Returned Mogul Runs Well, But Can You Identify This Noise

That's gear noise or something rubbing along your Fastrack ties.  

Maybe check the pickup rollers on the loco and tender; check to see if all truck wheels spin freely?  Otherwise, take the shell off and see if the motor is secure; flywheel not rubbing anything?

Maybe the Flywheel is rubbing against something. That would not surprise me much, it is a small engine!

Can you do another video of running forward, stopping, then in reverse? 

I would place it is a cradle upsidedown and place some clip leads on a pickup roller and frame and see if you still hear the noise. Sounds like poor gear mesh to me.

Pete

dwp425 posted:

.. hopefully you can hear the minor grinding/rubbing noise.  It does not make this noise in reverse.  I removed the bottom plate and made sure the main gear was greased sufficiently.  

 

I'll third the gear noise. Most Legacy steamers have an intermediate gearset between the worm and the axle gear that rides on a separate shaft.

These gears usually slide over a bit from the force of the worm. They'll slide one way in forward and back the other way in reverse. Yours may be out of spec sliding over too far in forward cause the gears to mesh on the edge.

When my original legacy k4 was shipped this shaft was sliding almost halfway out of the gearbox.

 IMO. While key to slow speed operation these extra gears are a week point.

Rick, this engine doesn't have an intermediate gear unless the gearbox was changed out as part of the repair. As first delivered they only had a motor worm and worm gear mounted on the axle.

Pete

Gotcha Pete . Hmmm maybe the axle gear is meshing too far to one side of the worm.

Hopefully it's something simple for the OP. That noise just sounds a bit harsh for a flywheel encoder rubbing. 

OK.  As requested, here is another video showing the engine going forward, stopping, then going in reverse.  I don't hear the noise in reverse.

Ok you will need to pull the shell off and check where things are in relation to the flywheel .  While the up and down motion of the flywheel isn’t much, I would bet there’s something lodged inbetween the flywheel and motor.  When in reverse the flywheel lifts just enough from the motor that what ever is rubbing in forward,  not to in reverse.  That’s my guess.

 Could also be as simple as a wire or the LED for the fire glow rubbing against the flywheel.  Also check the tac sensor, the bracket is not bent and 90 deg to that screen Lionel now uses instead of tac tape.

Received my Mogul back today and it still runs “Choppy”. Although it seems it may be somewhat better its still noticeable, especially when running along side or just behind another Legacy locomotive. I really love this little engine and would like to keep it but it still isn’t right. I’m curious how others made out. Thanks

MICHAEL464 posted:

Received my Mogul back today and it still runs “Choppy”. Although it seems it may be somewhat better its still noticeable, especially when running along side or just behind another Legacy locomotive. I really love this little engine and would like to keep it but it still isn’t right. I’m curious how others made out. Thanks

If you are going to keep it then I would lube it up and run the heck out of it. Hopefully it simply needs a good break in  period. Keep us posted. 

I'd give a nod to gear noise as well, many times that will manifest itself in only one direction.  It's starting to sound like the "fix" wasn't all inclusive.

Well, I took off the shell.  It's definitely not a flywheel problem ... no rubbing on anything in either direction.  But, it still makes the noise when I run it with the shell removed.  I also attached leads to the engine with the shell off, held it in the air, and still get the noise.  I guess it's a gear noise for sure.  With the bottom plate removed, I can see there is a bit if side-to-side play with the main gear on the axle, but no apparent rubbing of the gear on anything.  Maybe I'll just live with it.  When the sounds are turned up, it's not terribly noticable.

Did you pull out the center wheel set? If so do the axle bearings slide out easily or were they stuck in place? If the latter the worm gear may not be fully engaged with the motor worm. Also as you peer into the gearbox tunnel is the motor gear centered in the tunnel. 

Pete

dwp425 posted:

Well, I took off the shell.  It's definitely not a flywheel problem ... no rubbing on anything in either direction.  But, it still makes the noise when I run it with the shell removed.  I also attached leads to the engine with the shell off, held it in the air, and still get the noise.  I guess it's a gear noise for sure.  With the bottom plate removed, I can see there is a bit if side-to-side play with the main gear on the axle, but no apparent rubbing of the gear on anything.  Maybe I'll just live with it.  When the sounds are turned up, it's not terribly noticable.

Thats too bad. I suppose there's plenty of clearance between the drive wheels and the frame? (I ask because I once had an HO model that had a similar issue, and lack of side play was the reason.)

If it were me, I'd keep looking into it: I would hate for this problem to eventually cause something more serious.  

Best of luck with this...it does look nice!

Mark in Oregon

Let me make sure I'm understanding what's happened to you guys and your Lionel Moguls:

* You sent them to Lionel to be fixed.

* You received them back with something else wrong? (Or did they not fix the issue?)

Either way:

IMHO: Lionel REALLY needs to make like a sailor and get their ship together.

Andre

dwp425 posted:

When the sounds are turned up, it's not terribly noticable.

I would NOT live with that, there is clearly something very wrong, and it can only get worse.  The chances of this running long-term are not good!

I noticed in the 2nd video that the center drive axle moves when you go into reverse.  Looks like the wheel is sucked closer to the frame.  Could have something to do with that axle's lateral position to the rest of the drive train.

sinclair posted:

I noticed in the 2nd video that the center drive axle moves when you go into reverse.  Looks like the wheel is sucked closer to the frame.  Could have something to do with that axle's lateral position to the rest of the drive train.

I saw that too; I agree with GRJ and others; it's gears; I would sent it and a copy of the video back to Lionel repair; or one of the techs on the forum.

Keep us up on your progress.

I'm still perplexed why the earlier TMCC run of these didn't have these issues but the Legacy ones do.  Has anyone definitively identified the problem?  I'm not sure I ever heard what Lionel was actually doing to fix them.  Obviously this one isn't fixed!

Here is a picture of the center wheelset used on the TMCC Mogul. The only difference is the gear is a smaller diameter than the one used on the Legacy version. Check to make sure that gear is centered on the axle. You can measure the distance to each wheel bearing or just look at the gear in relationship to the spline on the axle. You can see in the pic its fairly well centered here.

I checked sideplay on my Legacy Mogul and its about the same as the one in the video. 

If the gear is in fact centered than that sideplay is not enough to move it out of mesh with the worm but if its off center than it may move it too far for good mesh.

Pete

Your only option is for a refund, Lionel will not touch these again.  I’m 99% certain of that.  Good luck.

I opened the bottom again, and gently lifted the center wheel set to look at the worm gear underneath.  It appears to be centered.  Here's a picture of the center wheel set back in place.  The gear on the axle appears to be centered also.

Something is very wrong, you should not hear that kind of gear noise.  I know I sure wouldn't keep it!

That is very unfortunate, I am very happy with my  revamped and well traveled Mogul. 

dwp425 posted:

I opened the bottom again, and gently lifted the center wheel set to look at the worm gear underneath.  It appears to be centered.  Here's a picture of the center wheel set back in place.  The gear on the axle appears to be centered also.

That gear looks worn (top right corner).

Only other thing I can think of is the motor worm is not pushed onto the motor shaft far enough. If there is too much thrust movement in the armature the worm gear may be hitting end of the threaded portion of the worm. I recall checking mine to make sure this wasn't happening as unthreaded section was directly over the center of the axle. The reason the wormgear doesn't normally hit this section is the motor is angled but it must be close.

Pull the axle out again and see if you can move the armature back and forth.

Pete

Do you have the shell off? Can you see anything from the top side? ......if your content with keeping it, and not sending it back, maybe all of us can try an attempt at an armchair diagnosis....that’s only if your not going to return it....like Pete mentioned, if the nose of the worm is trying to burry itself in the worm wheel, you’ll get noise.....if your not comfortable roaming around inside, then it may be best to send it back .....I’m not advocating snooping around...but only if you insist on not sending it back...........Pat

When you had it open did you clean all the grease off the gear and check it for wear??

Thanks for the suggestions.  I'm an amateur, but learning.  The shell is off, nothing obviously wrong from the top, motor is tight.  I tried holding the engine upside down, lifted out and disengaged the center wheel set and gear, and applied power to spin the worm gear unengaged from the main gear.  It spins silently in both forward and reverse.  Then when dropping the wheel set back in, re-engaging the main gear with the worm gear, and applying power, the noise returns (in forward only, not reverse).  I checked the worm gear and armature, no looseness or play in any direction.  I didn't want to return it again, but now may have no choice.

The main gear does not look worn to me.  Of course, total run time (at least in my possession) is very minimal.

This is a sticky situation, you may wish to go ahead and return it .....as it’s been mentioned, and honestly, I’m in that camp too....but for arguments sake, can you snap a picture of the top side as best as you can of the gear box area....just incase we can catch a simple fix....maybe a long shot?....but ya never know............Pat

To me it sounds as if the worm gear is barely engaging the drive gear on the axle. Kind of like it is hitting the top of the drive gear making that 'buzzing' noise. I would say the angle of the motor is slight off and not fully engaging the axle gear going forwards.

Try putting a shim under the rear of the motor and then see how it sounds.

Norton posted:

Here is a picture of the center wheelset used on the TMCC Mogul. The only difference is the gear is a smaller diameter than the one used on the Legacy version. Check to make sure that gear is centered on the axle. You can measure the distance to each wheel bearing or just look at the gear in relationship to the spline on the axle. You can see in the pic its fairly well centered here.

I checked sideplay on my Legacy Mogul and its about the same as the one in the video. 

If the gear is in fact centered than that sideplay is not enough to move it out of mesh with the worm but if its off center than it may move it too far for good mesh.

 

Pete

I am looking at Pete's picture and see a little nub on the top of each bearing.  Your picture shows no nub; is that nub supposed to be face up or down when installed??

Maybe lifting the motor out and checking how it is seated; then re-installing may make a change; have had to do that kind of fiddling with the tenders on 2 2018 tenders to get the wheels to turn.

The gears are either not fully engaged or the worm gear is hitting the uncut end of the worm. You can test the engagement my removing the siderods and rocking the wheelset back and forth. Play should be very slight. 

If engagement appears to be OK you might be able to place a shim between the motor and the motor mount to pull it back slightly. Something as thin as bread wrapper clips might be enough. Also some of the new Legacy engines have the gear held on with set screw rather than pressed on. If thats the case its just a matter of loosening the screw and moving the gear as close to the motor as possible.

The motor on the Legacy engine has a larger diameter than the one on the TMCC engine and may have required the motor to be mounted further forward to avoid hitting the shell??

Pete

Rick, The nub is installed facing the main frame. They are only on one side. There are holes in the frame to accept the nub. On the rear axle the nubs hold springs in place. 

Pete

Norton posted:

Rick, The nub is installed facing the main frame. They are only on one side. There are holes in the frame to accept the nub. On the rear axle the nubs hold springs in place. 

Pete

Pete, wonder if reversing the nubs would have an effect - of course, maybe the cover plate would not fit?  Are the holes in his frame there or too small??  The motor worm and gears must be out of alignment somehow - maybe at the extreme of their tolerances?