Am considering acquiring a set of Santa Fe F3's with the stainless plating offered by several manufacturers in the near future. Are you guys happy with what you've bought in the last several years? It would appear that MTH beat the others by offering the first set some years ago with Atlas, 3rd Rail, and eventually Lionel catching up. What say you?
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I bought a Legacy ABBA set from MrMuffins. I pair them with plated MTH 18” passenger cars, also from Steve at MrMuffins. I waited a long time for Legacy ATSF F-units and love them. My layout is Legacy, so that’s why I waited on the Lionel version. Having said that, Steve had the MTH plated versions (both F- and E-units) on display and they were fantastic, too.
@c.sam posted:Am considering acquiring a set of Santa Fe F3's with the stainless plating offered by several manufacturers in the near future. Are you guys happy with what you've bought in the last several years? It would appear that MTH beat the others by offering the first set some years ago with Atlas, 3rd Rail, and eventually Lionel catching up. What say you?
This photo is of the 16 class F3's with the so-called "long bonnet." The models represent the units after the middle porthole was replaced with vented panels. The prototype 16 class never had stainless steel sidepanels, even after they were upgraded to F7's. Stainless steel sidepanels began on the 22 class F3's as did a shorter warbonnet.
Note: Your prototype photo's run the risk of getting the thread deleted due to potential copyright violations, unless you have permission from the photographers.
Rusty
i have an ABBA set of all four There are slight variations between them. The stylized logo on the B units in one panel or spread across several being one difference. The colors are also not the same and vary in intensity,
@c.sam, I am not aware that Lionel has ever done a set of F3s with proper plating as opposed to a non-reflective metallic finish - do you have a particular model in mind? The only ones that have been mentioned above that I have seen are MTH and they are very nice to look at.
I have an A-B-B-A plated set in HO that was made by Athearn many years ago. If they could do it I am sure Lionel could as well.
@Hancock52 posted:@c.sam, I am not aware that Lionel has ever done a set of F3s with proper plating as opposed to a non-reflective metallic finish - do you have a particular model in mind? The only ones that have been mentioned above that I have seen are MTH and they are very nice to look at.
The 2017 Legacy release was billed as plated and does, indeed, have a reflective finish that is distinct from the many releases of Lionel non-reflective finishes before it. To your point, the MTH version does have a more reflective finish overall.
@Rider Sandman posted:The 2017 Legacy release was billed as plated and does, indeed, have a reflective finish that is distinct from the many releases of Lionel non-reflective finishes before it. To your point, the MTH version does have a more reflective finish overall.
I see. I passed on those models because I was pretty sure that the "simulated" metal finish Lionel advertised did not seem to be the equivalent of plating. Then there were other problems with that run that I fortunately avoided. In general I have not found Lionel's metallic finishes up to scratch, certainly not compared with MTH, or for that matter 3rd Rail when they use plating (although it is usually nickel).
I would concur with you Hancock about the lackluster finish on the Lionel Legacy release. The Lionel's have a good reputation for being very accurate models however but personally, I like the higher gloss finish of the others. The Atlas appear well done but I seem to recall some issues with them when first released with the chain lifts or similar?
The MTH may be the best value and lowest priced and both their F's and E series diesels are beautiful. Hate to pay for 4 powered units at $700 a pop when two powered will certainly suffice in most applications.
These are MTH's from Rich Battista. If the electronics eventually give up the ghost - one could always add ERR's system which hopefully would be updated and removed from the 'antiquated' class by then! LOL! Many PS2/3 systems have been operating flawlessly for years...
I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you put eyeballs on the Legacy set. I hadn’t heard about any problems - mine have been flawless (although I might take the electrocouplers out of the B-units to shorten the gap).
Everything has a balance sheet. One brand may not be quite as “plated,” but has superior electronics and sounds. Another brand may be more “plated,” but has inferior sounds and comes from a dead company with a multitude of uncertainties regarding future support. Yet another brand may have the finest details of all, but is about double the cost and has the most antiquated control system and sounds of all three. Prioritize, pick one, and have fun.
Now, if you could find a set of 3rd Rail units with Legacy electronics and sounds, 3rd Rail customer service, and all at the price of the MTH units, well then......
I don't have 3rd Rail F7s in ATSF, but they shipped in 2016 in a more glossy finish. I do have their E8s, PAs, and E6s in ATSF and they are actually stainless plated plastics. The nickel finish dates back to the NYC ESE set and they have a definite yellowish cast.
The final effect on the plating depends on the clear coat. As you can see, the E8s and E6s have a slightly more glossy clear coat over the PAs. The F7s were glossier than the E units.
While not plated, you can see how glossy the finish is on the F7s.
I don't go for the plated diesels. Over time the prototype plating loses the luster. I concentrate on picking out detail on the trucks and weathering the pilots and steps.
@Ron H posted:I don't go for the plated diesels. Over time the prototype plating loses the luster.
Not really. Both the CB&Q and Santa Fe E & F units equipped with the stainless steel side panels, looked just as good when they were traded in for scrap.
I concentrate on picking out detail on the trucks and weathering the pilots and steps.
@AlanRail posted:i have an ABBA set of all four There are slight variations between them. The stylized logo on the B units in one panel or spread across several being one difference. The colors are also not the same and vary in intensity,
Alan, could you some photos of all 4 of the models perhaps so we could see a side by side comparison?
@GG1 4877 posted:I don't have 3rd Rail F7s in ATSF, but they shipped in 2016 in a more glossy finish. I do have their E8s, PAs, and E6s in ATSF and they are actually stainless plated plastics. The nickel finish dates back to the NYC ESE set and they have a definite yellowish cast.
The final effect on the plating depends on the clear coat. As you can see, the E8s and E6s have a slightly more glossy clear coat over the PAs. The F7s were glossier than the E units.
While not plated, you can see how glossy the finish is on the F7s.
Thanks Jonathan. Any idea why Scott dulled down the stainless on the PA's? I have the D&H and am somewhat disappointed with the finish as I was expecting a bright surface that really stood out. Most of the Santa Fe units were very shiny weren't they? Photos I've seen appear that way.
@Hot Water posted:
Do you have a photo?
The recent Sunset Santa Fe F3's are very accurate. However, they are late-model F3's, with GE stainless steel radiator grilles, not chicken wire. For me, that would be ideal, but, if you want chicken wire, you may need to look at other brands.
I have Sunset F7's, and they, along with the Sunset E8Am and PA1/PB1 units are the smoothest operating diesels on the layout. They are also brutes, which can pull heavy trains for extended periods. That big motor and horizontal drive is amazing.
Scott is about to close orders for a second run, so, if you want these units you'll have to act now. 4 units will cost $3,000 with tax and shipping.
I realize that we are talking about scale models here. But I would like to add that I have the rail king scale (the copies of Lionel postwar F3 units) in warbonnet colors.
Mine are from 10-15 years ago and are plated. They look fine, except the red paint tends to flake off because the plating does not make a good surface for paint adhesion.
@c.sam posted:Thanks Jonathan. Any idea why Scott dulled down the stainless on the PA's? I have the D&H and am somewhat disappointed with the finish as I was expecting a bright surface that really stood out. Most of the Santa Fe units were very shiny weren't they? Photos I've seen appear that way.
I think the answer lies in the broader question of finish for the entire run. I found the PA's to be a bit duller and more in line with most 3rd Rail locomotives. The plating is the same. I know some people have brought out the shine using car wax. I'm tempted to try that with mine but I need to research what kind of wax might be best. Likely something mild. The paint on these locomotives is an automotive based product.
I sold my 3 rail PRR Sunset GG1 to long time forum contributor Mike Casatelli 6 year ago at least. He brought the finish with some type of shine and it really makes the locomotive very classy. I hope he won't mind that I shared these on the forum all these years later.
Geez, Jonathan -
I just came across this blast from our past. You know my home address, so just send the royalty check there.
Unless a model is weathered very well, I prefer an engine to look freshly shopped. (Read I can't weather worth a ****.) The paint on this one was dead flat, absolutely lifeless and, in my opinion, did the model no justice, so I decided to bring up the shine a bit. Craftsman that I am, I reached into the depths of my vast modeling experience and came up with a rather exotic solution. I airbrushed on two coats of bottled Testors Glosscote mixed 50-50 with lacquer thinner. Hey, it worked for me.
I had actually done this once before on a 3rd Rail PRR S1 Duplex. It also had a dead flat Brunswick green finish that benefitted immensely from the Glossscote/Thinner mix.
For what it's worth, I'd be very leery of using wax. In my experience it always leaves a residue and often builds up during application. Worse yet, some waxes will lift the paint right off a model. This happened to me when I tried to refresh the finish on a Tenshodo Royal Hudson with S C Johnson's Pledge. Took the paint right off with the first swipe of a polishing cloth. All's well that ends well - it looked great after I stripped and repainted it.
Paint or wax, it's always a good idea to test it where it won't be seen and let it dry for a couple of days before committing to the job.
Good luck!
- Mike
@Hancock52 posted:I passed on those models because I was pretty sure that the "simulated" metal finish Lionel advertised did not seem to be the equivalent of plating. Then there were other problems with that run that I fortunately avoided.
@Rider Sandman posted:I think you would be pleasantly surprised if you put eyeballs on the Legacy set. I hadn’t heard about any problems - mine have been flawless (although I might take the electrocouplers out of the B-units to shorten the gap).
Yes, I'm also curious about what "other problems with that run" you're speaking of. I haven't had any problems with my set, either.
I'm probably the last person to have never owned a Santa Fe set. But after looking at MTH's latest announcement for their RK F3 ABA set, I was hooked. Most all my stuff is RK, so for the pre-order price of ~ 530$ and being the ABA units, with smoke and 1:48 scale, it was a no-brainer.
@breezinup posted:Yes, I'm also curious about what "other problems with that run" you're speaking of. I haven't had any problems with my set, either.
I was talking primarily about the F3s, which as I understand it had issues with the couplers (height, length, fixing to the chassis, operation). I think that there were similar issues with the E6s cataloged at the same time. I don't now recall whether there were engine ID issues as well.
@Hancock52 posted:I was talking primarily about the F3s, which as I understand it had issues with the couplers (height, length, fixing to the chassis, operation). I think that there were similar issues with the E6s cataloged at the same time. I don't now recall whether there were engine ID issues as well.
Friend has these Santa Fe F units and I've not seen any of these issues with them.
Lionel's ALCO PA's and RS-11's from a few years ago had the losing ID issue IIRC.
@BobbyD posted:Friend has these Santa Fe F units and I've not seen any of these issues with them.
Lionel's ALCO PA's and RS-11's from a few years ago had the losing ID issue IIRC.
Maybe my memory is not wholly accurate but here's just a couple of links:
Hey @c.sam! It’s been a while!
These beauties just hit the display case @JR Junction Train & Hobby. They’re 2-rail, so the pilots are already fixed, and are Proto3/2, so are 3-rail with the flip of a switch!
good to hear from you!
-Mario
@Hancock52 posted:Maybe my memory is not wholly accurate but here's just a couple of links:
With all Lionel's issues lately, these two would never stop me from buying one.
The first item, the coupler screw was apparently loose and fell out. Have had small assembly issues with all the manufacturers.
The second item, I don’t think Lionel includes shorter dummy couplers to replace the operating ones. Our MTH F unit has the same long operating coupler hanging out back.
I think Atlas F units are the only ones that all come fantastically close coupled. Don't know anyone that has Sunset F's to check.
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