Resolved! DZ-1008A Switched Track Power Control Question

John,

I've had that problem on three different occasions when wiring a relay to a DZ-1000. The switch machine works fine, but the relay locks up and buzzes. It drove me crazy for weeks. I checked and double checked the wiring and changed relays numerous times. I pulled all the pieces off and built test jigs. Every thing checked out individually on the jigs. I called Steve at RCS, Dennis at Z-Stuff and wrote to Dave Hikel. I don't remember why I thought to try it, but I started changing the LEDs in the switch machines. In all three cases it was changing the switch machine's green LED that allowed everything to work as expected. I'm assuming the LEDs were allowing some reverse current that kept the relay from activating, even though the switch machine worked normally. Hope this helps.

Thanks Gary. I'll contact Z-Stuff Monday unless somebody else has some other info.

Gary,
that info may help me. I have a crossover, using one DZ1008 off one of the two DZ1000 switch machines to light up signals.
When the train wheels hit the control rail of either of the Ross switches, it lines the switch the right direction but the DZ1008 chatters, causing the signal to flash from green to red. The switch motors remain lined.
I will have to try the LED replacement idea.
If there are no wheels completing the circut all is well, the switches will line back and forth as expected with the correct signal light displayed.

Dan

John, there's a diagram on the Z-Stuff site with this fix:
"DZ-1000 & 1008 Non-Derailing Operation with DZ-1008 Track Power Control
The diodes shown below must be added to prevent early drop-out when switch motor is wired for non-derailing operation. 1N4001 from Radio Shack or any 1 amp diode will do."

Diagram

I checked my wiring for a similar application and I had to use the diodes. I don't remember why I had to use the diodes.

quote:

I am trying to use a DZ-1008A relay and a DZ-2500 to control track power.

I bought 12 of these to help my E6 through my long #8 Ross switches. The paper hand out that Ross gave me at York with my #8's seems to show a little different way of wiring than the one that came with my other switches. I hope you will post your findings in English for electrical nitwits like myself

Hi all,

Gary is probably on the right track. The LED's are usually the cause of this problem. The factory in Taiwan that makes the DZ-1000 switch machines will sometimes get a batch of LED's (red or green) that allow too much back voltage. In simple terms, any diode, including light emitting diodes (LED's), are supposed to work like a one-way valve. The LED's that allow too much back voltage essentially "leak" electricity in the wrong direction. When the circuit only drives the LED's on the switch motor and control button it's no big deal. The LED's simply get a little dimmer. But when you hook up a DZ-1008A to the same control circuit the voltage "leak" prevents the relay coil from getting enough power to operate.

The good news is it's easy to test for this problem and easy to fix. The test is to pull out the LED's. If the relay works without the LED's in place they are the problem. The fix is to leave the LED's out or replace them. You can get replacement LED's from Radio Shack or any on-line electronics distributor for very little money.

Thanks everyone. I'll certainly let you know what the solution turns out to be.

What is the procedure for removing the LEDs? How hard is it to remove the cover from the switch machine? What LEDs do I buy at Radio Shack?

Thanks again!

quote:

What is the procedure for removing the LEDs?

Snag them gently with a pair of pliars and pull straight up. Note the flat side on the diode rim and the flat spot in the hole they come out of. Not all LEDs have their leads marked with a flat spot. Some have one longer lead to designate the difference. Do you have any extra button contols or switch machines you can cannabilize for LEDs for test purposes? If you do get a LED in backwards it won't blow. It just won't work/illuminate right.

I don't know the Radio Shack equivilent. I'm fortunate to have a very good electronic surplus store a few blocks away. I took one of the DZ LEDs with me and just picked the same diameter. A yellow LED is also available that I sometimes use for special track conditions.

You may want to try a small wire cutter (diagonal) to remove the LEDs. Gently squeeze the LED near the base and pry it up using the switch machine as a fulcrum. Pliers (needle nose or otherwise) tend to slip off the LEDs when you try to remove them since they are often have a tight fit and you need a firm grip.

The Subject Matter Problem is probably due to "leaking" as described. I too had this problem with several DZ-1000/DZ-1008 combos and spoke with Dennis Zander about it. He suggested I pull out the red LED's on the problematic "combos" and replace them with another or leave them out entirely. This fix remedied all the problems.

Originally, the red LED's on the DZ-1000 worked perfectly when not interfaced with the relay, but when connected the relay did not switch power as designed for a few of my #8 curved and #6 switches causing a short.

This problem can drive you crazy, especially if you check, double check, etc., etc., only to determine you wiring is correct in the first place.

In any event, good luck.

Mike

Well I've tried everything but without success. The good news is that I have three other DZ2500/DZ1008 switches which are working fine sending power to the correct center rail.

I've tried removing the two switch LEDs but have the same symptoms. I tried swapping out the DZ2500 with one from another switch that hasn't been installed and I tried in with both the DZ1008A and the DZ1008. As before the DZ1008A buzzes and both do not switch power.

On the three working switches I hear a faint "pop" from the DZ1008A when switching.

I'll send a note to Dennis Zander and see what he recommends.

Stay tuned!

From my above post:

quote:

I have a crossover, using one DZ1008 off one of the two DZ1000 switch machines to light up signals.
When the train wheels hit the control rail of either of the Ross switches, it lines the switch the right direction but the DZ1008 chatters, causing the signal to flash from green to red. The switch motors remain lined.
I will have to try the LED replacement idea.
If there are no wheels completing the circut all is well, the switches will line back and forth as expected with the correct signal light displayed.

Here is what has happened, I took out the green LEDs off the switch motor, Switches throw properly but seems no power to the DZ1008. Reinstall the LED and power back to DZ1008.

This is also hooked to an AIU. I unhook the AIU and reinstall the LEDS, seems everything is working as it should, but chatter back.

I swap the the green and yellow control wires out of the DZ1008 all is working properly with no chatter, rehook up the AIU and everything is working great now. No chatter. Swap the white an grey wires out of the DZ1008 that control the signal lights and now they corrispond with the switch turnout direction, all is well. The DZ1008 will operate with or without the LEDs in place on the switch motor.

In the end I think swaping the yellow and green wires between the DZ1000 and DZ1008 was the key.

I'm sure glad the first crossover worked correctly right off the bat, it can get frustrating to trouble shoot electrical issues.

I want to thanks all the forum members who pitch in with thier ideas and solutions, I am always learning something.
Dan

Dennis replied and gave me this procedure which I hope to do tonight:

If you have a meter, check the continuity between BLUE and GRAY wires. That is normally a short. Then, connect the RED/GRN to 12-14VAC and the BLK to common. Relay should click and BLU to GRY be open and BLU to WHT be a short. As long as the DZ-2500 operates and the non-de-railing inputs (GRN and YEL wires cause the machine to throw, the DZ-2500s are probably good.

The plot thickens!

Well I tried the procedure Dennis recommended and still had problems. For all of my tests I had the switch center power leads connected to the white and gray wires. I had always measured around 2.2 volts on the white connection when it should have been zero or close to zero.

I then tried disconnecting the switch power leads and tested the DZ2500/DZ1008 switching again. This time it worked perfectly! I believe there is a partial short circuit between the two center power leads on the switch and the small current is keeping the DZ1008 from switching. I looked at the switch and couldn't find anything obvious. I sent a note to Steve at Ross Custom Switches for his ideas.

I'll let you know the outcome.

Steve, from Ross Custom Switches, gave me a procedure to check out the switch.  The switch seems fine.  My next guess is that it's my wiring.  On my three good switches I use 18 gauge wire, on this switch I used 14 gauge because I was out of 18.  Tonight I will buy some more 18 gauge and see what happens.

Dennis Zander said to try 14 volts for relay power.  I'll try that and post the results.

 

John,
Been reading this post with intrests. I too had problems with the DZ1000 and DZ1008. I came
to the conclusion that all the DZ1000s are made the same, BUT there are two kinds of
switches. Left and Right. The DZ1000s work fine but when used in conjunction with the
DZ1008 a problem develops. What I found is that the left hand switches work OK but
the problem is with the right hand switches. (are your right hand switches the problem ones too?)
Anyway, my fix was to reverse the DZ1000 mounting on the right hand switches only.  Turn
them 180 degrees. (See picture) The wiring for both switches is now the same. Red-Red,
Green-Green, Yellow-Yellow)
Once I did that, things started working as expected.
I'm using the DZ1008 to control signals, not track power, but that shouldn't make any diff.
Also, I'm not using the button block that comes with the switch motor. I'm using the
Lionel ASCs. With this configuration, the LEDs only light when power is applied to the switch
motor. Another piece of trivia, the Green LED is furthest from the track, and the Red LED
is close to the track on all my Ross/DZ1000 switches.
I couple of other items: One of the DZ1008s was wired reversed in respect to the White
and Gray leads. And the Yellow wire for the DZ1008 doesn't seem to do anything, but the
Green one is needed. (This makes the relay operate)
I think thats about it for the problems I found and how I resolved them.
Hope this helps. And isn't too confusing.
Joe

PS: Sorry about the picture. I've tried multiple times but the process keeps

hanging in the upload mode. Its only a 177KB file. I upload a photo the other

day and it only took a couple of seconds. Somethings wrong somewhere. If I can

get this uploaded I'll post it 4 you.

John,

Here is that photo I promised. Wierd, I had to change the name of the

file to get it to upload.

Joe

Joe,

the right hand crossover were my problem switches too. I just reversed the input into the DZ1008, swapping the green and yellow wires out of the DZ1008. 

The DZ1008, as has been stated has a normally closed side, (no wire need to operate) and a normally open side that needs a wire to energize to operate. This is the input from either the yellow or green wire. If one does not work properly, swap those two around and it should.  

 

I have gotten the boards to install a Custom Signals/Atlas signal system on a portion of my layout that I am finalizing the wiring plan. The DZ1008s play an important part to tell the turnout board the turnput position. I'm glad I started using them to wire up the standard Lionel 450 signal bridge. It helped me get some idea of what they are doing and the little quirky wiring problem with the DZ1000 on a right hand switch.

 

I think the operating signal system will be cool when up and running.

 

Dan

Joe, my problem is with a left hand #8 switch.  I have two #8s, left and right, successfully working with DZ2500/DZ1008s controlling track power.  I've returned the switch to Ross for an exchange and hope the new one will work properly.

John,

Hopefully that will solve your problem. So far all my Ross switches have been

bullet proof, the prblems were with the switch motors.

Dan,

I'm using the Custom Signals/Atlas too. They are too "cool" and Terry is

very helpful. One minor setback, the TSC2s are on backorder. These interface

between the switch and the signals. If your on Terry's e-mail list he will

keep you advised about them.

Joe

I had a Ross 11 degree crossing between two loops of track. To gain further operations, I decided to replace it with two Ross 11 degree Y's back to back, essentially forming a double slip switch. I cut down the length of the single lead in tracks to get the switch points closer together.  I had some issues with a double slip which prompted me to use the Y's. Anyway, I wanted to set them for non-derail continuous running and also independent for switching operations. I also needed to power the closure to keep some of my engines from stalling on the switches.  I am using two DZ 1000's and two DZ1008's. I have been frustrated trying to get all the functions to work properly. I could not find a proper way to wire the switch motors, non derail , powered closure rails all to work properly at the same time. Reading this thread, I went down this morning and removed all the LED's from both the switch motors and controllers. All the functions began to work properly. I have to assume that there was feedback thru the LED's as suggested here. I can live without the lights but I will still have to wire in a toggle switch to interrupt the non-derail when I choose to run operations.

FYI the LEDs are not removable from the DZ2500s.

John,

Did you get this problem resolved?

Greg, I'm still working on this with help from both Ross and Z-Stuff.  I hope to try their suggestions this weekend.  I'm taking so long because my wife and I went on a trip last weekend.  I don't want to work on it on weekday nights because I want to be well rested.  I will report the outcome here.  Thanks for your interest.

I am currently waiting for 2 Dz-1008s to finish my wiring completely.  I have had 3 out of 5 come out of the box and not work.  They are not switching power from white wire to gray wire.  I have 2 working fine so I know how to wire them.  1 is for 1 side of a double crossover and I just tried changing the switch leads-green & yellow wires- as suggested-just in case-no luck.  It's not the switch machine because their info received goes through the DZ-1008.  I'm hoping these last 2 relays work out of the box.  I would like to check this off my list.  I'm not sayin-I'm just sayin...

Good luck with your dilemna.  I'm thinking it's the DZ-1008 that is failing you.

William_1,

The yellow wire on the DZ1008 is only a pass-thru wire for the switch. The

green wire is what makes the relay work. If you are mounting the DZ1008

remotely, you only need the green wire connected to the switch wire that

makes the switch move in the direction you want the relay to operate. In other

words, if the yellow switch wire causes the switch to turn-out and thats the

direction that you want the relay to operate. Then connect the green wire from

the DZ1008 to the yellow wire going to the switch motor(DZ1000). If your DZ1008

is "piggy-backed" onto the DZ1000, then my only suggestion is to turn the

assembly(DZ1000/DZ1008) around 180 degrees. And leave the wiring straight.

See the RH switch in this photo. I struggled with this for a few days until

I came to the realization, just turn the switch motor around, it solved my problems.

The DZ1000s are all built the same way, but there are two kinds of switches.

Left hand and Right hand. So the wiring has to change or the position of

the switch motor has to change. Their design favors a LH switch.

Joe

Greg, thanks for the info.  So far I've tried a DZ1008 and a DZ1008A, both with the same failure.  I have a brand new DZ1008A that I will also try this weekend.  I hope you're right that it's the 1008!   

Hmm...it works with my LH switches on the double xover not the RH ones. I remember seeing Z Stuff had turned their machines around on a wiring diagram I saw.  My machines are 'piggybacked' together.  So it's the yellow wire from DZ 1008 to switch machine directly- I have a new style machine I could try this out on.  I don't get why turning the machine around would change anything wiring wise between the two.  I also have another switch to test the relay on.  Thanks-something tells me you are on to something, although I'm still a little hazy why.  I'm going to check it out tomorrow.        

Here is a schmatic for the DZ1008. Hopfully it will remove some of

the "magic" from these little black boxes.

Joe

William,

It doesn't change the wiring. It changes the direction the little arm moves,

that is connected to the switch. Thats why I say they favor the LH switch.

See the schmatic I just posted. The yellow wire is a pass-thru, the green

is what makes the relay work.

Joe

But the 1008 isn't transferring the power from white wire to gray wire.  Why would turning the switch machine around change that?  I'm talking about the piggyback scenario where they are together.  Or do I have to use the new style with wires on the master switch machine to make this work-so I can reverse connections from 1008 to L & R on sw machine?  Which I will gladly do if that is the case.

Thanks again.  I love figuring stuff like this out. 

William,

Look at the schmatic. The common is the "blue" wire the "gray" is the "NC"

(normally close) and the "white" is the "NO"(normally open) If you are transfering

power, put it on the "blue" wire. When the relay is idle(normally closed) the power

will come out the "gray" wire. When the relay operates. The power will come

out of the "white" wire. The trick is to make the relay operate when the switch

changes position.

William,

As long as the two devices are "piggy-backed" DON'T interchange the wires.

The RED, YELLOW, GREEN are physically connected through the pins coming

out the DZ1008. If "piggy-backed". I would use the wires from the DZ1008

only and insulate the wires coming from the DZ1000(New style).

Joe

Which I cannot do on the RH switch when they are piggybacked.  I need to seperate 1008 and sw machine, so I can switch leads from 1008 to sw machine.  Am I getting warmer?  And by switching the leads I may have to reposition the sw machine opposite it's current position so it lines straight when I push straight on the Cab1 because the feeds have been reversed.  Is that correct?  

It's starting to make sense- if that is correct.  I kind of thought the relay was working.  It's clicking- and if one switch position (L or R) controls the feed to gray and white wire, switching the leads between the two may be the ticket.  I also notice on the Z Stuff & RCS diagrams showing relays they have the machine on a RH switch on the other side of the switch with white and gray wires reversed coming out of the 1008, which would indicate it's reversed inside as well.  

I'll know by 7 am tomorrow.  Thanks again.   

 

     

Ahhhh so U R using Lionel ASCs like me. I'm not sure if I understand your

answer. But if you leave the wiring as it came and just rotate the switch

machine it should work. My DZ1008s operate a signal system. So when

a switch turns-out the signal light becomes RED In other words when the RH

switch turns-out, the relay operates. And I think that is what you are trying

to accomplish. Or apply power to something when the switch operates.

On my ASCs I'm bring the GND in on the "common" punching.

On the "T" punching(thru) I connec to the "green" wire for the switch. On

the "O" punching(out) I connect to the "yellow" wire for the switch. I did this

for both L and R hand switches. AND I rotated (180), the switch motors on the

RH switchs only. Another photo:

LH switch on left, RH switch on the right. Both motors pointed in the

same direction. If you look closely, you might be able to see the

screw holes from where it was origionally mounted. I don't know what else

to say, but it works 4 me!

I have had alot of these probems myself a friend showed me how to wire a dz 1000 to lionels sc 2 switch controller swithes work great vince

But rotating the switch machine to the other side isn't going to change the fact that the relay is not switching power from white to gray wire.  It's still wired the same from 1008 to sw machine.  I do use ASCs and I got all my switches & LEDs working perfectly.  Now I'm backpedaling here...  

I can understand your frustration. I struggled with this for about two weeks, until

I got it to work. I can tell you this the LEDs are the last of your problems The power

is not going to switch until the relay operates. I don't understand the relunctance

in reversing the switch motor around. Sometimes you have to back-up to go forward.

I have had to do that a few times while building my layout.