Short engines stalling in Gargraves 042 switches

The Gargraves switch has a dead area in the switch, the plastic frog area will not allow the power for the outside rail to go through it so your small engine may stall. My solution was to add a power clip to the outside rail at both sides coming off of the Gargraves switch because only one rail will have electrical power. On some older Gargraves switches the center rail will also loose power in the switch.

The other option is more expensive, buy a Ross Custom switch with electrical power through the switch and a DZ-1000 or DZ-2500 switch motor installed. Ross has all metal rails and NO plastic area at the frog or on any rails.

I upgraded to Ross Custom switches about 6 months ago and am very happy with their switches.

Lee Fritz

Lee, thanks for the quick reply.  I was thinking along those lines but it seems strange to me that no where do all 3 wheels that can conduct to the outside rail touch plastic or insulated sections at the same time.  

Also, you can't tell by the photo, but I do have power applied to both sides of the switch.  There are power feeds on all legs (I never rely on a switch to carry power) and I make sure wherever I have a power feed there is a jumper between the outside rails on the same section of track.  Or do you mean something else?

Lastly, I chose the Gargraves switches because of their profile.  The Ross switches are considerably longer.  Do you know if they can be cut so that they have the same dimensions?

Tony

Perhaps another solution, if it is only the Thomas engine that is having problems and the rest of your engines make it through fine, would be to replace the trucks of the first car behind Thomas with ones with pick-up rollers and tether that car to the engine.  This would give the small engine a much larger 'electrical footprint' and likely solve the problem.  With a little care it can be done in a failyr unobtrusive way.  

JGL

Clean the wheels and axle contacts. Lube.

Imo you've likely created a dead zone for little engines with the anti derail mod.  Disconnect the turnout and Jump the rails back to normal for a test run to see if it stops. If it does better, move the trigger rail an inch or two away via another cut and jump normal power back to the present trigger rail.

If it doesn't do better you need to change the trains, lol.

Not all trains work with all turnouts. The best fix is spreading the power pickup out further, but Thomas doesn't have a tender to add pickups too. Lighting a coach would serve a dual purpose with a tether for the engine too.

Here's how I make a one-pin tether, use black wire for between cars, less obvious.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Here's how I make a one-pin tether, use black wire for between cars, less obvious.

 

All the Thomas cars have fixed single axle trucks.  Is there a way to add a pickup to cars like these?

There's always a way to add a pickup.   I don't have a Thomas car handy to look at, how about a photo of the bottom of the intended victim?

Tony_V posted:

Lee, thanks for the quick reply.  I was thinking along those lines but it seems strange to me that no where do all 3 wheels that can conduct to the outside rail touch plastic or insulated sections at the same time.  

Also, you can't tell by the photo, but I do have power applied to both sides of the switch.  There are power feeds on all legs (I never rely on a switch to carry power) and I make sure wherever I have a power feed there is a jumper between the outside rails on the same section of track.  Or do you mean something else?

Lastly, I chose the Gargraves switches because of their profile.  The Ross switches are considerably longer.  Do you know if they can be cut so that they have the same dimensions?

Tony

Do you have either a dremel tool with cutting wheel or a hacksaw? You can cut down the Ross switch on the straight or curved side(after the switched point) and make it fit close to a Gargraves switch. I have cut down 2 Ross 042 switches because the straight track was too long.

"Ross" is a better switch because it "has all metal rails" unlike Gargraves. No plastic frog to contend with.

Lee Fritz

Something that I have done with my Williams SD-45 engines, when I run 2 together, because of traction tires and plastic wheels(non powered wheels) on the truck is to add a 2 wire quick disconnect that I bought at a model airplane hobby shop, you can paint the ends of it to hide it some. Also with the Williams SD-45 I have upgraded the truck assemblies to all metal wheels.

Lee Fritz

phillyreading posted:

Tony_V posted:

Lee, thanks for the quick reply.  I was thinking along those lines but it seems strange to me that no where do all 3 wheels that can conduct to the outside rail touch plastic or insulated sections at the same time.  

Also, you can't tell by the photo, but I do have power applied to both sides of the switch.  There are power feeds on all legs (I never rely on a switch to carry power) and I make sure wherever I have a power feed there is a jumper between the outside rails on the same section of track.  Or do you mean something else?

Lastly, I chose the Gargraves switches because of their profile.  The Ross switches are considerably longer.  Do you know if they can be cut so that they have the same dimensions?

Tony

Do you have either a dremel tool with cutting wheel or a hacksaw? You can cut down the Ross switch on the straight or curved side(after the switched point) and make it fit close to a Gargraves switch. I have cut down 2 Ross 042 switches because the straight track was too long.

"Ross" is a better switch because it "has all metal rails" unlike Gargraves. No plastic frog to contend with.

Lee Fritz

I'd say Lee is right, it is loosing common. If this has rubber tires you cannot count on any of those for reliable electrical contact, we've had the same issues with GP9's. Usually the give away is it only does it in one direction since the pickup roller spacing doesn't change.

A fast way to check for a loss of common would be a jumper wire from a car with metal trucks to the loco frame or common wiring.

( Imo, small alligator clips on scrap wire are a "must have" item)

gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's always a way to add a pickup.   I don't have a Thomas car handy to look at, how about a photo of the bottom of the intended victim?

 

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's always a way to add a pickup.   I don't have a Thomas car handy to look at, how about a photo of the bottom of the intended victim?

 

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's always a way to add a pickup.   I don't have a Thomas car handy to look at, how about a photo of the bottom of the intended victim?

 

 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's always a way to add a pickup.   I don't have a Thomas car handy to look at, how about a photo of the bottom of the intended victim?

 

Attached is a photo of a sample victim.

You might shave the suspension and add normal trucks.

A slide-shoe light assembly for Marx 6" lighted coaches mounts in a cars floor. (R. Grossman trains and others) A shoe actually conducts better than a roller in my experience.

Or kludge one. Brass stock or feeler gauges for automotive work well if you have any. They can be soldered together for added length if needed.

You'll need to keep any "arm" from turning left/right. Two screws or a flat to rest a blade edge next too.

Due to overhang type arcs, it will need to be wide if it contacts the track in the center of the car, as a cars center sits to the inside of a center rail in curves.  If you use the Marx part or a copy, it needs to be slightly closer to the wheels, not centered, because your car is longer.  If track contact is close to the wheels, it can be thinner in width; less arc to make up.

This one below is a ball bushing and some other assorted bushings. It has plastic wheels for issolation found on the cheapest of MPC cars. A spring washer/warp washer/euro lock washer, keeps mild side pressure on the contact, a simple loop type crimp terminal. The jewel was just handy to fill the hole; light spilled out it.

Not pretty, but functions great. Shown just to give an idea on how simple it can be. The pickup is a loose-leaf book tack in a plastic bushing. That's a feeler gauge and a brass tube. (The tack has two ends that bend over to hold loose-leaf paper by the holes.)

All,  Sorry I didn't respond earlier.  Work really beat me up yesterday.

There are many good suggestions here and I appreciate all the input.

I am going to start off with the simplest of suggestions, clean and lube.   Sounds fairly rudimentary but these Thomas engines are so reliable, that thought never crossed my mind.  With these little engines going through the switches, there are times where only 1 drive wheel is in contact with a outside rail that is capable of providing connectivity.  If that one wheel is dirty, it would stand to reason that I would have this problem.

I am also going to shorten up the isolated rail for the anti-derailing feature.  As it is built, there is a 6" isolated rail on the straight through and 6.5" on the turnout.  That includes the plastic frog and the isolated rail.  I am going to make a short isolated section, but not right against the frog maybe 1 or 2 ties in length.  When I was building the layout, the isolate rail seemed fairly simple but I am also old school where all locomotive wheels are metal.  It didn't dawn on me until after the build that short engines with tires may have a problem with the long isolated section.

If that doesn't do it, I may try to add a common pickup using ADRIATIC's idea of the looseleaf binder metal and Gunrunnerjohn's 1 pin tether.  Since these are kids toys, this is my least favorit idea but I think I can pull it off without making it perminant.

I also ordered 1 Ross 042 switch to try out.  I like the Ross switches better than the Gargraves and would have used them in the first place if I had known they could be cut.  I use Ross 054/072 switches on the outside loop of this layout and they are more reliable.

As I go through this, I will post the results.

Again, I really appreciate all the suggestions.

Tony

Actually, some of the pickups I've added would work here, and would be pretty easy.  Below is one that is screwed on, the black base is fiberglass.  All you would need to do here is build up a stack of these slices to the correct height to position the roller.  Attaching them is simply CA adhesive, or with a plastic car, you could actually just bolt them through the floor.

If you position the roller near the wheel axle, it'll hit the center rail in all situations.

For a common connection and/or a two wire tether, another blade could also be used off the floor resting on an axle, similar to the axle wipers on trucks. Its presence would add a bit of symmetry with a good shaped bending and connection point.

It would be pretty simple to use one of the axle wipers to connect a couple of wheelsets, but I find that the biggest issue is usually the center roller.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, some of the pickups I've added would work here, and would be pretty easy.  Below is one that is screwed on, the black base is fiberglass.  All you would need to do here is build up a stack of these slices to the correct height to position the roller.  Attaching them is simply CA adhesive, or with a plastic car, you could actually just bolt them through the floor.

If you position the roller near the wheel axle, it'll hit the center rail in all situations.

John, can you tell me where that pickup is from?  I don't recall ever seeing one like that.

For my issue, I really think it is an outside rail connectivity problem.  Regardless, this is good info whether I use it to solve this issue or another in the future.  I also have a few cars that really need some light.

Thanks!

Tony

Tony_V posted:

If that doesn't do it, I may try to add a common pickup using ADRIATIC's idea of the looseleaf binder metal and Gunrunnerjohn's 1 pin tether.  Since these are kids toys, this is my least favorit idea but I think I can pull it off without making it perminant.

I also ordered 1 Ross 042 switch to try out.  I like the Ross switches better than the Gargraves and would have used them in the first place if I had known they could be cut.  I use Ross 054/072 switches on the outside loop of this layout and they are more reliable.

As I go through this, I will post the results.

Again, I really appreciate all the suggestions.

Tony

I would get the Ross switch and be done with the problem!

Another thing is to cut the plastic frog back some on the Gargraves switch and then add a piece track that is a little longer on the corresponding outside rail to help with electrical pick-up.

Lee Fritz

Tony_V posted:

John, can you tell me where that pickup is from?  I don't recall ever seeing one like that.

For my issue, I really think it is an outside rail connectivity problem.  Regardless, this is good info whether I use it to solve this issue or another in the future.  I also have a few cars that really need some light.

Well, it came from my junkbox.  However, it looks to be an MTH BD-0000042 roller, the ones I have in my parts box look just like that picture.  For axle wipers, I use the MTH II-0000006 wiper.

Thanks again John!!!

Tony