SHOULD I HAVE SAID SOMETHING?

When reading these posts, I wounder if my labor rates are two low.  I typically carge 25 labor for a locomotive 15 for a whistling tender and 30 for a dual motor locomotive.  Any parts are extra.  I just did a repair for a new forum member on a 2055 loco & tender, 2023 AA and a 50 gang car, I cut him a break on the labor and it came to about 60 for parts and labor.  I will not interupt another person making a deal, however when done I would of followed the customer outside of the store and given him my information or a better place to take the locomotive to.

Nope, it is none of your business. The owner made an offer based on his idea of what his time was worth.

That is a about right for that store. I know what store it was by your description. They are expensive to have trains fixed for numerous reasons. First they always what they call "general recondition" postwar trains. Meaning they break it down clean it, fix it, then re-build it. Also they have a high overhead, Mountain Lakes is $$$$$$$. They have a large staff. They charge about $30-$40 more but it is done right and guaranteed. So it is a double edge sword! But I will say this, it is done right!

You did the right thing - nothing. Question: How did their retail prices seem to you generally?

Would you take your car to a guy who - just turned on the key...the car doesn't start... and agree to a fee; without a qualified mechanic mechanic looking the vehicle over and then giving an informed(accurate) estimate?

I'd want the shell to come off, and a proper investigation conducted, to find out the source of of the problem. Then, I would take the repair guys estimate, into consideration.

Probably, doing anything else... wouldn't be in the train owners best interest; unless he knows and trusts the guy, who gave the repair price?

Rick

There are several well known people and shops who charge 100.00 just to look at an engine. Parts are extra. When I got back into trains I used a couple of them. I sent a $90.00 2025 engine out and it cost me 140.00 to overhaul. That is why I now do most of my own work. My local guy charges 25.00 an hour and I think that is fair. I too have been in a shop and heard them quote a customer outrageous fees. I wanted to say something too. Another trick some shops use is to just tell post war customers that their train cannot be fixed so you will buy a new one. It happened to me too. 5 minutes after I got home I found the part they said could not be had on Ebay. There are some very good, reasonable guys here on OGR who fix trains. Just let it be known you need help. A fellow forum member came to my rescue years ago. He still does some stuff for me.

Rob

I recently had to have my AC/Heat unit worked on.  While they were under the house, one of the guys came out and told me the kitchen sink drain was broken off and draining under the house.

I could have fixed it myself, but I was sick at the time so I called a plumber who's a friend of mine.  3-1/2 hours later he had it fixed, along with the vent pipe that was rotted out.  Total cost...$379 @ $95/hr labor.  I didn't ask or expect him to "cut a deal" because I know what his time was worth.

If you don't try fixing things yourself be prepared to spend the $$$ for someone else to do it.  What that LHS was asking for is not unreasonable.

A guy I worked with knew I was into trains and asked me to try fixing some old Lionel engines he had.  He brought me a box with about 6 engines inside.

All I did was take the boilers off and clean all the carpet lint and animal hair out of the drive train, oiled them, and replaced a light bulb or 2.  I didn't charge him anything.

If folks would just looked at what they have and try fixing it themselves, not only would they save some $$$ but they would also learn from it, for future use.

I see that all is well in America Today! Some of us want "ever day low prices and high payin' American jobs! I never ceased to be amazed at some folks in this hobby. "Where can I find the cheapest..........who has the best price.................... on and on, then complain........................Hey, I like to save a buck too, but I am realistic enough to know that I sure ain't going to get at cost or less and if I were to, who and where would I go to for service when I needed it?

Some people are only happy when they have something to gripe about.

I had to work with a few of them.

You probably did too.

The transaction was between the store owner & customer! None of your business one way or the other.

Gunny

Doesn't seem too unreasonable to me considering overhead to run a brick and mortar shop. If it were mine I would've taken the shell off and tried to get it running myself, at the very least I'd of cleaned it up, lubed it, and looked for wiring problems.

Both sides of the discussion have validity, but I favor the "it's between the store and the customer".  In my business my best customers are business owners.  They don't think that the light bulb pays its own electric bill.

Alan

quote:

When reading these posts, I wounder if my labor rates are two low.  I typically carge 25 labor for a locomotive 15 for a whistling tender and 30 for a dual motor locomotive. 

Do you have all the overhead that this train store has?

What do you think the person who actually does the work is being paid?

Many people seem think if a repair simply requires a two dollar part the shop should charge them not much more than that. But any shop that doesn’t establish a minimum repair fee will not stay in business very long. I ran tree service years ago. Some folks thought that if I came and pruned a few branches off their little dogwood tree they could get away with paying fifteen bucks or so. Maybe the teenager down the street could do that but I arrived in a $30,000 dump truck, towing a $20,000 chipper, carrying another several thousand dollars worth of saws and miscellaneous equipment. On top of that were employee salaries, insurance, lease for vehicle and storage yard, gas, and numerous other expenses. No matter how short a time I was at the customer’s house, the time to get there and to the next job ate up at least a third of the day. Some people understand these things and others will forever remain clueless and expect something for essentially nothing.

To be sure, a shop can charge whatever they want for repairs. You have a novice, who may (or may not) accept the price. That is private. If someone wants to pay x for repairs, so be it. A more informed customer should not interfere. Let's hope the customer can move up the learning curve and get better results. If so, good for him. If not, he will spend more than he has to.

My solution is to have a trusted repair person and pay them what they charge and give them regular business. Over the years, I have been treated fairly.

But, I would not be the "repair rate police" for an unknown third party.

Mark

no not your place when you have your own shop you can do what you want

quote:

Switching valuable repairable postwar parts with repros as the repair process moves along.....

IMHO that is a very serious allegation.

Hopefully no repairman anywhere is putting in reproduction or modern era parts when the original parts could be fixed at a reasonable cost.

Nope!  As a few others have noted...none of your business.

agree with not saying anything. since the customer did not seem to have a problem with the quote, my guess is if the repair was done well and the loco ran well afterwards, the customer was quite happy with the outcome and in effect, "got his money's worth"

jerrman

I agree with the majority.  Stay out of it.  The only exception I would make is if I absolutely knew the customer was being lied to.

I once was in a well known northeast **** & Sons appliance and electronics store.  The salesman was telling an elderly couple that a flat screen TV was absolutely HD. This was early on when some plasmas had barely more resolution than an SD TV.  The TV was not HD and the price was outrageous.  That's the one and only time I stuck my nose in (after the salesman walked away....I'm not that brave!) and told someone they were being ripped off.

Sometimes, when people hire a a contractor to build something(new home construction) or renovate an existing structure, an agreed upon contract price is reached; but, when the work finally gets underway, new costs, frequently, get added in...

Re: the train not working - how does that guy, from the train shop, know what's needed? The fix might be as simple as a loose wire or maybe, the motor has been damaged beyond repair or it's missing?

What I'm seeing here is, that you felt the customer was being taken, given you level of experience; and, if you truly felt/feel that way, then you should do what you feel is right.

When is it not your business, to help someone out?

I see no harm in lending a hand...

Of course the sharks circling, here, won't see it that way. The shop guy has expenses and a lifestyle to maintain, right?

Rick

Frankly, I think the store owner was completely in the right, and realistic.  Labor, particularly expert labor, is hard to find -- just the other day there was a thread here bemoaning the fact that good service is getting harder to fine. 

As a business owner I feel the store can charge whatever they need to. They need to make a profit. If they are too high they won't be around long unless they have a stellar record. If I can't fix something I would rather have it fixed by the best place I can find. 

On another note you can consider yourself a good person that this bothered you. Right or wrong you wanted to do the right thing for your own reasons....you did make the right choice by stepping aside in this case. IMHO. 

Maybe the customer charges $500 per hour for whatever it is he does for a living and has more money than time to be shopping around trying to save $20, or he likes the store and doesn't care about that price, whatever.  You never know what people's perspective is, it takes all types to make the world go round, so probably best that you didn't intervene, imho.  

I once watched a owner of a small trains store trade a 027 Santa Fe single motor F-3 A-A for a Illinois Central "0" A-B F-3 strait across. The owner brought the set in for repair not to trade and was only about twelve years old. I didn't say anything because I was in his store. He later bragged about the trade. It was the last time I went into his shop. He was out of business by the next year. Don

I would say something in any situation only if it contributes to what all parties want.  For example, the customer wanted the engine repaired, the proprietor wanted $XX for it.  Had I previously paid for service there, I would have maybe told the customer that I was pleased with the outcome - assuming I was.  And if I was not pleased or if my comments would have been detrimental to either side, fermex la bouche (would stay silent). 

I think, as scale rale  has pointed out, if something shady is going on, what goes around comes around. 

Yes, it irritates you to no end, but then you can make a statement by not doing business there.  Persoanlly, I have 3 trains stores near me.  I basically will not go to one of the three unless I have no other option only becasue I have seen how the owner treats customers.  I let my wallet do the talking.

As painful as it may be, you did he right thing.

We've fixed numerous postwar locomotives for people visiting the club, but we do it for the love of the hobby. Doing it as a business is an entirely different thing. The store owner has to be compensated for his time and materials. I think it may of been high by my standards, but that's why you shop around.

There are NO sharks circling!  It's entirely possible that an experienced service person would be able to tell, without even opening the locomotive, what would need to be done to put the engine back into first-rate running and cosmetic condition, and the amount of time it would take.

As a "bystander," you have no business interfering with the conversation between the customer and the dealer/repair person.  You may think you know more than you really do, and you might end up with egg on your face, if not something worse.  Believe it or not, $100 to put an older locomotive back into first-rate condition would, to many, be money well spent.

I would have spoken up if I saw a kid being screwed over like that, no matter what kind of faux pas I may have committed.

Investigative reporters have had a field day, over the years, covering the goings on..., in various segments of the service industry.

I'm guessing guys who are okay with fleecing... don't mind doing a little fleecing, themselves.

BTW, don't people, here, on this forum, often warn other prospective customers off, when they've had negative/bad business dealings, re: model trains. What's the difference, in person(at a store) or here, online?

A good service person would identify the problem, show and explain it to the customer; and then, offer a solution(if there was one available).

Rick

If the customer had wanted a detailed breakdown of what was going to be done, he could have, and probably would have, asked for it.  Easy enough to do, and he obviously was not at all put off by the $100 quote.  Why butt in when it's none of your d#@* business?

Maybe, that's one of the problems with this world; not looking out for the other guy.

Rick

Allan,

The customer might have been ignorant(not meant in a bad way)... didn't know any better. 

The thing is... if he was new, a novice, and sticks around..., then he will realize, what went down that day.

Rick

Ignorant , or not, in any transaction, an offer is made and either accepted or declined.

I hear so called "experts" now and then tell me I paid too much for something.  I always wonder, by who's standards?  

If I want something, and that something is available at a price I don't mind paying, then it's a good transaction all the way around.  I'm happy and the seller is happy.

I've had a dead PW engine restored 20 years ago.   I asked the service shop how much.  He said "xxxx number of dollar".   I said okay.   Could i have nickel and dimed him down?  Maybe.   I was fine with the quote, and in a couple weeks had a nice "new" PW locomotive, without the hassle of driving all over town to find the best deal.

When I'm doing my own work on engines, and thinking what I'd charge for my time if it was in a business setting, I think that price is not that unreasonable.

I spent many years in my own business, and yes my time was expensive.  I never had a customer that didn't think they got their money's worth.

If he doesn't like the price, he has the option of walking out.

The only time I'll ever consider chiming in is when I hear what is clearly grossly false information being presented.  Even then, I usually just make a mental note never to come back to that place and move on.

David,

Informed consent it one thing; being taken advantage of is something else.

My concern here lies with the price being given, without a proper inspection.

If an inspection could not have been conducted, at the time; then, a time should have been booked, when a proper inspection could take place.

BTW, I don't get the feeling, that the original poster feels this way... every time he attends a model train shop. This particular incident bothered him, significantly.

Rick

Usually, i would mind my own business, but have to agree with jumijo. if i saw a 12 year old kid being ripped off, [trains or whatever] i think i would have said "something".   then again, all repairs of any type = overheads ,, must be considered. my elderly neighbor called electrician to replace lamp in high outside security light.  $3.00. bulb  final bill $96.00 Outrageous?  not really, think about it.    then again, my bud drives a 2008 acadia  burnt a headlight out, couldnt figure how to replace it. [$18.00 bulb] went to the dealer cost=  $212.00 .. granted, the fender liner had to be dropped to get the h/lmp out but still, THAT is outrageous.   i guess im just saying its wise to shop around.

You could have said, "Welcome back to the hobby.  You should check-out the O-gauge Forum for all kinds of help."

  --Joe