Running Issue with Lionel Commodore Vanderbilt

Joe,

 

I had an issue with an MTH Premier GG1 in which the motor with the tach reader wouldn't start to turn but the other would.  Once the engine was moving everything worked very well except at low speeds.  It turned out the one was going bad.  If you can, try disconnecting one motor at a time to to see if the engine performance is better.  Hope this helps.

 

-Ryan

Joe, try a run in.  Sometimes these big heavy beasts need a little running in to loosen them up... try it off the track first.  Also look at the thrust of the wheelsets and make sure that there isnt a side to side bind against the bearing on the axle.

 

Does it run better in reverse?

 

Also Look at the gauging of the wheels... if the rail head is tight against the flanges, that adds a ton of friction.

Joe are you running it in tmcc or conventional if in tmcc sounds like a bad drive board , I have a extra non odessey drive board if you need one it's a Lionel drive board I can take a picture of it to compare let me know KG

Thanks guys. I'll take a better look at the motors and wheel sets. 

 

It does the same thing going in reverse. I'll let it run at a moderate speed for a while and see if there is any difference.

 

I have only tried running under command control. I will try it under conventional running and see what happens. I'll report back after I check these.

 

I appreciate the help.

Update. So I put the engine up on blocks and ran it stationary in conventional mode. It ran perfectly, no stuttering at all. I let it run for a while at different speeds, backward and forward. I even put a little resistance on the wheels with my hand and it still ran smooth. 

 

I tried it on the layout again with TMCC and it continued to stutter at slow speeds.

 

I then replaced the DCDR borad and tried it again. It still ran bad, so I think that rules out the driver board. I wonder if one of the other boards could be causing the problem.

Joe, is the headlight blinking?

 

This sounds like a signal issue to me now.  Clean your track, wheels, and make sure that the antenna in the loco is connected properly.  If that doesn't do it , then I would call Lionel and see if there is a board fix for it.

Hi Joe, I replied to you on another thread but lost track of it. I was under the impression that you were running conventional. I would start that engine up and then shut her back down. Move the program switch and reprogram the unit. Reset the switch to run and re calibrate your STALL SPEED. I believe that you may have had it set too low to begin with. If this works give the unit plenty of break in time before lowering the stall speed . I run my TMCC O gauge locos at a very low stall speed. Sta. ga. on the other hand is not only a different ball game but much heavier locos. I believe that your stall speed is set too low.     148th

Rob,

 

The headlight is not blinking. I checked the antenna connection and that all looks good.

 

1/48th,

 

I will try reprogramming the unit and will then play with the stall speed.

 

Thank you both for the ideas.

Ok, dumb question time.......how do I increase the stall speed? I know how to set the stall speed but I'm unsure how to increase it.

Scott,

 

It's not a lack of constant speed, the enginge is actually runs like someone is shaking it. I have the Hiawatha and before I put cruise control in it, it ran fine.

Have you tried running the engine on the track in conventional mode? That may narrow down if it is a TMCC problem or some other problem related to the engine's ability to pull itself around the track.

 

Seems to me that if it is only doing it in the curves, and if it does the same in conventional, it would be a mechanical issue, and if not, then something with the TMCC.

 

Do these things have gear boxes? Could the side loading on the drivers in a curve be binding some internal gears or the wheels or linkage? I ask because it sounds as if it runs fine on the straight sections. Can you put a slight side load on the drivers when running on blocks with a pencil eraser or dowel rod to see if it binds?

 

I don't know modern stuff at all, but generally, old stuff had a fair amount of side to side slop in it so it could navigate curves. If I remember, the SG Hiawatha I had no play in the axles, and I don't think you could even turn the wheels by hand.

 

Anyway, just ideas that I've been thinking about.

I have an off the wall idea. Can you put a voltmeter on the pickup roller wires and see if it reads steady while traveling around the track? Then do the same with the ground side to the motors.

 

I had pickup rollers that had picked up some type of fiber and it became wound up in between the roller and the pin and insulated it from contacting. It would only have continuity on turns when it was side loaded.  I had to take it apart and ream out the debris and then it would work again. The test is worth the try.

 

 

If that doesn’t work, you can drop it off at my house, it’s just down the state a bit from you. And you wouldn’t want an erratic running train on that nice layout of yours.

 

Keep us posted with your findings. It is probably something simple

 

Bluecometk

Joe, you might even try putting a drop of synthetic oil on the rollers and see if that clears it up... His comment reminded me of a situation I had with a new release and the oil clear it right up.      Who knows...eventually we'll either talk you in to selling it to us, or get 'er fixed.

 

jsrfo,

 

No, I haven't tried it on the track in conventional mode. I will try that. You're right that should tell me if it's a mechanical issue or electrical.

 

bluecometk and Rob,

 

I will check on the rollers too. They could be the culprit.

 

I'm still not sure how to increase the stall speed. Anybody know how to do that? The manual tells you how to set the stall speed but not how to increase it.

Joe, Unless I'm mistaken, the speed at which you push the set button to set the stall voltage is the speed at which the engine will also start . You should push the set button after you move your loco and are comfortable with that as also a starting voltage. You should also set the momentum on that engine. Not sure if I should say L or H. What you need to do is make that loco respond quickly to voltage change as per rotation of the control wheel on the remote. I can't imagine that a TMCC equipped loco does not have these features, but I, not owning that machine, do not know the answer to that question. If all fails why not try running it in conventional for a while to break it in,then go back and try all these suggestions. The engine is 10-11 yrs. old and your warranty no-longer exist, what could be the harm? Good luck and keep us posted. 148th

While I'm in the process of trying to figure out this issue, how about a few pictures of the beast?

 

 

 

 

 

Dang.  That thing is awesome... gonna have to get mine out!

 

It darn near fills the ENTIRE Hellgate Opening!

That is SWEET!

 

It's no secret that I do not like reproductions, but this Commodore and the Hiawatha are exceptional. I like this one better than the Hiawatha, personally, because as nice as the Hiawatha is, it takes a huge layout to properly run.

 

I am waiting to see how this works out for you. I've been looking for the right one of these for a while.

Believe it or not, the Commodore actual requires more space to run because it's cab has more overhang than the Hiawatha but the cars are smaller.

 

More test results.......I carefully checked the rollers. They seem fine. I relubed them and the pickup hinges a bit but that made no difference. I did run it on the track in conventional mode and it ran fine. I was able to run it slow with no shaking. So, this pretty much eliminates the problem being mechanical.

 

I then played around with the stall and momentum settings but was unable to make a difference. Well at least we're getting it narrowed down.

It's unfortunate that these were originally not accepted well. Which is why Lionel stopped production of modern Standard Gauge. Just think what could have been.

I remember the LHS blowing their two Commodore sets out for maybe $900. I just missed those. It seemed like one week they were $1800, and the next they were gone. When I asked, they said Lionel blew them out cheap.

 

It took about 7 years but I got the last Hiawatha from the same LHS for $1200. That was a deal, but the set was too big.

Nice pictures. I own a MTH 400e Blue Comet. These engines are all magnificent looking pieces of art. You've stated that the center unflanged drivers power themselves and the other drivers thru the side rods. Therefore the center axle is the geared axle. You've also said that the loco is driven by two motors. I'd like to ask a question. Are these motors vertical or horizontal, and is there a gear housing with grease that they are located in? If the motors are  horizontal they most likely have a normal tooth gear that drives the axle gear. If they are vertical they will have a worm shaft and the axle gear will be a wormed gear. Can you tell me is which is which? I may be able to solve this problem.   148th

The two motors are vertical and sit in a gear housing with grease.

I'd consider the jerkyness might be a TMCC Grounding problem....

 

If so, try & power your layout System WITHOUT a surge protector....

 

Use a 3 way hard rubber plug in it's place ????.....

 

 Dennis from GBay, WI

Dennis,

 

If that was the case, I would think that my other TMCC engines would also be affected but they are not.

If they are vertical they will have a worm shaft and the axle gear will be a wormed gear.

The motors on the Vanderbilt and Hiawatha are vertical but they must be using bevel gears, not worm gears, because you can push the engine along and the wheels will turn. A worm drive will not allow you to turn the wheels. 

Joe,

Did you try seeing if the wheels are tight to the rails in the curve? IE no side to side play or rising up the track edge in the curve? If so, that might be causing the jerkyness in the curve. (I think Mr English mentioned this earlier)

-Pat Rolland

Hey Pat.

 

I thought about the binding on the curves too but it also does it on straight track at slow speeds. Also, it only happens under command control. In conventional mode it runs fine, so it seems to be an electronic issue and not a mechanical issue.....I think.

Hey Joe try this when you're in Tmcc mode fire up the engine but give no throttle then hit set then turn the red throttle counterclockwise and hit set again and see if that solves the problem if that doesn't work then for sure it may be the rl2c plug in tmcc board maybe try another plug-in from another engine to see if the issue goes away also
KG

Joe, If that loco has two vertical motors operating with worm gears or bevel gears, that is ONE of your problems. Both of those motors are attached to the same gear on the center axle. If both of those motors are NOT running at the same POWER or RPM the other motor is pushing the axle gear into the opposing worm or bevel gear (not pushing it up or into, but much rather twisting it into the other motor gear). It could be a motor or a board problem. ( This is my edit: Since your CV Hudson seems to run soundly in conventional, my opinion is not any motor fault, but most likely a board or what I stated regarding the unflanged wheels. It obviously has no speed control or I would never have stated the twin motors might be out of sync. ).Secondly, you spoke of a great cab overhang in running your engine. I have a 400e that I run at Christmas time on 42" track. It also has a great overhang and only has two drive wheels to maneuver through 42" track. If your running that loco on 42" track, that locos center drivers are most likely not making contact with the rails when it negotiates the curve. Aside from the fact that the center drivers DO help drive that loco on the straights ( the blind driver do make contact with the rails ), you are losing them on the curves, and the six wheels expanse, with two outer flanged wheels,  in my opinion is too great for 42" curve track.  This is causing your slowing and shaking in the curves. I've never been a fan of Lionel putting the power of the engine in the center blind driver and using the side rods to power the outside flanged wheels. If it is not one or both of these issues, I'm as baffled as you are. Let us know how you make out. 148th

Runs fine in conventional? To me, that indicates that there's nothing wrong with the locomotive proper. It's gotta be in the TMCC.

 

Does this thing have speed sensors? I am wondering if the measuring device that feeds the computer, generally some sort of magnet or maybe a tape stripe with timing marks may be damaged, misplaced, or some other related  issue. Just an idea.

There is no speed control in these engines. They were made before Odyssey.

 

It does look like a CC problem so a board swap might be in order.

Well this is where we are at. I tried what Steam engine suggested with the stall speed and that made no difference.

 

I then installed a thrid driver board just to fully rule that out and that made no difference.

 

I then set up some 072 track on the floor and tried the engine under command control. It ran fine. I could not get it to stutter at all. I then placed it back on the layout and it started stuttering again. I then thought that maybe it is the outlet the TMCC unit is plugged into. I then plugged the unit it to the outlet I used for the 072 test track. The engine still stuttered. What?

 

Now I can understand binding on 042 curves but this is happening on a staight track, no binding. I checked side to side clearance on the drivers and there is plenty of play, even on the 042 curves. 

 

I may try and swap the rest of the electronics with another engine. Other than that, I'm pretty much out of ideas. 

Joe, If in fact that loco runs well under TMCC in 72", and you need to run it on 42" , I suggest you move the blind driver to the front or rear of your engine. This placement of power in the center blind driver and powered by side rods is a flaw in Lionel design since get go, including O ga. I've realigned engines with center tired drivers in O ga. and had my problem solved. Don't swap your electronics, SWAP THE DRIVERS.  148th

Joe, If in fact that loco runs well under TMCC in 72", and you need to run it on 42" , I suggest you move the blind driver to the front or rear of your engine. This placement of power in the center blind driver and powered by side rods is a flaw in Lionel design since get go, including O ga.The side rods for that engine are stamped steel, no bearings. At least the original 700e's/763e's had bearings! That is a great difference in applied power to the idlers.  I've realigned engines with center tired drivers in O ga. and had my problem solved. Don't swap your electronics, SWAP THE DRIVERS. I doubt it will change the overhang of that engine on 42", and it will run smoothly. GOOD LUCK!  148th

Joe,

Do a continuity test between the handrails on the loco and the frame. There should be none as the handrails are the TMCC antennas. The nickle plated handrails have black insulating pieces ( sleeves) at all contact points of the boiler. If that checks out ok, then swap the R2LC command board with another good one from another TMCC loco (if ya got one)  and see if that helps.

As a side note I just got my CV out and ran it a bit ( by itself) on my 042 track and it ran fine. slowed down a bit going into the curve but no bucking or stuttering.

-Pat

 

Well yeah Pat, slow downed a bit in the curve (reiteratation?) . Read the above again. Joe's cornering is solved. If the TMCC signal was vague, it would not have even started!   148th

Joe this is an interesting problem.  I have one more suggestion.  Do you know what a Ground plane is?

 

Take a bare copper wire, lay it next to your 042 track (not touching it!) and put the end into the ground  of an outlet or to the ground rod for your house.... it might clean up the signal, that for some reason is affecting just the commodore.  I have seen this before with another loco or 3.  One of which I had to sell because it would NEVER run right.

One more TMCC Engine fix try..........

 

 It ran fine on the O-72 TMCC test track....

 

Fix might be cleaning dirty rails on layout or wheels on the Commadore or both???

 

The Mystery has been narrowing toward a FIX......

 

 

Dennis M from GBay, WI