Soldering Advice Desperately Needed . . . . I have no soldering gene

Atlas rails are hard to solder. I drill a hole sideways through the rail, put the wire in the hole and then solder the hole shut. That seems to hold pretty well, then you can paint over the power drop in whatever color the rails are. 

Another way to do it is to solder wire to the joiners. 

Not surprising. You have to start out with a really hot tip that has a lot of thermal mass (big tip) and get on, flow solder, get off quick. A good liquid flux is generally better than the rosin pastes. In spite of what you are told, a liquid flux with a very small amount of acidity is generally best at cleaning the surface and not allowing the part to oxidize while you are trying to flow solder. Acid flux like for copper water pipes is definitely not allowed, but some liquid fluxes formulated for electrical work do have a slight acidity and work best. I've never had an issue after decades using this method. I can't tell you where to buy what I use (it's called Sal-Met from Henry Manufacturing in Danville IL and seems to be unavailable any more). I bought a pint of it at a hamfest 30 years ago and it seems to be a lifetime supply. 

If the center rail is blackened you want to remove it first. A dremel with steel wire brush should do it, otherwise you will have use an abrasive disk. If you still have trouble you will have use an active flux rather than a rosin flux. I use Stay Clean zinc chloride flux. You will have to flush it with water afterwords.

Tin the track first, clean it off, then put the piece in place and solder the wire to it.

Pete

Come on Man!

I just soldered Scaletrax and that didn't melt much.

Do as Norton says or watch Rich Battista's video again!

Joe,

I cleaned off the blackened rail with an abrasive disk and used paste flux. I guess the tip on my Weller needs cleaning or I didn't hold it long enough. Gee whiz, this is hard.

The soldering iron shown in the picture looks to be in the 40 watt to 60 watt range.  Unless you have a Metcal soldering station, that low wattage probably wont get the job done.  Basically the metal of the rails are draining the heat out of your soldering iron which drops the overall temp and causes the problem you are seeing.  If you have a standard old school Weller iron

or something similar, you should have plenty of heat/wattage to prevent the track from draining the heat out of your small iron.  Make sure the nuts that connect the copper solder tip on the Weller are tight and that the solder tip contact surface is clean, shiny and readily takes solder.  Another advantage is to use tin/lead solder which melts at a much lower temp (183 C) versus SAC305 which melts at (217-220C). 

Another aid is to heat your home oven up to a very low temp in the 100 - 150 degree F range and put your switch into the oven to preheat it.  Use gloves to take it out and solder the wires as quickly as you can on your bench.  You probably should test a junk piece of track in the oven to make sure there are no low temp plastics that will deform or melt on the switch.  At the time of soldering, any increase in temperature in the switch temperature above room temp is an advantage in your favor.  Some equivalent joules of energy/heat/wattage have already been placed into the metal rails courtesy of your oven.  In Texas we could just put out on the patio for a few minutes and the do the soldering there without the oven.

I prefer the no clean flux found in most soldering wire.  Again test everything on a junk or low cost piece of track before working on the Atlas switch, which I assume is more expensive than a Lionel 022 switch.  If Atlas did a poor job of tin plating the rails of the switch or put on very thin layer of tin, then you will have an additional obstacle.  Tin is very expensive compared to steel and steel does not solder nearly as well as tin plate or clean copper.

All I use is an old nocorode can of paste that was my father's . 

I always clean the tip and tin it. Some times I file it to keep its shape . 

The way yours looked  I thought you skipped the paste.

Tinning the rails saves from overheating trying to do it all at once.

Just me but, I do NOT care for those "modern" trigger-pull soldering guns. I have always used an American Beauty actual soldering iron. Works every time.

If you are using flux, why are you heating the rail?  Flux works to draw the liquefied solder to it. As an aside, it's the coolest thing when soldering copper pipe to watch solder run against gravity.  Anyway, clean and flux where you want to solder.  Dip your exposed wire into your flux. Place the wire at the spot of the union.  Hold the iron at the union point in order to liquefy your solder and touch your solder to your iron. The solder will melt, run to the flux and harden instantly.  Move on to your next piece.

One other thing Eliot, look for a bigger tip for your iron and hold it sideways on the rail. The pointed tip is transferring very little heat the way you are showing it.

Its less about the iron wattage and more about the thermal mass. 35-40 watts is enough but you need more copper to transfer the heat to the rail.

I solder track with a 35 watt Ungar iron, the same type some of you may have used in a wood burning set. KISS

Pete

What ever you do don't go over 800 deg, that releases lead into the air.

Norton posted:

One other thing Eliot, look for a bigger tip for your iron and hold it sideways on the rail. The pointed tip is transferring very little heat the way you are showing it.

Its less about the iron wattage and more about the thermal mass. 35-40 watts is enough but you need more copper to transfer the heat to the rail.

I solder track with a 35 watt Ungar iron, the same type some of you may have used in a wood burning set. KISS

Pete

I use a $5, 30 watt iron from Menards.  I spend way more money on flux and solder than the iron!

http://www.menards.com/main/to...-2817066436603495959

Basil posted:

If you are using flux, why are you heating the rail?  Flux works to draw the liquefied solder to it. As an aside, it's the coolest thing when soldering copper pipe to watch solder run against gravity.  Anyway, clean and flux where you want to solder.  Dip your exposed wire into your flux. Place the wire at the spot of the union.  Hold the iron at the union point in order to liquefy your solder and touch your solder to your iron. The solder will melt, run to the flux and harden instantly.  Move on to your next piece.

 

Actually the primary purpose of flux is to help clean the oxides off of the solderable surface(s) and help prevent oxides from forming.  The reason solder flows to the solderable surface is due to capillary action of the surface tension of solder.  Put solder on an unclean/dirty surface and watch it form into a ball that you can flick off with your finger.  Commercially, you would want to do all of this in a positive flow nitrogen atmosphere blanket to eliminate the oxygen from the equation. 

Dear Scrapiron,

Step back for a moment before you melt your switches.  Why not start out and test your skills on something inexpensive.  Rather than solder to the switch I soldered ten inches of combination red and black lead wire to two atlas track connectors (red to black and black to ground).  I then place those connectors on the sides that need juice.  It is not as elegant, but it works.   It gave me confidence, as the connectors are very forgiving, to start soldering other wires and eventually I will go back and do the close up work.  However, the trains don't seem to know the difference.

Basil posted:

If you are using flux, why are you heating the rail?  Flux works to draw the liquefied solder to it. As an aside, it's the coolest thing when soldering copper pipe to watch solder run against gravity.  Anyway, clean and flux where you want to solder.  Dip your exposed wire into your flux. Place the wire at the spot of the union.  Hold the iron at the union point in order to liquefy your solder and touch your solder to your iron. The solder will melt, run to the flux and harden instantly.  Move on to your next piece.

 

Basil,  Do you tin your solder gun tip with this method?  Do you tin either the wire or rail first?

NH Joe

I was not asked, but I would tin the wire and the rail both before joining them. And I find that with some plated surfaces, it helps to scrape the metal surface lightly with the hot iron tip while heating it. It cleans off the oxide and allows the tinning of the surface.

Our "expert" track crews on the G&O garden railroad were having a terrible time soldering wire to Atlas  O gauge track.  A G gauge track fellow saw our problem and suggested a quick and easy fix.  This fix is only cost effective if you have a large numbers of leads to solder.

1.  Buy a resistance soldering iron.  The G&O purchased a resistance solder unit from Micromart.

2.  Grind the side of the rail clean using a dremel tool.  The Dremel 971 grinder attachment works best for Atlas track.

3.  You do not need to use flux or tin the wire.

4.  Hold the wire to the rail with one side of the resistance soldering iron jaws and close the jaw on the opposite side of the rail.  The rail and wire heats instantly at only that point.

5.  Apply solder and let it flow onto the wire and rail.  Release one half of the resistance jaws while holding the wire to the rail with other jaw.  The solder cools immediately.  Remove the jaw and go to the next joint.

This takes longer to write than to do.

The G&O crew uses this method for all of our wiring connections to the track. The wire is not noticeable once it is weathered.  The track weathers naturally outdoors but you can paint the sides of the track for indoor work.

G&O track joint connections.  There are 4 solder points in this photo.

It took me a while to figure out that the set screw in the iron has to be tight to get max heat.  I always heat the track first, then tin it leaving a pretty good glob of solder there.  Then coming back the rail is still hot and it gets back up to temp in a hurry while holding the tinned wire against the rail.  Practice on plain track first.  Good luck. 

New Haven Joe posted:

Basil posted:

If you are using flux, why are you heating the rail?  Flux works to draw the liquefied solder to it. As an aside, it's the coolest thing when soldering copper pipe to watch solder run against gravity.  Anyway, clean and flux where you want to solder.  Dip your exposed wire into your flux. Place the wire at the spot of the union.  Hold the iron at the union point in order to liquefy your solder and touch your solder to your iron. The solder will melt, run to the flux and harden instantly.  Move on to your next piece.

 

Basil,  Do you tin your solder gun tip with this method?  Do you tin either the wire or rail first?

NH Joe

 

No and no.  I've tinned wire in the past when going wire to wire, but when soldering rail I use my method as stated.

"Just me but, I do NOT care for those "modern" trigger-pull soldering guns. I have always used an American Beauty actual soldering iron. Works every time." Hot Water

That is exactly what I would like to do. My finger is aching after holding it for several minutes and the soldering gun starts to quiver. On my Weller it says 140/100 watts. Perhaps my tip is not good and needs to be replaced. I did have some success soldering 14 gauge stranded wire to several rail joiners but I really don't like that. I am using one of those "third hands" with clips to hold the rail joiner and it is not secure at all. I find it extremely difficult to get the stranded wire to lay flat on the bottom of the rail joiner once I have tinned the wire. 

For some reason, I have successfully soldered the 14 gauge stranded wire to the side of the Atlas O rail. It seems easier than soldering to the bottom of the rail even though I carefully cleaned the rail with the abrasive tool on the Dremel. 

Honestly, with all of the advice here, I am embarrassed to say I just try to find one of those soldering irons that Hot Water mentioned. That new soldering set I bought and is pictured has a very fine tip and I could hold it against the rail until I am 70 and nothing happens. 

The downside to all of this is that I don't feel at this point I can put jumpers on the switches as Barry has suggested. I am just not good enough soldering. I am hopeful that the new Atlas O switches have a more robust wire jumping the center rails and I won't toast it with too much current.

Between not having a good tip and not having the proper/good tools for holding the wire to the rail while I solder, I am very discouraged that I will not be able to wire the switches for DCS the best way. I remain somewhat hopeful that if the switches don't fry, I can still have a good DSC signal. 

In any case, so many thanks once again for the outpouring of help. I think the bottom line is some folks are good and some things and soldering is just not for me.

Eliot

aussteve posted:

Basil posted:

If you are using flux, why are you heating the rail?  Flux works to draw the liquefied solder to it. As an aside, it's the coolest thing when soldering copper pipe to watch solder run against gravity.  Anyway, clean and flux where you want to solder.  Dip your exposed wire into your flux. Place the wire at the spot of the union.  Hold the iron at the union point in order to liquefy your solder and touch your solder to your iron. The solder will melt, run to the flux and harden instantly.  Move on to your next piece.

 

Actually the primary purpose of flux is to help clean the oxides off of the solderable surface(s) and help prevent oxides from forming.  The reason solder flows to the solderable surface is due to capillary action of the surface tension of solder.  Put solder on an unclean/dirty surface and watch it form into a ball that you can flick off with your finger.  Commercially, you would want to do all of this in a positive flow nitrogen atmosphere blanket to eliminate the oxygen from the equation. 

I'm very impressed with your technical expertise.  I like the way heated flux smells.

Flux is your best friend.

Scrapiron Scher posted:

"Just me but, I do NOT care for those "modern" trigger-pull soldering guns. I have always used an American Beauty actual soldering iron. Works every time." Hot Water

That is exactly what I would like to do. My finger is aching after holding it for several minutes and the soldering gun starts to quiver. On my Weller it says 140/100 watts. The gun is a dual heat gun with two trigger positions, the trigger switch may not be working properly. You also need to confirm, which position is the 140 watt/most heat.   I have a very old gun, Weller D550 240watt/325watt.  A good bit more heat, but also a good bit more melting of the rail plastic if not careful. The idea is to heat the rail spot and wire quickly before the heat transfers through the whole assembly.   Perhaps my tip is not good and needs to be replaced. Sometimes the nuts, where the tip attachés to the gun loosens.  Even if it seems tight, try to tighten it.  I did have some success soldering 14 gauge stranded wire to several rail joiners but I really don't like that. I am using one of those "third hands" with clips to hold the rail joiner and it is not secure at all. I find it extremely difficult to get the stranded wire to lay flat on the bottom of the rail joiner once I have tinned the wire. 

For some reason, I have successfully soldered the 14 gauge stranded wire to the side of the Atlas O rail.

(1.)  I found it best to remove the blacken coating with a small hand tool/scrapper/file.  Grinding the black with a dremel tool tends to remove the very small tin coating that is under the black, making it more difficult to solder.

(2.) The Dremel also adds material to the rail that tends to make it  more difficult to solder.

(3.) You may find it an advantage to tin the side of the rail, first, before attempting to solder the wire to the rail.  Same applies to the copper wire.  At that point you are soldering an already tined rail to a tined wire.  

(4.) Rosin core solder  SN60PB40, 60% tin/40% lead. .050" diameter, the solder I use. There are other solders available.

(5.) Call

(6.) The sun will come up tomorrow

 It seems easier than soldering to the bottom of the rail even though I carefully cleaned the rail with the abrasive tool on the Dremel. 

Honestly, with all of the advice here, I am embarrassed to say I just try to find one of those soldering irons that Hot Water mentioned. That new soldering set I bought and is pictured has a very fine tip and I could hold it against the rail until I am 70 and nothing happens. 

The downside to all of this is that I don't feel at this point I can put jumpers on the switches as Barry has suggested. I am just not good enough soldering. I am hopeful that the new Atlas O switches have a more robust wire jumping the center rails and I won't toast it with too much current.

Between not having a good tip and not having the proper/good tools for holding the wire to the rail while I solder, I am very discouraged that I will not be able to wire the switches for DCS the best way. I remain somewhat hopeful that if the switches don't fry, I can still have a good DSC signal. 

In any case, so many thanks once again for the outpouring of help. I think the bottom line is some folks are good and some things and soldering is just not for me.

Eliot 

Best wishes Mike CT  

This will be kind of long but maybe it will help someone:

 Most soldering problems are from not knowing the tools and how to prepare them.

 First and most important is all soldering iron tips must be conditioned to work well. A new tip is not conditioned. HERE is a link to a youtube video on one method to do this. Use this quick test to know if a tip is ready for use. Turn on your iron hold it with the tip facing down and flow some solder onto the tip. If the solder runs to the end of the tip and hangs there like a BB then the tip is not conditioned for use. A conditioned tip will have the solder flowing up and around the tip not running to the end. Well that is as long as you don’t get carried away with the amount applied gravity will take over with too much.

Second the sponge that came with your iron is not so you can clean up for lunch. The wet sponge is for cleaning the tip by shocking the hot tip so contaminates will wipe off. Use it often. Also NEVER use a file or sandpaper on the tip most soldering iron tips are made of steel with a coating applied. Once that coating is gone so is the tip through it out.

 Third is using the correct tip for the job. HERE is a link to an article on soldering iron tips and what they are used for. The link allows you to download the information in PDF for your files.

 Last is the solder to use. That is similar to asking what brand oil for your car. I use .032 60/40 rosin core. The smaller diameter melts faster and at a lower temperature.

These are just some of the basics hope they help.  

hi one trick I learned 35 years ago is use scotch bright pad and clean area to be soldiered thoroughly if it wont clean up sometimes a sharp edge of a knife blade helps too. also while your heating your track especially it helps to rub the hot soldering tip back and fourth possibly adding flux if needed and then solder . as someone pointed out earlier . it is very important to clean the soldering tip of the iron or you wont ever be able to solder anything at all !!!!!! a black burnt tip on an iron wont ever melt solder !!!!!!!!!!!

good luck

Alan

1. FLUX
2. FLUX
3. FLUX

Track power connections for Atlas Track - SCREW IT

These are the tools used by a fellow who scratch builds brass engines. He has been doing it for over 50 years and only last year tried using resistance soldering. Note the small heater but large copper tip which provides the thermal mass.

BTW no need to worry if you remove the tin plating. Zinc Chloride flux will allow soldering to steels as easy as copper or tin. Even exotic stainless alloys like Monel can be soldered using the product below.

Example of his work.

Pete

Too small a soldering iron can cause surrounding plastic to melt.  A hotter iron heats the site of the work faster, as heat doesn't have time to be conducted away.  I always use a Weller 100/130-watt gun.  Some of these tend to require frequent cleaning of the set screws holding the tip.

superwarp1 posted:

What ever you do don't go over 800 deg, that releases lead into the air.

But that puts lead in your pencil.....LOL

When using rosin core solder, is flux required ?

Dan Padova posted:

When using rosin core solder, is flux required ?

On nickel silver track, you need something more. Grinding the coating off or a proper combination of flux, solder, temperature and cleaner.

I HAVE been reading each post very carefully. My apologies to anyone whom I have not thanked personally by name in my posts here. Please know I have read yours and I truly appreciate all the suggestions. I am dedicating myself to building the best possible railroad I can. I want the trains to run flawlessly and I will leave no  tone unturned in becoming better at this. I hate it, but I can get better. So many thanks to all of you for putting up with my moaning and b*******.

I feel like I am learning enough now to continue to try. Apparently, I didn't even know all of the things I have been doing wrong. I wish there was a good soldering class nearby.

1) "The trigger switch may not be working properly. You also need to confirm, which position is the 140 watt/most heat" . . . . . MikeCT   I have no idea if it is working properly. 

2) "If the solder runs to the end of the tip and hangs there like a BB then the tip is not conditioned for use." .....NelsonNW     Exactly what my solder did

3) "Also NEVER use a file or sandpaper on the tip most soldering iron tips are made of steel with a coating applied. Once that coating is gone so is the tip through it out." NelsonNW    Sigh, exactly what I did. 

4) "it is very important to clean the soldering tip of the iron or you wont ever be ale to solder anything at all !!!!!! a black burnt tip on an iron wont ever melt solder." Repair Technician      Sigh, my tip is burnt and black. 

5) "SCREW IT" . . . . Moonman      

6) "Zinc Chloride flux" . . . . . Norton    I will look into this. Thanks. 

7) "One other thing Eliot, look for a bigger tip for your iron and hold it sideways on the rail." Norton      Will do. Thanks. 

I did buy a new soldering iron on Amazon last night. The tip on my Weller is black, burnt, and filed away. I will can it. Home Despot does not carry replacement tips.

Work voltage: 110V
Power: 60W
Temp range: 200~450℃
Tips model: 900M series
Case material: Plastic
Stand: Steel
Solder sucker: Plastic and aluminum alloy
Solder wire: 97%Sn-0.7%Cu-2.0%Flux-0.8mm dia.- 0.64 oz

Weller gun tips are not steel, they are copper under the plating.  The biggest issue with the Weller gun is making sure the tip screws have good contact with the tip.

To solder Atlas track, I use the Dremel and a cutoff wheel to lightly scuff the surface where I'm going to solder.  I then tin the scuffed surface and the wire.  To join, just hold them together and they will solder in an instant.

I have to disagree with the idea that a 30-35W iron is as good as a higher power iron for the job.  You'll do far less damage to the plastic if you hold the heat on for an instant than if you're trying to heat a large chunk of metal with an anemic soldering iron.  The Weller gun makes the connection in a flash.

"I have to disagree with the idea that a 30-35W iron is as good as a higher power iron for the job.  You'll do far less damage to the plastic if you hold the heat on for an instant than if you're trying to heat a large chunk of metal with an anemic soldering iron. "

GRJ, once again we agree.

Basil posted:

aussteve posted:

Basil posted:

If you are using flux, why are you heating the rail?  Flux works to draw the liquefied solder to it. As an aside, it's the coolest thing when soldering copper pipe to watch solder run against gravity.  Anyway, clean and flux where you want to solder.  Dip your exposed wire into your flux. Place the wire at the spot of the union.  Hold the iron at the union point in order to liquefy your solder and touch your solder to your iron. The solder will melt, run to the flux and harden instantly.  Move on to your next piece.

 

Actually the primary purpose of flux is to help clean the oxides off of the solderable surface(s) and help prevent oxides from forming.  The reason solder flows to the solderable surface is due to capillary action of the surface tension of solder.  Put solder on an unclean/dirty surface and watch it form into a ball that you can flick off with your finger.  Commercially, you would want to do all of this in a positive flow nitrogen atmosphere blanket to eliminate the oxygen from the equation. 

 

I'm very impressed with your technical expertise.  I like the way heated flux smells.

It's what I do for a living, but on Ball Grid Array components with solder joints that you cannot see.  A real pain compared to the ones you can see and access with an iron.

The only thing better than the aroma of smoke pellets is rosin flux hitting the solder tip.

Scrapiron, the solder you listed in your latest post, "Solder wire: 97%Sn-0.7%Cu-2.0%Flux-0.8mm dia.- 0.64 oz" is actually lead free solder.  So it's melting/plastic region is going to be 217 to 221 degrees C.   I would try and find some tin/lead solder to use which has a much lower melting point.  Tin/lead is a eutectic solder, meaning it only has one melting point and no plastic region to deal with.  63/37  tin/lead is the most desirable, but 60/40 works well also.   You will also be able to dial your soldering iron down to a lower working temperature.

I would avoid Zinc Chloride flux.  It is an aggressive flux, which can cause corrosion in areas it fumes onto that do not get well cleaned.  I would recommend a Lonco water based acid flux if you want an aggressive flux.  Again you have to clean it very well with a water/alcohol mixture.

If you have an old Weller soldering iron with a bad tip, you can easily make a new tip out of 14 gauge or 12 gauge solid copper wire.  Generally the mid point of the wire farthest from the gun will be the hot area to use for soldering.  You can flatten and shape this area using needle nose pliers to increase the mass of the area and create a flat solderable tip area.  I have done this several times.  The solid wire tip will not last as long as the original tip but it works well. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

  I then tin the scuffed surface and the wire.  To join, just hold them together and they will solder in an instant.

I read the posts first. This is what I was planning to suggest. IMHO GRJ has offered the best advice you're received. TIN the wire first!

FWIW, I pay attention to the flux. When it gets bubbly, you're ready to solder.

I honestly wanna go solder something  right now.  Great Post !!

Moonman posted:

Track power connections for Atlas Track - SCREW IT

Moonman has it here, and I second his suggestion. Alex's method using screws works great and no soldering. I used his method on my Atlas track and it works great. It's also very easy to move your power feeds should you want to change something.

I can solder and was going to do that on my layout. Fortunately, I found Alex's build thread before I started my permanent layout. I really like Alex's method using screws and it's much easier with no melted ties if you make an error. I would certainly recommend at least trying Alex's method.