New 6-85186 Lionel F3's; Quick Question

It should be a non operating coupler on the rear of the A units. Without a better look I'm not sure how hard it would be to mount it. 

Thank you for the reply. Very helpful. I think that it should be easy enough to twist off the truck and re-screw in the coupler, centering spring, and bracket. 

WBC posted:

Thank you for the reply. Very helpful. I think that it should be easy enough to twist off the truck and re-screw in the coupler, centering spring, and bracket. 

 

If you can twist off the truck it means this has Liondrive. Make sure the motor coupling is well greased. Unless they have changed the material the components are die cast and subject to wear if not well lubed.

Pete

Was able to get the coupler installed.

It turned out that the screw that the factory attempted to use was way too short and way too narrow. I had a postwar production screw in the tool box that fit just right. Also, the Liondrive components were greased before re-assembly. There were more factory mechanical defects found as well, but will save those for later to give cool down time. 

WBC posted:

There were more factory mechanical defects found as well, but will save those for later to give cool down time. 

Maybe it's time to contact Lionel and take advantage of the warranty ???

WBC,

Please tell us what you found wrong with these F3’s. 

Thanks,

Really, don’t leave us hanging!  I have my set in the box which I plan to open and inspect!

-Pete

Craignor posted:

WBC,

Please tell us what you found wrong with these F3’s. 

Thanks,

On the Liontech truck design there is a top cast metal plate. This top plate attaches into slots on the frame the locomotive. The top plate is attached to the main body of the truck by 4 screws (you can see the top plate in the picture since it surrounds the motor coupling). The top plate serves a second function by pressing down on the bearings that hold the traverse shaft in place so the bearings and hence the worm wheel shaft do not move up and down.  This shaft transfers motion from the worm wheel to the gear train that turns the wheels. 

On my unit the top plate presses too hard on the bearings which freezes the motor. At the factory, they screwed down the plate loosely which allowed the unit to operate. When the unit is in operation the motors warm up and the metal expands and presses down on the bearings with more force. After a short period of operation the unit freezes in place and the motor stall blinking occurs. Let it sit for awhile and the unit will operate again only to freeze up a short time later. 

If I remove the top plate or loosen up the screws a bit the whole gear train is silky smooth. If I tighten down the top plate the whole gear train is frozen in place. 

I'm sure it passed all the mechanical checks at the factory since it does operate at first. 

I can add thin washers to the truck to relive some pressure off the bearings which solves the problem. But, the issue is that it is defective and should I settle for such a repair. 

I should send it back to Lionel. It is clearly defective. But I can buy a new truck and replace the defective unit for less money than it is to ship it back for warranty service. 

A second issue is that there may be wires on the inside of the unit rubbing against the flywheel. That has a distinctive scrapping noise and I hear it. 

Send it back!

In  some instances the past Lionel has offered to pick up the return shipping. They've been in the" doghouse" lately so maybe they still would.

If they insist you pay shipping which is typical of their return policy.

One Lion drive truck for the previous legacy f unit release goes for $40 plus $10 or so flat rate shipping.

So that's $50 to cover the shipping and get them to fix the issues.

There's is nothing else in life that you purchase and have to repair yourself right out of the box.

Lionel frowns on folks opening up under warranty locos due to the risk that some may due more damage. 

Let them fix it!

WBC posted:

 

I can add thin washers to the truck to relive some pressure off the bearings which solves the problem. But, the issue is that it is defective and should I settle for such a repair. 

I should send it back to Lionel. It is clearly defective. But I can buy a new truck and replace the defective unit for less money than it is to ship it back for warranty service. 

A second issue is that there may be wires on the inside of the unit rubbing against the flywheel. That has a distinctive scrapping noise and I hear it. 

One thing that concerns me.  If this is a problem with yours, how can it not be an issue with all units unless something was assembled incorrectly?  Is it a defective plate or is there a spacer missing that does what the washers would do?  These trucks have been the same as previous releases and I'm sure the same design has been used before.  I would be very interested to see what the actual issue is whether missing spacers, defective part, or other.

Were you able to compare it to another truck to see what the issue maybe without causing warranty issues?

As far as the wire rubbing, it's unfortunate but not all that uncommon on many locomotives I've opened from all manufacturers.  I'd do what others have suggested and just let Lionel deal with it.  If they get enough returns to see a pattern it makes it easier to hopefully correct in the future.  Unfortunately when we fix these things, they don't get to see the pattern always.  That's true no matter who's trains you purchase.

MartyE posted:

One thing that concerns me.  If this is a problem with yours, how can it not be an issue with all units unless something was assembled incorrectly?  Is it a defective plate or is there a spacer missing that does what the washers would do?  These trucks have been the same as previous releases and I'm sure the same design has been used before.  I would be very interested to see what the actual issue is whether missing spacers, defective part, or other.

Were you able to compare it to another truck to see what the issue maybe without causing warranty issues?

As far as the wire rubbing, it's unfortunate but not all that uncommon on many locomotives I've opened from all manufacturers.  I'd do what others have suggested and just let Lionel deal with it.  If they get enough returns to see a pattern it makes it easier to hopefully correct in the future.  Unfortunately when we fix these things, they don't get to see the pattern always.  That's true no matter who's trains you purchase.

I have several locomotives with the same basic truck design extending back several years. All are smooth operators and been trouble free. As far as I could tell the construction for all were identical. The only difference on the new F3's is the gears are thicker and made of brass. The top plate casting may have had some flash on the casting that was not removed since there seemed some extra part to the casting. Difficult to say. 

The wires rubbing against the flywheel was a big problem for the F40PH run. 

Thanks for the reply.  I hope you let us know what the outcome is.

Send it back for repair as mentioned. Shimming the plate is an easy fix however, there may have been a gasket that was omitted at the factory that sets the proper clearance on the bearings. 

WBC, I Received my Santa Fe F3 today with the powered B and the Super bass b units. Like Marty I also have the 2010 Legacy F3’s.  My first impression is that the 2018 version is much nicer.  Better sound effects especially the horn.  All couplers were attached.   If you looking for shiny plating on it......you are not gonna get it.....but I like it the way it is.....nicer paint job than the 2010’s.   The only issues I found so far are as follows:

1. Smoke units are anemic.......takes about 5-10 minutes to get them going and I am using a ZW-L

2. The electro couplers on the B unit are as reported,a bit long and sag, but the sag is taken up as unit runs. Not really an issue for me.

3. When I removed the magnetized cover to access the controls on the lead F3, I found a miscellaneous screw attached/magnetized to the cover....not a good sign.

I have run it for about an hour now, with no issues......keeping my fingers crossed for now.

-Pete

BFI66 posted:

WBC, I Received my Santa Fe F3 today with the powered B and the Super bass b units. Like Marty I also have the 2010 Legacy F3’s.  My first impression is that the 2018 version is much nicer.  Better sound effects especially the horn.  All couplers were attached.   If you looking for shiny plating on it......you are not gonna get it.....but I like it the way it is.....nicer paint job than the 2010’s.   The only issues I found so far are as follows:

1. Smoke units are anemic.......takes about 5-10 minutes to get them going and I am using a ZW-L

2. The electro couplers on the B unit are as reported,a bit long and sag, but the sag is taken up as unit runs. Not really an issue for me.

3. When I removed the magnetized cover to access the controls on the lead F3, I found a miscellaneous screw attached/magnetized to the cover....not a good sign.

I have run it for about an hour now, with no issues......keeping my fingers crossed for now.

-Pete

I guess batch to batch variations as all my units smoked like crazy. I observed them smoke then flipped the switch to no smoke. I don't mind the B-unit electro-coupler. 

I like the paint job on the units and think it looks sharp. There is a picture of #22 in the "Put Santa Fe in Your Day" thread and these units are reasonable when judged against that picture. I do wish that the red was a bit more glossy like my 2343. 

Sorry to hear about the loose screw. It seems that the factory as more than a few of them on the floor. 

Talked to Lionel today to get an RA. 

I received my ABBA set on Wednesday. I am completely impressed with them!  The detail is terrific and the finish is stunning. To pick one nit, I’m probably going to swap the electrocoupler on the B-units with dummy couplers  to even the gap between units. I may end up getting a set of Steve Nelson’s special run of an additional road number. 

WBC posted:

Was able to get the coupler installed.

It turned out that the screw that the factory attempted to use was way too short and way too narrow. I had a postwar production screw in the tool box that fit just right. Also, the Liondrive components were greased before re-assembly. There were more factory mechanical defects found as well, but will save those for later to give cool down time. 

Aren't, all the screws on current production metric? Postwar screw - hmm..that' s not metric..

Idle hands are the tool of the devil. Operating just fine now.

I agree, very nice looking units. 

shawn posted:

WBC posted:

Was able to get the coupler installed.

It turned out that the screw that the factory attempted to use was way too short and way too narrow. I had a postwar production screw in the tool box that fit just right. Also, the Liondrive components were greased before re-assembly. There were more factory mechanical defects found as well, but will save those for later to give cool down time. 

Aren't, all the screws on current production metric? Postwar screw - hmm..that' s not metric..

One would think that the screws used in Chinese production would be metric. 

WBC posted:

shawn posted:

WBC posted:

Was able to get the coupler installed.

It turned out that the screw that the factory attempted to use was way too short and way too narrow. I had a postwar production screw in the tool box that fit just right. Also, the Liondrive components were greased before re-assembly. There were more factory mechanical defects found as well, but will save those for later to give cool down time. 

Aren't, all the screws on current production metric? Postwar screw - hmm..that' s not metric..

One would think that the screws used in Chinese production would be metric. 

Would think the same thing.

Just set up my Santa Fe F3 AA units this week.  Here are the issues I have found with mine.  One a unit had the dummy coupler installed backwards/upside down.  Both dummy couplers were loose causing the dummy couplers to not bounce back with the spring.  I had to take them both apart to correct that issue.  2 outside covers for the wheel sets were very loose, I was able to tighten both screws on the one wheel set.  On the other, only one screw could be tightened.  It appears that something has been placed, maybe glue, inside of the other phillips screw heads making it impossible to even insert a screwdriver.  It is definitely coated with something.  Finally, the non powered A unit was not able to be programmed.  When I used eng 99 to check if it worked, the smoke fan would turn on but would not respond to the on off switch on the locomotive.  I looked down inside the area with the program/run switches and could easily see a loose wire.  I disassembled and soldered that wire back on.  This resolved the programming and smoke switch issue.  It was also able to see the poor assembly in other places that had crushed and stripped wires elsewhere.  I still have the two B unit to set up next.  So far, not impressed with Lionel at all after this product and expect to find more issues with the B units.

I know I should have let them deal with it.  But I am always worried about being required to pay for shipping back and concerned that the item will get damaged in transit.

Insure it! If it gets damaged collect the insurance. Maybe, someone on the next run will tighten a screw..

Actually, the last couple of items (NON BTO)  I was interested in had issues. Just like the MPC Mexico stuff.

A consistent level of quality starts at the top!  That's all I can say! Also, IMHO it all started with the demise of

one person. Amazing!

jpcommons posted:

Just set up my Santa Fe F3 AA units this week.  Here are the issues I have found with mine.  One a unit had the dummy coupler installed backwards/upside down.  Both dummy couplers were loose causing the dummy couplers to not bounce back with the spring.  I had to take them both apart to correct that issue.  2 outside covers for the wheel sets were very loose, I was able to tighten both screws on the one wheel set.  On the other, only one screw could be tightened.  It appears that something has been placed, maybe glue, inside of the other phillips screw heads making it impossible to even insert a screwdriver.  It is definitely coated with something.  Finally, the non powered A unit was not able to be programmed.  When I used eng 99 to check if it worked, the smoke fan would turn on but would not respond to the on off switch on the locomotive.  I looked down inside the area with the program/run switches and could easily see a loose wire.  I disassembled and soldered that wire back on.  This resolved the programming and smoke switch issue.  It was also able to see the poor assembly in other places that had crushed and stripped wires elsewhere.  I still have the two B unit to set up next.  So far, not impressed with Lionel at all after this product and expect to find more issues with the B units.

 

I know I should have let them deal with it.  But I am always worried about being required to pay for shipping back and concerned that the item will get damaged in transit.

My problems seem relatively minor compared with yours. Lord knows, I know it is frustrating. My units also had a number of loose screws. The screw holding the electrocoupler on the super bass B-unit in place was nearly stripped. The screw had just enough grab to it to secure it with a bit of epoxy. The coupler on the nose of the non-powered A unit was also loose and needed to be tightened down.

The way this stuff is being delivered lately. They would be better off selling kits.

Another question. There is a gap between the frame and the nose of the shell of the A units, both powered and un-powered. There is significant light pollution from the number boards and from the headlight when on. Light bleeds through the gap between the frame and shell.

The light escaping through the gap illuminates the front truck and pilot a little bit.

Also, the light pollution from the number boards illuminate the headlights when they are turned off and illuminates the cab interior.

Has anyone light insulated the number boards to prevent light pollution of the cab, headlights, pilots and trucks? What method and materials used? 

Some observations:

After operating these for for a few hours a few things have been noticed to that one may want to keep in mind. I have just an A-B-A, powered - super bass - non-powered so those with the powered B unit may experience something different. I find that it is best to have the Powered A as the third unit where the powered A pushes both the un-powered A and the super bass B unit and pulls the train.

When pulling the train and both un-powered units the powered A experiences much shaking while moving the train and the traction tires get chewed up.

When the powered A is the third unit and pushes both un-powered units and pulls the train there is much less shaking and less wear observed on the tires. 

I also find that the powered A unit looses contact with the track easily which breaks electrical connection. Thus, while pulling the train the powered A unit will suddenly stop and reset. It is the wheels loose contact with track. I have a carpet central layout with FasTrack so no track work on my part so that could be the culprit; those with carefully constructed track may experience different. The electrocoupler on the B unit is insulating and electrically isolates the powered A if the electrocoupler is the connection point to the powered A. Thus, I run with the dummy coupler end of the B unit coupled to the dummy coupler on the powered A. Thus, all the wheels on the B unit act as electrical pickups for the powered A and as such better electrical continuity is maintained and better operation results. 

It's fairly easy to seal up the lights so they don't bleed into other places.  My go-to solution is Liquid Tape.  When I do an LED installation, I use Liquid Tape on the rear of the bulbs to keep all the light going where it should.  For number boards, if you can't apply that fix, just use opaque permanent tape to cover the whole assembly.  Usually the biggest problem is the cab lights, more stuff to seal.

Thanks, good idea. 

I have been repairing my asphalt driveway over the summer and have some thin round crack filler left over. I was thinking of stuffing that into the gap to fill it. I just would not take the torch to it. Probably not a good idea.  

I don't think the crack filler is a good idea, I'd just use the Liquid Tape, it dries pretty quickly.