Simplest solution for running modern electronics with a post-war transformer

A blade fuse holder like this is about as simple as you can get.  

From what I've read here, you will want a TVS (transient voltage suppressor) to protect the electronics in your trains. Not my forte, I will leave it to others to be more specific.

External circuit protection, such as a fuse or circuit breaker is also a good idea.
The drawback on fuses is that they have to be replaced when they blow.
I like Postwar Lionel #91 electromagnetic adjustable, manual reset circuit breakers.
I would not pay more than $15 - $20 for one.

or an in-line holder for these fuses stock up they blow on a any derailment - 6 amp is my recommendation

in-line holder

panel mount holder

Fuse block

You can add fuses & circuit breakers all day long, but they will not protect the electronics. You need simple Transient Voltage Suppression as discussed HERE(with references to part numbers & sources). Placement of bipolar TVS devices is simple & inexpensive, requiring no layout wiring modifications.

I would go with the Locon or a Powermaster, both Lionel products with very fast reaction to a short.

Ray

A fuse keeps you from Arc welding on a derailment.  A TVS protects the modern electronics.  I second Rob's reply.  Get a TVS! A few pennies could save you hundreds.

Rob, 

Does the Lionel ZW-L have internal TVS?

Presumably not. It s a rebuild of a 1952 model. I don't think they wen't mod-con under the hood.

Given that this is a set up that lives on the floor and is occasionally disassembled, a lot of custom wiring is not ideal. Is there an in-line unit that I can install that has a breaker/fuse and TVS? It seems like this should be a product...

graz posted:

Does the Lionel ZW-L have internal TVS?

I have no idea.

Is it accurate to say the the TVS is installed across the hot and ground terminals? I am using the lighted lock-on so it would be installed before that?

I really apologize for the basic q's. There is a lot of very detailed info but not a lot of stuff for a newb w/o an EE background  

Yes, they defy conventional wisdom and are installed across the hot and ground terminals.

From what I recall, the suggestion was to always get the TVS as close to the loco's electronics as possible. Thus, inside of the loco is the best, but not quick or practical for most folks.

The next best place would be across the various lock-ons or power feeds to the tracks.

The next place would be at the Transformer's binding posts.

Bi-directional TVS on Christmas layout power feed.

Pete

According to the ZW-L manual:

Your Lionel ZW-L is equipped with three levels of overload protection: dynamic power limiting, fold- back current limit, and circuit breakers. Each output has its own fold-back current limit and circuit breaker. The dynamic power limiting is applied across all four outputs. This provides multi-layer protection for your trains and transformer while supplying the maximum power possible for pulling lighted cars or fighting over grades with heavy loads.

Dynamic power limiting allows the 620W available from the transformer to be shared across the four outputs as necessary to power the connected loads. Up to 180W is available to each output as long as the total power of all four outputs does not exceed the 620W transformer rating. When the 620W total is reached the output that tried to take more power will be limited to maintain the 620W total. The red light on the transformer will flash while the output is being limited. The transformer can run in this mode indefinitely and will not shut down. When more power becomes available because of a change in the demand from the other outputs it will be automatically given to the limited output.

The fold-back current limit protects your transformer and layout from damage caused by severe overloads and short circuits in the case of derailments or objects falling on the track. At the same time it prevents the inconvenience of nuisance tripping caused by momentary overloads. It continuously monitors the output current of all four outputs. When there is a short on any of the outputs it will reduce the voltage on that output in a fraction of a second to hold the current at 10A. If the short circuit is not corrected in 3 seconds the transformer will interrupt power to that output. All other outputs will be unaffected. During the 3 seconds the red light on the ZW-L will flash. Once the output is shut down the red light will come on solid. To indicate which output(s) are experiencing the problem, the back light of the meter assigned to that out - put will be turned off.

For Conventional operation, move the throttle for that output to the Off position to reset the Transformer and resume normal operation. For Command operation press RESET or enter AUX1, 0 on the CAB-2/CAB-1 for that output. The circuit breakers on the ZW-L Transformer are designed as a fail-safe for the electronic over-current protection. Because most problems will be protected by and corrected during fold-back mode operation (described in the previous section), circuit breakers should be tripped infrequently. In the event that a breaker is tripped, the backlight on the meter assigned to that output will be turned off. Refer to Figure 1 for the meters assigned to each output. Correct the short circuit (e.g., make sure that the train's wheels are properly on the track and remove any foreign objects from the rails), return the handle(s) to the Off position, and then press the circuit breaker buttons shown in Figure 3 on page 9 to reset power.

ADCX Rob posted:

You can add fuses & circuit breakers all day long, but they will not protect the electronics. You need simple Transient Voltage Suppression as discussed HERE(with references to part numbers & sources). Placement of bipolar TVS devices is simple & inexpensive, requiring no layout wiring modifications.

I would add circuit breakers to a post war transformer and a TVS unit rated at 32 volts bi-directional. I got my breakers and TVS from Mouser electronics. The breakers should be around 7 or 8 amps at 120 volts AC and quick acting.

I don't like fuses because they need to be replaced every time one blows. With a circuit breaker you can just reset it and go.

Lee Fritz

Although the new ZW-L may have the better circuit protection the person who posted this was asking about a post war KW and not the brand new ZW-L. Also the new ZW-L might be out of price range for most people just getting into the hobby.

Lee Fritz

Lee,

I asked about the ZW-L just out of curiosity and no, I wasn't suggesting that as a viable alternative for the original poster to go, nor was I trying to hijack his thread.

Mike

K-Line had surge surpressing lockons at one time, I bought a couple and I figure they either work or I've been really lucky.

Texas Pete posted:

Bi-directional TVS on Christmas layout power feed.

Pete

So...transformer to that block with the TVS and an inline fuse somewhere along the way on the hot wire?

What is the white egg-crate stuff called?

Le TGV posted:

Texas Pete posted:

Bi-directional TVS on Christmas layout power feed.

Pete

So...transformer to that block with the TVS and an inline fuse somewhere along the way on the hot wire?

What is the white egg-crate stuff called?

Terminal strip or terminal block.

Le TGV posted:

Presumably not. It s a rebuild of a 1952 model. I don't think they wen't mod-con under the hood.

Given that this is a set up that lives on the floor and is occasionally disassembled, a lot of custom wiring is not ideal. Is there an in-line unit that I can install that has a breaker/fuse and TVS? It seems like this should be a product...

The ZW-L is not a rebuild of a ZW. It's a whole new modern transformer that takes its style and control cues from the postwar version, but nothing else.

If you are using tubular track, and have a hefty enough soldering iron, solder the TVS right to the underside of the track.

Just clean the area of the track so you don't spend a lot of time futzing with the soldering.

I'm relatively new to this whole AC train running thing. Forgive my electronic ignorance, but does a TVS (first time I've heard of them) also work for modern transformers running old tinplate, and/or is one needed?

Firewood posted:

I'm relatively new to this whole AC train running thing. Forgive my electronic ignorance, but does a TVS (first time I've heard of them) also work for modern transformers running old tinplate, and/or is one needed?

 

TVS is to protect the electronics of modern locomotives, which are highly sensitive to electrical mayhem that postwar transformers could generate. Postwar locomotives don't have those electronics.

I've been running legacy with a KW for 5 years.  I have an inline 5 amp auto fuse.  Works like a charm.  

DLC posted:

I've been running legacy with a KW for 5 years.  I have an inline 5 amp auto fuse.  Works like a charm.  

 What are you using for Transient Voltage Suppression? The fuse doesn't provide any protection, and the damage is cumulative.

Firewood posted:

I'm relatively new to this whole AC train running thing. Forgive my electronic ignorance, but does a TVS (first time I've heard of them) also work for modern transformers running old tinplate, and/or is one needed?

 

Most modern (made within the last 4 or 5 years)transformers should have some kind of TVS unit in them. Running old tinplate(or any engine before 1970) with a new transformer you would not need a TVS unit because there are no modern electronics to go bad, you might have a whistle issue if the engine has a post war whistle in it as I am having an issue with a post war American Flyer engine(# 295) with newer transformers being the tender makes a loud buzzing sound when used with an MTH Z-1000.

Lee Fritz

I asked this very same question a few years ago. I'm using Powermasters so I can control track voltage from my CAB-1, but that's not sufficient according to what I've read.  TVS's from Mouser are dirt cheap relative to the cost of the electronics-laden engines and provide the protection and peace of mind I want.

phillyreading posted:

Firewood posted:

I'm relatively new to this whole AC train running thing. Forgive my electronic ignorance, but does a TVS (first time I've heard of them) also work for modern transformers running old tinplate, and/or is one needed?

 

Most modern (made within the last 4 or 5 years)transformers should have some kind of TVS unit in them. Running old tinplate(or any engine before 1970) with a new transformer you would not need a TVS unit because there are no modern electronics to go bad, you might have a whistle issue if the engine has a post war whistle in it as I am having an issue with a post war American Flyer engine(# 295) with newer transformers being the tender makes a loud buzzing sound when used with an MTH Z-1000.

Lee Fritz

Thanks PhillyReading & Jim R. I was wondering if sparky old locomotives would fry anything in a modern transformer; thanks for the knowledge.

For overload and short circuit protection PTCs are very inexpensive and auto reset when fault is corrected and power is reset.  The PTCs allow you to protect circuits at the lowest practical amps.

For children, a panel mount resettable circuit breaker may be better because the trip indicator is visible.

See Circuit Protection for Toy Trains for more information,

Susan Deats posted:

For overload and short circuit protection PTCs are very inexpensive and auto reset when fault is corrected and power is reset.  The PTCs allow you to protect circuits at the lowest practical amps.

For children, a panel mount resettable circuit breaker may be better because the trip indicator is visible.

See Circuit Protection for Toy Trains for more information,

While the PTC's may protect from an over current(amps) type of thing they may not protect 100% from over voltages(temporary voltage spikes), that's why the TVS unit is most important and only costs around $3.00 each unless you buy in quantities of 12 or more then you might pay around $2.80 a piece. You might find some for sale for less then what I quoted as there are several companies who TVS units and prices can vary.

Lee Fritz

There is a recent Backshop video on demand that covers  making a circuit breaker for this issue. It will accomodate a ZW. I plan on putting it together ASAP.

The Backshop Video on Demand that OTPETE refers to is right here. For 99 cents, Jim will show you how to build a 4-circuit breaker box that comes in mighty handy for just this purpose.

Add a TVS into each circuit and you are virtually bulletproof!

Gentlemen,

    Although not the least expensive, a great viable option is to add DCS to the your layout, this gives you the TVS in the TIU, then put 10 Amp Breakers between the KW Transformer and the TIU, this gives you complete coverage, then purchase a P2 or P3 Engine of your choosing, add Legacy a little later, and then invest in a Legacy engine.  Do this a little at a time, and you have upgraded your layout with a modern DCS controlled Engine, and can run your older Conventionals, with the DCS Hand Held Remote Control also.

IMO this is the way to upgrade your entire layout.

PCRR/Dave

 Conventional K-Line CoCa-Cola Train and MTH P2  GG1 Military consist, running side by side, both controlled by the DCS, (HHRC) Hand Held Remote Control.  With a Tin Plate P2 263 Work Train on the 1st level, controlled in the exact same way.  What a blast. 

Does TMCC / PowerHouse / PowerMaster have TVS protection, or does it predate common TVS use?

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 Breakers protect the transformer. TVS protect the train.

Like Charlie but without the pain of replacing fusses. Breakers and TVSs on the ZW

I also use TVSs at the lockons

I do not think these have the TV's but, they do have very fast acting breakers

Ray

Dallee now offers a circuit breaker/spike protector in 3 amp through 12 amp for $24.95. 

No question fast acting circuit protection in concert with TVS diodes is the complete answer.

MichRR714 posted:

No question fast acting circuit protection in concert with TVS diodes is the complete answer.

Definitely.  The PTCs and TVS diodes can be used together for maximum protection from faults and tansient voltages.