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Relays

BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member

Is there a substitute that would work in place of a DZ-1008 relay?  I just finished a four month project installing about 300 feet of Gargraves track on my new layout with 37 Ross switches.  Several are #8, #10 or curved #8.  There is also a three-way.  All these require relays if one intends to use any engines with short spaced pickup rollers.  I came up a couple relays short and the darn things have been back ordered for weeks.

 

The other problem, however, is that I have been running on all tracks in conventional mode looking for bad spots that could easily be remedied before landscaping and ballasting starts. In the beginning everything ran great.  The relays were all switching power to the appropriate rails as they should.  Meter checking verified this several times.  But now after a few days of trials, several of the relays have failed. The normally closed contacts in the four that have failed are apparently stuck open.  The normally open contacts will not close.  I am wondering if I should just change all the 1008's out now, but need some replacement that will work in conjunction with the DZ 1000 switch machines and remotes which are great.  Thanks.

 

Bucky

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G GreggOGR Forum Member

Radio shack has a  small  lever type switch that  can be  activated by  the throw bar  tie  on ross switches. It has a common/ normally open and  closed contacts .We have  used a number of them on our layout for power routing on some of the larger switches... does the same thing as a relay but is activated by the  tie instead of a relay coil. about &3 or $4   bucks each.

R RalphOGR Forum Member

Hi Bucky

The 1008 are nice and easy to attach to the 1000's but less so with the 2500's - when/if you decide to go that route. As Dale H. says, almost any relay will work if it has the right configuration. If you look at the specs for the 1008 you can determine a compatible relay that will fill the bill - cheaper too I guess, depends on how you want to connect it. Others on the forum can help find the correct one and sources if you want.  

 

Sounds like you have a large layout and having the relays centrally located could save a lot of crawling around. An undertable array of the relays you need for the 37 switches, then wire them using good labeling back to the the switch machines might actually turnout cheaper and certainly easier to troubleshoot. You can do a lot to catch shorts and spikes as well.  IMHO, the 1008's are a good product but the 1008's will fail sooner than the one's that Dale is describing. You might even be able to get one relay for multiple switch machines. Obviously a bit more expensive per unit, but maybe cheaper overall. 

 

I have a lot more Z100's and 2500's and use very few of the 1008 relays. I purchased a bunch of relay's from Dale a while back but you can get them anywhere. I use single pole, 2P and 3P. 

 

Ralph

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

I have (2), still in the package, if you are interested.

Contact mikedian@zoominternet.net

 

The relays I did use seem to be ...iffy...

 

Edit add.  I've done the power routing relays, both Atlas, through their 6924 relay boards ,and the DZ 1008 relays as the diagrams indicate.  Problem is that in both cases as a train proceeds through a switch the axle and wheel width of all the cars are random at best. IMO, at some point a wheel/axle combination will cause an intermittent short that is too much for the relay contact points.  I eventually burned traces on (3) 6924 relay boards, and several of the 1008 relays on the Fort Pitt Modular layout became inoperative. There is a reason they call them ("Dead Rail sections"). Eventually I added (3 amp) fuses to the power routing circuits, which is detailed on the Atlas website power routing diagram.  Surprisingly these fuses blow frequently, but it's easier to replace the fuse than replace the relay/relay board.   Again IMO.

Last edited by Mike CT
BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Gregg:

Radio shack has a  small  lever type switch that  can be  activated by  the throw bar  tie  on ross switches. It has a common/ normally open and  closed contacts .We have  used a number of them on our layout for power routing on some of the larger switches... does the same thing as a relay but is activated by the  tie instead of a relay coil. about &3 or $4   bucks each.

Gregg, do you know the Shack's id number?  Sounds like a reliable way to go.

BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Dale H:

 If you use micro switches make sure they have current carrying capacity if you are switching track voltage. Heavier current carrying switches are usually heavier to throw. radioshack is usually expensive. Try Allelecctronics.com

 

Dale H

Thanks, Dale.  Earlier you said you have "12 VDC with screw terminal sockets 10 amp."  Why would 12 VDC coil ones work with the AC DZ-1000 switch machines?  I don't know diddly about this stuff.

Patrick HPatrick HOGR Forum Member

Hi Bucky,

 

just a tip i learned the hard way with a scissor switch that uses 2 relays to switch rail grounds with hot matching the  route traveled through the switch.  You must hook up the non derailing feature when using relays. Driving through a switch that is not thrown so the engine and rolling stock pushes it open , causes a short through the relays and ruins them...

dont know if this is your situation or not..

good luck !

Last edited by Patrick H
BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Dale H:
Originally Posted by Bucky:
Originally Posted by Dale H:

 If you use micro switches make sure they have current carrying capacity if you are switching track voltage. Heavier current carrying switches are usually heavier to throw. radioshack is usually expensive. Try Allelecctronics.com

 

Dale H

Thanks, Dale.  Earlier you said you have "12 VDC with screw terminal sockets 10 amp."  Why would 12 VDC coil ones work with the AC DZ-1000 switch machines?  I don't know diddly about this stuff.

I throw my Ross tinplate switches with relay contacts and do not use the push buttons supplied with the DZ1000 machine. I have an automated passing siding described here

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=856

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...ss-tinplate-switches

 

The one I actually use is more complicated as the siding parks 2 trains each.

 

Anyway the point is you can throw them with a spdt switch. A relay is just an automated switch. So if you use a DPDT toggle the second contact set can power a block signal or whatever to indicate switch position. You dont need a relay for that. With that switch you could also drive a 3PDT relay if you want to power blocks and such. It all depends on what you want to do and your needs.

 

I can not comment on an anti-derail circuit I dont use it,I would have to think about it. I simply throw them in tandem the way I want them.

 

My relays do not neatly plug into the machine you would have to wire them under the layout. There are a lot of ways to do things I can not comment as I do not know the details of your layout.

 

If you look at the end of this post,you will see a pic of one type of plug in relay

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=410

 

As you see DC relays can be used with AC by adding a bridge rectifier and a capacitor. 12VAC in will work either a 12 VDC or 24 VDC relay with no problem.

 

I sell them at my cost which is $8, the plug in socket and relay. They are DPDT,I may have some cheaper SPDT ones somewhere. I have some 24VDC,12VDC and 24VAC I think.  I dont make money on them doing it. I never heard of one burning out from people using them.. The circuit should have protection from shorts to protect the 10 amp contacts. Relay bargains are all over Ebay so you can buy your own and save,I do not push them.

 

The cheapest relay you can use is an automotive relay. They cost maybe $2 have 40 amp contacts and 12VDC 88 ohm coil.

 

two are shown used here to save money for someone wanting an inexpensive circuit used in conjunction with 12 volt timer modules

 

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowThread?id=478

 

Dale H

 

 Wow, thanks for all the information.  You stated that the circuit should have protection for the 10 amp contacts.  I assume you mean the contact side of whatever relay used should be fuse protected?  

 

 

 

BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

I have (2), still in the package, if you are interested.

Contact mikedian@zoominternet.net

 

The relays I did use seem to be ...iffy...

 

Edit add.  I've done the power routing relays, both Atlas, through their 6924 relay boards ,and the DZ 1008 relays as the diagrams indicate.  Problem is that in both cases as a train proceeds through a switch the axle and wheel width of all the cars are random at best. IMO, at some point a wheel/axle combination will cause an intermittent short that is too much for the relay contact points.  I eventually burned traces on (3) 6924 relay boards, and several of the 1008 relays on the Fort Pitt Modular layout became inoperative. There is a reason they call them ("Dead Rail sections"). Eventually I added (3 amp) fuses to the power routing circuits, which is detailed on the Atlas website power routing diagram.  Surprisingly these fuses blow frequently, but it's easier to replace the fuse than replace the relay/relay board.   Again IMO.

I guess I will add the fuses no matter what relay I wind up using.  Thanks everyone.

R RalphOGR Forum Member

Ditto to adding the fuses. As I said, I have most of this centralized as an array/farm so I can to them easily. Look into the automotive 'reset' fuses, might be consideration. I use them. Otherwise, glass fuses, though finding the lower break point i found a bit more difficult - but i am in an extremely rural locality.

 

Ralph

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

I use a  Cooper Bussmann fuse block  from Grainger supply.   It should match-up with the small glass Bussmann fuses available at a local auto parts store.  Click on the underlined phrase to link.  Note the horizontal fuse installed above each Atlas 6924 relay board.  Some of the relay boards have (2) power routing circuits i.e (2) fuses. (Cross-over switch combinations).

 

 

 

Last edited by Mike CT
BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

I use a  Cooper Bussmann fuse block  from Grainger supply.   It should match-up with the small glass Bussmann fuses available at a local auto parts store.  Click on the underlined phrase to link.  Note the horizontal fuse installed above each Atlas 6924 relay board.  Some of the relay boards have (2) power routing circuits i.e (2) fuses. (Cross-over switch combinations).

 

 

 

Are those 3 amp fuses?  Man, I wish my wiring was so darn neat!

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by Bucky:
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

I use a  Cooper Bussmann fuse block  from Grainger supply.   It should match-up with the small glass Bussmann fuses available at a local auto parts store.  Click on the underlined phrase to link.  Note the horizontal fuse installed above each Atlas 6924 relay board.  Some of the relay boards have (2) power routing circuits i.e (2) fuses. (Cross-over switch combinations).

 

Are those 3 amp fuses? Yes  Man, I wish my wiring was so darn neat!  Thank you

Mike

 

rtr12rtr12OGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

If you can't find a Grainger (Mike CT's), Radio Shack has these Chassis-Type 4-Position Fuse Block for $3.99 for bank of 4, they can be separated. They take the 1/4" x 1-1/4" glass fuses. Only problem is the stores usually only have 1 or 2 so if you need a bunch it might be better to order online. I think they also have these in single fuse model in packages of 2. Says they are rated for 300 volts/20 amps.

 

Bad news is no screw connection for the wires, you have to use those quick disconnect crimp connectors.

 

BuckyBuckyOGR Forum Member
Originally Posted by Mike CT:
Originally Posted by Bucky:
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

I use a  Cooper Bussmann fuse block  from Grainger supply.   It should match-up with the small glass Bussmann fuses available at a local auto parts store.  Click on the underlined phrase to link.  Note the horizontal fuse installed above each Atlas 6924 relay board.  Some of the relay boards have (2) power routing circuits i.e (2) fuses. (Cross-over switch combinations).

 

Are those 3 amp fuses? Yes  Man, I wish my wiring was so darn neat!  Thank you

Mike

 The contacts of the DZ-1008 are rated at 10 Amps so wouldn't I be safe to use some fuses closer to that number?

 

Mike CTMike CTOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER
Originally Posted by Bucky:
Originally Posted by Mike CT:
Originally Posted by Bucky:
Originally Posted by Mike CT:

I use a  Cooper Bussmann fuse block  from Grainger supply.   It should match-up with the small glass Bussmann fuses available at a local auto parts store.  Click on the underlined phrase to link.  Note the horizontal fuse installed above each Atlas 6924 relay board.  Some of the relay boards have (2) power routing circuits i.e (2) fuses. (Cross-over switch combinations).

 

Are those 3 amp fuses? Yes  Man, I wish my wiring was so darn neat!  Thank you

Mike

 The contacts of the DZ-1008 are rated at 10 Amps so wouldn't I be safe to use some fuses closer to that number?  IMO, no more than 5 amps.   You don't need full loco power because it is split between the two truck pick-ups.  Even at that most loco's would draw less that three amps. The idea is to protect the relay from  track power (short dead rail piece in the switch) to track common shorting that appears to be causing the relay contacts to fry.  I thought the 7.5 amp track circuit fuses, that I use, would protect the Atlas 6924 relays, but it didn't, that's why I went back and installed the fuses pictured and lowered the size of the fuse. Atlas boards are rated at 8 amps.

 

 

Last edited by Mike CT
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