Sad news on UP crash in Arkansas

With GPS technology, modern signals and dispatching, HOW is this possible?  

Is it distracted crews (cell phones, texting, etc.)?

Overworked and tired crews (falling asleep)? Crews NOT getting enough rest between trips?

Or just plain "operator error"?

This the 21st Century and it is TIME for these incidents to cease!! 

With GPS technology, modern signals and dispatching, HOW is this possible?

Is it distracted crews (cell phones, texting, etc.)?

Overworked and tired crews (falling asleep)? Crews NOT getting enough rest between trips?

Or just plain "operator error"?

This the 21st Century and it is TIME for these incidents to cease!!

I like everyone else here have no idea how this happened. 

However, in my opinion GPS, modern signals, technology, etc are the reason it's still possible for these icidents and others such as pl;ane crashes.

People end up turning over their lives to these systems instead of monitoring the systems.  No amount of tech  will ever be 100%.  Just like people turning over their lives to cell phones and texting.

I am an electronics tech for the USAF...I have a saying at work..."Humans are too stupid for technology".  We always seem to rely on the technology instead of using it as another tool to help us make decisions, we let it make decisions for us.  Things can and will go SNAFU.

That is all for the investigative team to find out.  Not a bunch of folks on a train forum.

Rusty

That's why it's a Forum, to talk and speculate.

I made mention of the Railroads doing all of this "Safety" talk several years ago and was attacked by the "Railroads can do no harm" foamers.

Whatever. The railroads claim safety and keep wanting to automate, even use one freight operator, but their track record proves that they are not ready.

Definitely, safety professionals do not accept the notion that something was an accident; all incidents have a cause, which can be remedied. At least that is the guiding philosophy.

     Trains Magazine columnist Fred Frailey has an interesting column this month re oil trains. Despite all the furor about how dangerous and unsafe they are, not one person has been killed, or injured, by an oil train in the USA. 

We should start seeing PTC implemented next year, which should greatly reduce this type of incident on lines so equipped. I worked for a busy transit system which had trains that were fully automatically controlled.  In forty years there was never a collision between trains running under automatic control.   The problem with these systems is they are fail safe, so any problem brings everything to a stop. In time bugs get worked out, but it can be difficult getting to an acceptable level of reliability. 

quote:

 Despite all the furor about how dangerous and unsafe they are, not one person has been killed, or injured, by an oil train in the USA. 

Canada was close enough for many.

However, the kind of speculation that goes on with this kind of thing is often a complete waste of time. Useless banter without any facts - just an excuse to gossip. 

I love it how some of you idealists think that ALL accidents can be prevented. Art, these accidents will NEVER cease...and I suggest you figure out how to deal with it!

These accidents happen because HUMAN BEINGS operate these trains and HUMAN BEINGS (all except one) are not perfect.

That's it in a nutshell.

My  heart goes out to everyone involved in the accident.  Especially to the 2 individuals that were killed.

My dad was involved in 2 fatal accidents as an engineer with the PRR and even though he was cleared of any responsibility by the respective review boards, it troubled him his entire career.  

I  spent my career in the technology field and the one thing I learned for certain about technology is that there is no such thing as a truly fail safe system.  Just look at the accidents of major airliners.  And if it turns out to be human error then the term itself says it all.  A mistake by a human.

In spite of what we would all hope we will always have accidents since humans make mistakes  Humans also design, develop and implement all technology.

In spite of best efforts and intentions we will unfortunately always have accidents.

Just my 2 cents

Ed

Link with pictures. My wife is from Hoxie AR.  Her mom is nearby but unaffected.

http://www.kait8.com/story/262...ning-train-collision

Head on collision between two trains, Hoxie area & Hwy 63-.South Hoxie Evacuating Due to Late Night Train Collision

At 2:36 am page alerts went out to the Hoxie Fire Department and Walnut Ridge Hazmat for what was thought to be a train derailment on the tracks on hwy 67 towards Minturn.

Once responders were on scene they found what appeared to be a head on collision between two trains. There are reports of a least two dead, several injured, a chemical spill, and one of the trains on fire.

At 3:30 am Lawrence County Sheriffs Office, Walnut Ridge Police Department and Hoxie Police Department began evacuating the south end of Hoxie. Walnut Ridge and Hoxie PD are going door to door evacuating people at this time. The Walnut Ridge Community Center has been opened up to take in the evacuees from Hoxie.

Lawrence County OES and ADEM were both notified of the disaster. Walnut Ridge Fire Department has called for assistance from Greene County and Randolph County Hazmat Teams.

Craighead County and the Arkansas State Police have brought in units to help block traffic on Hwy. 63 into Hoxie.

Representatives from Union Pacific are on their way to assess the situation.

BNSF calls it Human factor Incidents (HFI)..... as long as there are humans involved, there will be incidents! Like Rich said.... they will NEVER stop.

According to locals.... the engineer of each train died and two others jumped and were injured but were heard yelling for help and the locals got to them before they burned in the fire.   

Rich:

I am glad you still have a sense of humor - "all except one"!  

One system which MIGHT save lives is the ATS system ATSF, now BNSF used on some of its lines.  At least it is a system that has been out there for decades!

A sense of humor? I don't understand.

Maybe I should have written it this way, "All except The One."

Hoxie and Walnut Ridge are not far from where I live.  Talked to a couple of folks that live near the accident and they said if was so loud that it sounded like a huge series of explosions....

Alan

Rich:

At least you believe in something.  And it is not something from POLAR EXPRESS!

Everything helps, Dominic, but ATS is not failure-proof from human behavior.  I can think of two bad wrecks which occurred in Santa Fe ATS-protetected territory:

• In January, 1956, the Budd RDC's turned over at high speed on a 15 MPH curve at Redondo Jct. (in Los Angeles).  Track speed leading up to the curve was 65 MPH, and there was an inert ATS inductor in advance of the curve.  (There are two kinds of wayside ATS inductors: Inert, which are always "on" to protect locations where a great reduction in speed is required); and active (which are "on" when the adjacent block signal displays any aspect less favorable than Green).  If the inductor is "on" a warning whistle sounds in the cab and -- on the old style in use in 1956 - the Engineer would have to move an acknowledgment lever and hear a gong, then move the acknowledging lever back to Charging Position.  In spite of all these required activities, the Engineer didn't get the Budds slowed down and they turned over when they hit the curve.  There has been a lot of local urban legend about mechanical failures, but I read the actual file on this wreck in the General Manager's private file room, and it is obvious that the Engineer just waited too long to start braking for the curve after acknowledging the ATS inductor.
• And, 10 or 15 years later, Amtrak Number 4 turned over on a 20 MPH curve at Lawrence, Kansas.  Again, there was an inert inductor warning of an upcoming speed reduction from 90 MPH to 20 MPH.  Track work had been performed in the area, and maintenance crews had removed the speed sign but had not replaced it.  The inert ATS inductor had not been tested after the track work, and in post-accident testing was found to be out of adjustment and therefore incapable of sounding the warning whistle in the locomotive cab.  An Engineer who had not been over the First District in years, but thought he still knew the road, did not allow for things to look exactly like they did the last time he ran over that District, and realized too late that he was going way too fast approaching the curve.

So, we had one Engineer charge up to the curve with the Budds and wait too long before braking, and another, who relied on his memory and was not helped by a sign which was missing and an inoperative wayside inductor, and, in both cases, fatal passenger train wrecks -- not collisions -- occurred.

Almost always, when you drill down into the cause of a railroad accident, there are contributing causes from more than one source, but human behavior is the root cause.  Less often there is a failure due to design of something, or due to failure of an authorized process (which itself is a human factor because humans design the process and are responsible for making it as safe as possible).  

It is sad, but once a fatal collision or wreck has occurred, we cannot rewind and replay the actual events and thereby avoid it.  Nobody can un-ring a bell.

100% agree...I worked for UP and the number 1 factor has always been the "Human Factor" and especially "Fatigue".

These guys average 5 hours sleep tops...

Here is why:

Although it isi the law that these train crews get 8 hours "rest"....."Rest is not always "sleep". They can only get that if they go to sleep as soon as they step off the train and then step right back on the train after waking, i.e. it is impossible, here is why:

First off, smart train crews under the best case scenario, try to get to a siding or their destination, or really any good place with the help of the train dispatchers, before the time limit expires on their work hours, i.e. at least an hour or sooner.

Otherwise, travel time cuts into your rest time.

Once your work time is up, federal law prevents you from doing any "work" that cuts into your rest time.

For example, you tie up the train at end of your shift, and hope and pray the dispatcher was able to get a van to pick up you up promptly.

Otherwise you have to sit in the train cab waiting for the van during your rest period which has already started, and even if you sleep in the chair of the train (not considered work), your sleep will be broken up when you wake up for when the van arrives.

Then the van takes you to the nearest depot, so you can do your paperwork, if you have not already started to do it or finish it in your train cab or in the van.

This travel time in the van could be a couple of minutes to as long as a few hours.

It usually is at least 30 minutes to an hour.

Either way, even if you do sleep, your sleep is broken up when they wake you once you arrive at the depot.

And even if you finish your trip at the depot, its still gonna be at least 15 minutes to 30 minutes before you hop in your car to drive home or to the hotel.

Now, you must add that travel time, which on average is at least 30 minutes.

Next add time to change clothes, check in, or whatever you have to do when you get home.

So, eventually you go to sleep and then when you wake up, obviously there is time to dress and clean up, eat, and then drive to the depot.

All that cuts into that 8 hour rest time.

So here is a summary:

1) Wake up, shower, shave and eat breakfast.

Best case scenario is 30 minutes,

2) Drive to the depot from home or take the van to depot from hotel.

Best case scenario is 30 minutes.

3) At depot allow at least 15-30 minutes to get water and do paperwork etc.

4) Take van or walk to train.

Allow at least 15 minutes.

5) Drive train

6) At end of shift, wait for van, with a best case scenario of 30 minutes.

7) Travel time to depot, with a best case scenario of 30 minutes.

8) Drive from depot or ride in van to home or hotel with a best case of 30 minutes.

9) Eat, change clothes get ready for bed with a best case of 30 minutes.

ok now do the math and subtract the best case minutes from 8 hours:

8hrs - 30 min - 30 min - 30 min - 30 min - 30 min - 30 min.

This leaves you with 5 hours sleep as a best case scenario.

Do you really think these train crews are at peak or adequate performance after 5 hours sleep at best?

NO WAY!

If the government and the railroads REALLY wanted safety, the crews should get 8 hours "sleep" from the time they leave/arrive at the depot at the very least.

Now for the gotcha!

Notice the law uses the term 'REST'....which is not the same as "Sleep"!

When your train is tied up after shift and you wait for the van that is rest time...it doesnt always mean sleep.

Same with driving , traveling, eating, changing clothes, paperwork, etc etc.

Basically, anything you do on or off the train after the shift ends is considered REST...but not always sleep.

"Rest" is a cheesy loophole to the advantage of the railroad at the expense of the crews.

So, it is incredible that these Super Men and Women are able to do their jobs with as few accidents as there are.

Having worked with these train crews all I can say is they are Super Human!

I was a Dispatcher for UP, and I am still in shock as to how these train crews can perform their jobs safely under such conditions.

And here is some even better news for you folks wanting to be a UP dispatcher.

Dispatchers at UP at least when i was there, are not part of a Union....unlike BNSF.

Thus, whenever anything happens to a train, i.e. an accident, the Union immediately begins helping the train crews, while the Dispatcher has no one helping them.

Before even the investigation begins, the Dispatcher is blamed and the crews are not blamed, UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.

PERIOD.

Why? Because from the get go the train crew has the Union backing them and the Train Dispatcher has NO ONE.

Now of course, this does not mean that some train crews and dispatchers do not confess to their errors and facts from an investigation are not the deciding factor.

Nor does it mean that crews and dispatchers are not honest.

However, I can tell you that at UP, they can hold a dispatcher financially responsible for damages if its their fault.

In a nutshell, the whole process is skewed in favor of the train crew and against the dispatcher.

Despite this, do these folks enjoy their jobs "HECK YEAH", do some hate it, YES....

Either way, I have the utmost respect for anyone who works for any railroad.

The stories are endless....ever wonder what happens along the Mexico border?

Thats a story for another time but it will SHOCK YOU!

Amen.

The tracks at Hoxie/Walnut Ridge are doubled for passing or whatever.  I'm GUESSING that everyone knew the trains were headed at each other but that one would be on one of the two tracks, and the other on the other.  Maybe within a few miles one of them was supposed to switch to the other to allow passing, and by the time they realized this didn't happen it was just too late to stop them.  

Basically it being a double track line right there, I'm sure trains pass each other all the time.  This time something went wrong and both went down the same one.  One single switch is all it takes in a mountain of possible "points of failure".  

Maybe someone didn't catch the fact they were on the same track?

Maybe someone had the switch set to put one on the other track and the system told them it was that way, but in fact the switch wasn't set?

Maybe someone did it on purpose?

Either way two people died and thats sad so lets pray for their families.  I kinda wonder why they engineers didn't jump off along with the other person in the cab?  Were they TRYING to bring the engines to a stop as best they could?

For what it's worth, the UP line in question, was former MoPac and is fully CTC, and has been for some 40 years. There is a passing siding there and what has happened in similar serious "head on" collisions around the country (like the one in broad daylight, out in Oklahoma), is one train takes the siding, at slower speed. The train in the siding doesn't stop for the red signal at the END of the siding, runs through the switch, and is now head on into the opposing train. Stuff happens, even in CTC territory.

Here is the video of the accident HW mentioned.  Notice the signal changes as the train on the main runs out of the block and past the fouling point.

ok, I see what you mean now.

Very obvious in that video, isn't it?

Yeah, I wonder what time this all happened?

Early morning? early evening?

Again, using my experiences at UP as an example, some of the dispatchers knew the track they were responsible for better than their own house. Same with the train crews.

Whenever a red signal was going to be given the dispatchers would always verbally tell the train crew in advance and mutually acknowledge it.

The older dispatcher that trained me would sometimes remind train crews of distances and anomolies in regards to signal placement, distances, all kinds of stuff and would usually get teased about it.

I am trying to see in the video if the approaching train was slowing down or still going full speed.

 The signal before the crossing looks like it was red and/or changed from yellow to red?

Chip,

You have no idea what you are talking about! 

Nobody's rest starts while they are sitting on a train!!!

Your 10 hrs. rest (now required) does not start until you "tie up" or "put off". And, nobody "ties up" until all of the paper work is complete. And, if at a point where one can tie up, we never put off until a ride showed up.

In the case where a crew has "hogged" (reached the hours of service limit) on line of road, they would not tie up until taken to a point where they could tie up or to the motel where the conductor would call the crew management center and tie everyone up. In this case and this day and age, any time over the HOS (12hrs.) is called "limbo time" and this is amount of time is added onto the crew's 10 hrs. rest.

If paper work isn't finished it will have to wait until you go back on duty or be done by the relief crew.

In the vid, the BNSF train coming towards the train filming did run the red bock before the siding switch.

Now, earlier in the year, there was something in TRAINS which should be causing a concern.  There was a situation where a Florida Service Amtrak train,  was to pass a Tropician Juice Train.  The Juice was in the siding, Amtrak was to pass on the main at track speed.  As Amtrak was coming up to the siding, the signals were beginning to show that Amtrak was suppose to go into the siding.  Thinking something was wrong, Amtrak stopped, and called CSX DS at Jax.  The siding switch was set for Amtrak to go into siding, the signal was showing red over yellow, and the Juice was in the siding.  Jax was showing red over red for the same signal. 

Had US DOT and/or CSX dtermined what happend?  Is our signaling system "bulletproff".

The lead engine from the video above: June 19th, 2006

Let me explain, i probably could have worded it better.

Sometimes, the dispatcher would make a determination, he would notify the train of the change he was making "as he did it" or "afterwards" not before.

Yeah, we all knew not to tell crews an indication before hand or as a substitute.

As for the crews or the dispatcher knowing their sub-division better than their own house, YES it DID make a difference.

To say it does not make any difference is silly, because it did.

"When the approaching train crew woke up"?

You are saying they were sleeping? Where did you get this info?

From the results of the FRA/NTSB/BNSF accident investigation. That happened a few years ago, on BNSF, and that in-cab video has been used in various safety training meetings.

Ah ok thanks, the previous incident, not the most recent one.

Knowing your territory does not help or stop these incidents. Just like car accidents, they occur more often....close to home.

In Southern CA this year, we've already had more decerts than in previous years, for the entire year. Most of these are 15-20 year seniority crews that are quite familiar with their territory. HFI's....... they will not ever eliminate them, whether you know the territory or not. S*** happens to anyone and everyone, no mater how thick that rule book gets!

Hey, hey, hey, enough of this blaming BNSF for a UPRR head-on collision. 

No, the signal system is not 100% free from the possibility of showing a false proceed indication to a train.  It actually happens several times a year somewhere in the USA, but it is almost always traced to an unlikely combination of events that could not have been predicted, or to maintenance issues with Signal Department personnel.  Experienced engine crews often get the feeling that something is not as it should be before they get to the location of the false proceed signal.  Usually, they are listening to the radio and hear hotbox detectors, radio conversations, etc. that provide tips to the location of other trains, and they usually have a list of opposing trains for their own use in determining when they might expect to be called again after tying up on their current trip.

Still, false proceed indications are rare, considering the number of trains that pass proceed indications in any given year, and most railroaders never actually do see one in their entire career.