wire a battery system into an engine than crawl around wiring an entire layout.

  I think O-scale battery power will be the next big thing in our hobby.  Batteries have almost developed enough to where it is practical.  Most of the equipment can be easily adapted. The battery might have to be in an auxillary tender or hidden in a box car behind the tender on steamers. The non-powered B units will work for the diesels. The battery technology is developing so fast I can't keep up with it.

   Visit with some hobbiest who fly model airplanes and you will be amazed at what they have.

Douglas

Way over my head, but sounds like an interesting idea.

I hear ya talkin', Douglas! 

I'm no stranger to battery-powered R/C...I've been in 1/24-scale work boats for years...Tugs, Trawlers, Fireboats, Ferries, etc, and we measured our current draw in amps, not milliamps, from Lead-Acid or NiCad batteries.  (I used an automobile battery in my 81-pound tug for power and ballast, and it needed LOTS of ballast to bring it to the waterline!)

With the new LiPo batteries at 3.7 volts per cell (4.2 volts fully charged), a series stack of 5 cells would give me 18.5 to 21.0 volts at up to 4000 ma (4 amps). 

I'm anxious to pursue this avenue!

Below are the TX units I used for Boats, Cars, Planes, and Helicopters.

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 Pretty much all wireless battery stuff made today is DCC regardless of scale.  The AristoCraft Train Engineer may not have been but the QSI and Airwire systems are.

DCS and TMCC/Legacy would have to be done by their respective manufacturers,  Seeing as how they are proprietary. 

Modern O-gauge stuff has so many operating features that the traditional servo-channel TX systems might not be up to the job.  I can see conventional control with basic speed, direction, and maybe bell and whistle but the market seems to be going toward complex handheld remotes.  The cost to develop such a system may be a barrier to seeing a new entrant which would presumably be non-compatible with the 2 larger O manufacturers.

The buzz in "wireless" now seems to be using a smartphone/tablet/laptop to control the command base using Wi-Fi.  But base is still wired to the engine.

edit: picture modified to only show command control remotes

This is what's not obvious to me.  You see low-cost wireless adapters that stream theater-quality sound and video in our homes.  I don't see why the command portion of the DCS and/or TMCC/Legacy signal (i.e., take out the 60 Hz power signal) can't be picked off and sent wireless to a small adapter in an engine.  This in principle requires no knowledge of the proprietary command signal...this is just repeating a signal whole-hog from point A to point B. 

The engine adapter would simply re-insert the command signal onto the battery-wires going to the existing DCS and/or TMCC/Legacy boards.

STAN, why did you place my photos in a competetive category with the new wireless controllers?

I didn't give you permission to use my photos in a "This VS That" context, with my transmitters being the "losers"...that is insulting to me.

BAD ORDER

I modified my original photo - no intent to insult you or steal your picture.  I didn't say your servo-based method is a "loser" - it clearly wins for you. 

It's the new technologies which are enabling new options in R/C trains - including LiPo batteries which you bring up yourself.  These new battery technologies require sophisticated "digital" charging techniques that weren't practical just a few years ago.  I thought you meant to start a general discussion about how one might go about running battery-powered engines, the options available, things people have tried, and so on.   I see I was in error so again I apologize.

http://www.freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45

HELLO,

LiPo batteries provide high energy density in a lightweight package, which is why R/C electric model aircraft use 'em.   [C'mon...you knew that!]

There is no such weight saving concerns with boats or trains however, which is why I feel that the tried-and-true Gel-Cell batteries will suffice for battery power in trains. 

I think I can get a 12-volt 5 Amp-Hour Gel Cell plus a Receiver and ESC in a standard boxcar. (Maybe a 50-foot boxcar would be better...)

I have a digital, programmable charger for all types of batteries.

BAD ORDER

Well I have a outdoor "G" scale layout with over 700' of track and it's track powered via batteries 

I use stainless steel track which I've never cleaned in over 7 years of operation. I use DCS and the power comes from a pair of old 12V car batteries wired in series which gives me around 20-24V @ 1300 amps! Of course the mains are fused down to usually around 10 amps. I also use a small windmill & solar panels to recharge the batteries. I run long trains 8 hours at a time with 3-4 locomotives on lead with sound, smoke & lights and they draw around 6-8 amps...a bit too much of a load for onboard batteries. 

My reasons are simple for LiPo batteries.  If the battery is not inside the locomotive I'm not interested.  Not gonna spend time wiring power cars to locomotives.

I think it can be done; if the major mfr will spend the time/money to do this. The battery can be in the tender and the electronics can be made much smaller and put in the loco with the speaker (better sound too). Lipos have a lot of energy per their size. An LED in the cab can indicate low battery, so one can drive the train to a siding for charging up. Also, at the rear of the tender, there can be a small plug to add more batteries in a car for extra long run time..you get the idea.

But will customers be willing to accept the concept? that remain to be seen. Personally, since I am very familiar with all the battery chemistries out there, I would love to convert all my engine to on board DC power and will also accept new technology from the mfrs.

Hi Guys,

Bob Heil's post reminded me that there is a fella that attends the Strasburg, Pa. 2-rail Oscale shows who is actively selling a battery powered system for O. I haven't paid much attention, so I don't remember his, or the company's name. If someone on the list is familiar with this product please forward the information.

From what I remember, the system uses rechargeable batteries that are continually recharged from a fixed voltage applied to all the track, or just to a "recharge" track, your option. Battery life was "a few hours".

If anyone can elaborate, please chime in.

Buzz  

Maybe I could do this:

This Whisky Buggy has a 2-channel digital receiver.

One channel is for a proportional speed control, (forward and reverse), feeding an ESC (Electronic Speed Control), and the other channel is for proportional L/R steering, feeding a Servo.

The buggy's battery is only a 2-cell LiPo (7.4 Volts at 2100 MAH), which I would change to a 5-cell (18.5 Volt at 4000 MAH), giving 74 Watts of energy.

The LiPo battery would easily fit into one of my 40-foot boxcars, with room for the receiver and ESC as well.

Instead of having the servo move the tie rods for steering, I would have it bump 2 microswitches to trigger Horn and Bell in my GP-35 Locomotive.

As a retired Aerospace Electronic Engineer/Technician, this would be a piece of Pie for me. (Not Cake.)

Bad Order Hal

Hal, isn't your layout a simple dog bone loop with all track within easy reach?  If so, why are you fooling around with expensive track cleaning cars and even more expensive battery control conversions instead of grabbing an old sock or t-shirt and some alcohol to clean your track?

Just wondering...

If you do not use LiPo batteries what do you suggest. An O-scale train would need an hours run time and an easy way to charge the batteries. A charging track may be an answer. I don't want to have to change out batteries so rechargable ones are needed, size and weight are not as critical as on model airplanes so, what do you suggest? Cost must also be considered, no nonobtainium or liquid hydrogen for example.

Douglas

HEY DOUGLAS,

Since weight is not a consideration, why not use what hobbyists and commercial enterprises have been using for 40 years?   Gel Cells!

Like auto batteries, Gel Cells have the same Lead-Acid chemistry, except instead of the electrolyte being in liquid form, it's a Jellied form, allowing installation in any orientation.

They're available in many shapes and sizes, in 6 and 12-volts, and in a wide variety of Amp-Hour capacities. The cells are 2.2 volts each, fully charged, the same as in an auto battery.

Plus, they're a lot less expensive than the LiPo batteries. 

Here's my 12-volt 8 Amp-Hour Gel Cell, which measures 6" x 3-3/4" x 2-1/2".

That's all...

BAD ORDER

I experimented with radio control years ago. I used a de-powered Weaver RS-3 as a starting point. I fitted the loco with 2 NWSL Magic Carpet drives and wired them to an Aristo speed control. I used two R/C car battery packs wired in parallel for power.

It worked like a charm, and the battery packs ran for a long time before needing a charge. I never took it any further, but the experiment was very successful.

Seems to me that an underfloor drive is a necessary component for a true 21st Century self-contained system--that way there is plenty of room for sound and other electronics, and a decent sized battery pack.

Having to put a battery pack in a boxcar or something like that would be a non-starter for me. 

Jeff C

Hal, 

Earlier in the thread you lectured another member for using one of your pictures--now it's my turn to tell you not to use my words against me.

I know perfectly well how electricity works, and my use of the word "power" was perfectly understandable within the context of my post; I used two battery packs in parallel in order to ensure that my locomotive would have plenty of run time before needing a charge, and I think everyone on the forum could discern that when reading what I wrote.

If I'm wrong, and you really didn't understand my post then I do apologize, but my guess is that you took issue with my word usage just because you wanted to show off a little--and that's exactly the type of condescending, know-it-all behavior that gets me really cranky and worked up.

So I guess I'll refrain from commenting on any of your threads from now on....

Jeff C

JEFF,

I always want to appear correct in my posts when discussing technical terms and their proper usage. 

I AM correct, but I now realize that I was remiss in "lecturing" you about it.

I therefore apologize, and to make things right between us, you can send me a case of Lowenbrau Dark whenever you have the chance!

BTW, I connected my 12V Gel Cell to my track today, and the train rolled smoothly at full speed around my Folded Dog Bone!

Cheers,

BAD ORDER HAROLD

I expect some form of this to be offered commercially within five years - probably for the 3- rail crowd.  Then the only reason they will have for that center rail is appearance!  When you think about it, battery technology is moving very fast.  Li-Pos just a few years ago were too dangerous, and now you buy them with protection circuits.  They are even talking about electric airplanes.

For me, fifteen minutes of operation would be just fine - anything more exceeds my attention span.

I'll do a Feasibility Study on my proposed R/C Battery Conversion Project by using my new Atlas SW-9 Switcher as the dissectable Guinea Pig!

I'll detemine how to "graft" a LiPo Battery Pack, ESC, and Receiver into the Loco's motor terminals, while still retaining the DCC Sounds.

This should be a challenge, but no more difficult than my understanding of every component in the following assembly: 

Bad Order

Personally., I really like this idea and in the back of my mind several years ago I figured that if I was ever able to do an out door Large Scale operation I would pursue onboard battery and RC. We flew electric RC and had a RC car track back in the late 1980s/early 1990s. The nicad packs were heavy and short lived indeed but that was a LONG time ago!

Hal - I had a single stick Pro Logic (?) radio similar to your Ace model Tx pictured early in your thread. It was great. I flew a giant scale J3 Cub and later a coupe of aerobatic ships before I began to fly Pattern. The older Tx couldn't keep up by then...

I looked into it a couple of years ago and decided against it because it added at least $100, likely more, to the cost of installing DCC in an engine for a receiver and battery pack in addition to a one time purchase for the required wireless (between the remote and engine) throttle and very smart battery charger.  

I would have done it if I had 5 or less engines,  I convinced myself that the technology was (is)there.  Just gotta be careful with LIPO batteries.

Joe G, before he passed, did a lot with it under the title "dead rail society."   And there's lots of info out there including previously on this forum.