Sine wave converters?

The entire system is built around a 60Hz power supply.  Changing this will cause trouble, not enhancement.  European operators do all they can to get 60Hz converters for their 50Hz AC mains to run the trains.

Sorry Rob, my description muddied the question I was asking.

I am not wanting to alter the cycles or frequency of the track power, (50/60/75hz) but simply to convert that power from the old-fashioned smooth sine wave to the chopped wave signal that allows the newer electronics to function so much better.

 

I am still leaning towards the MTH Z4000 versus the big Lionel ZL.

The superior operational response at lower speeds and input of Lionel is attributable to the chopped sine wave output of the unit.  Since output starts off at its peak setting and goes down from there, or maintains as usage dictates, all of the effects of the locomotives and accessories start at peak effect efficiency and maintain those peak effects better, especially at lower power outputs.

 

To equalize the playing field, a sine wave converter should be able to be connected in-line to the MTH transformer to convert their smooth sine wave (same as X-formers back to the late 1940s) to the chopped wave form output (new wave form for electronics) of the Lionel and add the cherry to the MTH set-up.

 

I was just wondering if anyone had installed one of the wave converters on either an older transformer or on a Z4000 yet, and how were the results?  Or if someone had experience with a number of these units, which one did they think performed better.

 

 

OK, if you are talking about the enhanced smoke output or the starting torque in conventional mode, I have done this with old ZWs & KWs.

 

Is this what you are talking about?  Otherwise, your information may be wrong, as there is no advantage in a Command environment. 

I think we beat this same topic to death in another thread!  I can't imagine improving the low speed performance of my Legacy locomotives in command mode (which is all I ever run them in) with a chopped waveform.  I think you're chasing rainbows here.

Yes, that is what I was asking about.  If the MTH Z4000 uses the same wave as the older transformers, would it be beneficial to add a sine wave converter to the unit to get the chopped wave form?

There have been many good reports for the new Lionel ZW-L.  I believe it also has the chopped sine wave you are looking for?  Why not just get it instead of the Z4000? 

About twice the price?

 

Well, if you are married to a pure sine wave transformer as a base power supply, there are many ways to add a sine wave converter for either remote or fixed base operation.

 

For remote use, you can run TMCC conventional with TPCs(requires a Command Base) or PM-1 PowerMasters(no Command Base necessary).  These will have a chopped wave form output.

 

For fixed base operation, you can use a 12938 PowerStation controller(7 amps):

 

 

Or a GW-180 Controller(10 amps):

 

both also with have a chopped wave form output.

The results you are looking for, though, may vary...  from non-existent, to more smoke output at lower speeds from starter set steamers(Penn Flyer, Polar Express, etc.), & slightly more starting torque at low settings.  Maybe.

Well, there is that to consider!

Thanks.  I reason for the question was the Lionel video on the transformer itself.

The demonstration between the standard sine wave of the older Xformers and the Z4000 (same sine wave) showed a marked difference in performance of the "bells & whistles" no pun intended, between the two classes of wave output, especially at lower levels.

 

The set-up of the MTH along with its price begged the question for me.

 

My SCADA technicians have had chopped wave form discussion in the past as far as substation controls ad remote actuators were concerned, the correlation to the MRR electronics seemed likely.  So I thought I would ask if anyone had experience with this conversion.  My Ironworkers and Millwrights mostly talk about beer and girls, so not much to spur conversation there ( about trains anyway).

That was comparing a 1033(6-16 volts) to a CW-80(17.9 volts).  The video is a little misleading.  When both transformers are set at 10 volt operating voltage using a meter, the CW is putting out close to 17 on a scope.  This would produce the result(s) you are looking for.

Thank you.

That is good to know.

db

The chopped sine wave is much ado about nothing IMO. As Rob stated,the video was very misleading to be kind. The only real benefit is if it powers a circuit in some locos that have capacitance. Few locos have this. The downside is some older locos,such as PS1 do not run well on chopped waves. 

 

I forgot my K-Line power chief put out a chopped wave and ran a PS1 trolley with it to test the track. In a few hours something cooked in the board and it would not even run with any transformer. I had to gut it and convert it to forward only.

 

I wish train manufactures would make things with common standards.The chopped sine wave is a nice electrical design trick but who needs it and all the complications it causes? My new layout,I am sticking to PW types for power,ZW and LWs. Had bad luck with the modern ZW, 2 bricks developed bad breakers and Lionel had no replacements. The controller was also out of wack,and I do not think Lionel still has replacement parts.

 

Dale H

 

 

Pure sine wave or chopped wave doesn't mean anything when trying to select a new transformer.
What matters most is:
1. Do you want to run conventional or command control?
2. How much power do you need? (How many trains do you want run at one time)

Flash has a point.

If running Command Control Chopped wave is useless as you are running max power all the time anyway.

Conventional can smoke better and have a bit more torque at low speeds with chopped wave.

Note that the MTH Z-controllers give you this for low cost as does the CW-80.

 

Dale has another point, Some PS-1 engines will not run on chopped wave power at all.

Not sure if the burnout was caused by that or just bad luck.

ZW-L vs. Z-4000 - twice the price? Very true, John - but don't forget that one ZW-L's four output channels can delivery almost twice as much power as one Z-4000's two outputs channels.

 

I ran my layout with two Z-4000's for over a year, and then bought a ZW-L. Now the two venerable Z-4000's supply power to one TIU, and the ZW-L to the other TIU.

 

The Z-4000s' voltages will vary according to load, so I set them at 20v-21v when the draw is under 1 amp. This way, when the draw increases to 4 amps or so, the voltage will not dip under 17v-18v.

 

I set the ZW-L to the max (easily accomplished for all four outputs with just one handle) which is about 18.8v, and it closely remains at this setting regardless of the load. At least this has been my experience. 

 

George Brown has written three excellent articles in OGR magazine on this topic.

 

Good luck!

 

Alex

I prefer the PowerHouse 180 bricks for feeding my TIU.  Simple, great circuit breaker, and I can put them out of sight if I like as they need no direct access.

 

John,

 

Are you still able to ramp up the voltage to the TIU's when turning the system on?

 

Thx

 

Alex

Alex, why do I want to ramp up the voltage to the TIU?

 

John,

 

I believe raising the voltage from 0 to operating level is required for the DCS 'watchdog signal' to be recognized by the engines. I guess if you run just conventional then this ramp up is not needed? (I run just DCS and Legacy/TMCC)

 

Alex

Nope, that's not at all necessary.  I've never ramped the voltage to the tracks, and it's never been an issue.  I don't run conventional, except for testing repairs, strictly Legacy and DCS.  The TIU gets powered up with the 180 brick on Fixed #1, and has never failed to function with DCS.  My variable channels are set to fixed as well, and for testing conventional, I just hit the TVZ soft-key and then flip on the track feed.

 

John,

 

I now realize that my error was in believing that the watchdog signal would be lost if the voltage to the TIU were not ramped up, where the issue that I have had is turning on a track (under independent relay control for power) after the TIU was already powered.

 

Now I understand that the watchdog signal is issued by the TIU whenever it is turned from off to on. Off course, if the track where the DCS engine is parked is off, then the engine misses the watchdog signal and starts in conventional mode; correct?

 

There was something written regarding how fast the voltage is turned from off to on, which I believe I read in a thread in the DCS forum, but don't remember the details.

 

Thx!

 

Alex

 

 

You got it Alex.  The WD signal only comes out for a few seconds when the input power to the TIU channel is applied.  After that, if you simply switch on a siding that uses that already powered TIU channel, it'll come up in conventional mode.  If it's in the remote, all you have to do is to tell it to shutdown, and I seem to remember you can just start operating it as well.

 

Well, after a test, the best thing to do is to punch the shutdown key or startup key and then start.  My SW1500 came up with sounds and lights on.  The odd thing was that I would trigger the couplers, blow the horn, etc., but before a startup or shutdown, I couldn't move it.  Either a startup or shutdown got it into full command mode and away I went.