Soliciting "Your" Opinion on Why was Super O discontinued back in 66

I suspect that they were looking to cut costs and O gauge tinplate was likely cheaper to make and/or had a better margin. I suppose that there was enough Super O around (already produced)  to sell if anyone really needed/wanted some to sell….. all of this is an educated guess.

Peter

They sold their Sager Place factory in 1967, they were assembling trains in Hagerstown by 1968, they suffered a bankruptcy and divested in totality from trains by the end of 1969.

@MainLine Steam posted:

I recently fell under the "trance" of Super O.  I REALLY like the look.  I have read the many topics on here, and elsewhere on the web about Super O.  I have spent more hours than I am willing to admit reading everything I could find  on the subject.  I do have some other related questions I will post later, but this one has really got me "stumped".

Obvious answer is: Lionel felt at that point, it was not worth it to continue production of it in a declining market.  (Declining market, LOL, compared to now?)  What was the root cause of this? Did Lionel keep stockpiles in the supply chain, or did they have "blow-out" sales?

So why this post?  Well many topics I have read turn into battles over whether or not it wears center rollers.  Really hope replies stick to the question I am asking.  If you feel as though that is the answer please post that.  (The important issue with market acceptance is consumer "perception" not weather or not it is true).    Also it seems pretty unanimous that the switches had issues. (Yes or No?)  But what prevented it in Your opinion from gaining the market acceptance it needed to continue.

As I have mentioned back in 1966 I was a kid playing with Athearn HO trains.  I was oblivious to what Lionel was doing.  You guys that were into Lionel during the Super O era, what kept you from spending your Paperboy Money on it? Did you feel "blindsided" when it disappeared from the catalogs?

Hope to get a better understand of what really happened.  Thanks to all that may reply.

My first layout was all Super O   It was pretty nice track but I dont think there should be any conspiracy theory about it.  The root cause of the suspension was that Lionel was going broke. Super O track was expensive to make and had a low profit margin so it was the first cut. 

As for the track itself it was ahead of its time  There were problems but nothing big   The Little rail joiners on the middle rail loosened up alot and moved   Your pickup rollers did get a slot down the middle but I think it was more from the rail joiners than the rail itself   The early switches had a paddle for non-derailing that would snap off with alot of use   They fixed this with a lever type non derail that contacted the inside of the wheel instead of under the flange   The switch motors were great and always reliably switched    I had 30 switches on the layout   I had a 2379 Rio Grande F3 that had that slot almost all the way through the roller

Check out Roy Cohn... paraphrasing from wiki...

Things began to change rapidly after 1953... which, was Lionel's biggest sales year ...ever.  Marlon Brando, James Dean, the Interstate Highway system and the Big Bogeyman... *family*.   By the late 50's, there was a family dispute over control of the company between Cowen and his son Lawrence.  To the Rescue was Cowen's grandnephew... Attorney Roy Cohn, gained control of the company, by purchasing shares from the Cowens and on the open market  in late 1959.   Cohn's three plus years of mismanagement led to quality-control issues, plunging sales, and massive financial losses.  Cohn was forced to resign in 1963.  As mentioned... serious problems persisted for some time thereafter.

Lionel was still manufacturing some items at Sager place into the early 1970's and shipping them to Mt. Clemens for final assembly.  As far as Super "O" track, which does look great, Lionel was looking to cut anything that was complex in the late 1960's.  They were probably even planning the off loading of the train business by then.

As far as where to spend one's paper route money (or ask parents to spend theirs), one could choose between cool-looking track or many additional cars or accessories.  Seems like an easy choice for people with limited resources.

Interesting discussion.....I did not know any of this information about Lionel, but then we here in Australia in the 1950's and 1960's didn't have Lionel trains on the shelves of our department stores. They were a rare breed to us Aussies!!!!

Peter......Buco Australia.

Simple......Cost

From a user perspective lack of varied radius and longer straight tracks was a limitation.  It seemed useful for only small layouts.

I wont debate the roller issue per the OP request, but I must bring it up as it was a real fear back in the day.  Gargraves too back then.  If one feared Gargraves damaging rollers, then Super O seemed all the more dangerous.

The roller issue was and still is an urban legend...all the roller wear indicated was high mileage..and the groove was almost always shaped like tubular rail....

the lack of larger curves and more switches probably played a part in it not being widely adopted back then.

heck if lionel today would add some more larger say #5 and #6 switches. maybe a curved switch to there fastrack line. it could be the goto system in ready to run track with ballast.

at a trade show once ryan from lionel said he had considered some bigger switches for the line.

I see super O all the time for sale. looks nice but for a large layout it looks like a lot of work. plus were  the switches kinda problematic.

I saw some one years ago use ross switches with super O track. he was bending the curves also to a larger radius. thats the drawback for super O. the small radius of the curves.

with todays scale engines its not worth the hassel. plus a large layout could get expensive trying to collect enough track.

btw wasn't there another track system lionel started and droped?

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

btw wasn't there another track system lionel started and droped?

I think it was called T Rail.

Me thinks it was price. Probably hard to sell in the 50s. YES it did cut rollers in half. Rollers today seem to be made from a different material causing some to say no it didn't.

As noted the switches were a significant problem and they were not easily repaired.  Disassembly was a major headache especially for young boys.  In my opinion this remained a constant problem even after they modified their original super 0 switches.

It was the Addams Family. That same wreck, over & over, gave it a bad name.

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

btw wasn't there another track system lionel started and droped?

In the MPC era…..mid to late 70s , I believe that they advertised O gauge track with multiple plastic ties and I seem to remember that name they gave it was TruTrack (?)………not sure if it was ever produced.

I’ll try to look through my old catalogs when I’m home.

Peter

Yes, some was even sold. It was made in Germany.

@Dennis-LaRock posted:

Check out Roy Cohn... paraphrasing from wiki...

Things began to change rapidly after 1953... which, was Lionel's biggest sales year ...ever.

I contributed significantly to making 1953 a great sales year for Lionel. Bought a whole lot of Lionel trains and accessories that year, and in the years before and after, with hard-earned money made doing all sorts of neighborhood chores including grass cutting, hedge trimming, leaf raking, snow shoveling, car washing, delivering newspapers, and so forth.

Super O had the potential of being a more widely accepted track system, but it was more costly than tubular O and included a more limited range of items. By the 1530s, Lionel was the king of toys for boys (and their fathers), and most already had a good stockpile of tubular. Convincing those vast numbers of consumers to change to something else was probably not going to go over well.

Where was the market for Super O? In the 1960s, the popularity of trains, especially in O gauge, declined rapidly. Lionel was having trouble selling anything.

Lionel trains were no longer the go-to toy for young boys. Slot cars became wildly popular (at least for a couple of years) and eclipsed Lionel trains. Those of us kids who were still into trains were spending our paper-route money on things like exploding box cars and missile launchers, not replacing all our existing track with Super O. .

The natural market for Super O would have been adult operators, but how many were there back then? I don't remember many adults with train layouts, and the few that had them had gravitated to HO.

As a kid, the only time I saw Super O was in the Lionel catalog. It caught my eye because it looked so good. I don't remember, however, any  of my local hobby stores displaying Super O for sale. Maybe they had it behind the counter, but I never saw it.

When I finally saw Super O at train shows decades later, it looked just as good as it did in the old catalogs. I always wondered what would have happened if Lionel had introduced it in the early '50s.

I started running Super-O late in the game... from the late 70's to the late 90's.  I never had any roller issues with Super-O's soft copper center rail... my old tubular was a lot harder on rollers.

In the 1950s all 3 of Lionel's track systems, O, O-27 and super O, only came in one diameter.  O track with 72" diameter curves were from another era and were hard to find.  Plus everything Lionel was making in the 1950s would operate on basic supe O track (although sometimes there were issues with cars hitting the housing on switches.  So I doubt the lack of alternative diameters had anything to do with the decision to pull the plug in the 1960s.   

Thanks to all that have replied!  Being a newcomer to 3R I find the history very interesting.

What I didn't mention in my original post, since it was getting too long, was the fact I had just bought a couple of pieces of Super O to examine it up close and see how exactly it was made.  My take away was it looked fairly expensive to manufacture.

After reading some of the early replies to this topic, pulled out my copy of All Aboard by Ron Hollander. The copyright is 1981.  Anyhow, the period of 1957 to 1966 was in the chapter titled; "Off the Tracks".

So my take-away is that Super O was not perfect, but the real issue was Lionel was scrambling to stay afloat. (mentioned by many of you).  Also the product wasn't properly expanded as it should have been to remain viable.  Lastly the cost was on the high side.

I do not have catalogs from that time period, but if some of you do, I would be interested in a price comparisons in both 1957 and 1966 verses tubular Lionel Track (both O and O-27).

Disclosure:  The following paragraph is just a wild scenario extension based on my new found knowledge.  I'm taking the ball and running!

In my research before posting, I found the patent was applied for a few years before production.  Indicating initial production was delayed for whatever reason.  (Footnote: I understand the process, I have a few patents).  Obviously I have no inside knowledge of what really transpired, that's why I asked the question.  However now, lining up the events at Lionel, with the time Super O was finally introduced, I do have a theory.  (Gained by being in product development at some companies in similar precarious situations.)  Super O may have been put into production in 1957 as "the product to save the company".  As outlandish as this may seem to some, I have been there during my career.  The only way it would have worked, "if it really did turn the company around".  Which as is usually the case, "is too little, too late".  More realistic Track wasn't going to convert consumers from HO to 3R.  BTW Lionel hedged their bets by introducing HO at the same time.  Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Anyhow (theory withstanding) your replies were very helpful, thanks again.

I would tend to believe that the overall decline of 3 rail trains in the late '50s thru the early 1960's as slot cars came on the scene was a major contributor. Prior to that, electric football was our new and only competition. I vaguely remember the proliferation of slot car tracks and organized racing was probably more exciting, especially with the Dads who were able to actively join in with their boys in weekly contests. I saw that quite a bit when I was in high school and had pretty much abandoned my trains since age 13 or 14.  At 16 I traded all my American FLyer for a cheap electric guitar and amp with a music store in New Orleans that had a large Flyer layout in a back part of the store.

Super O was lost but fortunately, the trains survived!

Here are a couple of pictures of the 57 and 66 catalog pages showing the prices for both Super O and O track.

Looking at the prices the straight and curved track prices were the same at the start and the end. Automatic switches went up $2.50.

Personally I have been using Super O since 1958 and my Rio Grande has never had any cut roller issues in 65 years. It’s still the best looking track in my opinion and the only track on my postwar layout.

@Putnam Division posted:

In the MPC era…..mid to late 70s , I believe that they advertised O gauge track with multiple plastic ties and I seem to remember that name they gave it was TruTrack (?)………not sure if it was ever produced.

I’ll try to look through my old catalogs when I’m home.

Peter

MPC catalogs 1973, p14 and 1974, p19……1975……gone from the catalog without a mention.

I have no 1st hand knowledge, only what I read. The years from 71-72 through Feb 80 (when I went to a Greenberg show and got back into the hobby) , are my train wasteland (college and medical school).

Peter

@Rich Wiemann posted:

Here are a couple of pictures of the 57 and 66 catalog pages showing the prices for both Super O and O track.

Looking at the prices the straight and curved track prices were the same at the start and the end. Automatic switches went up $2.50.

Personally I have been using Super O since 1958 and my Rio Grande has never had any cut roller issues in 65 years. It’s still the best looking track in my opinion and the only track on my postwar layout.

Thank you very much Rich!

So Super O was considerably more expensive, while not much of a difference between O and O27, very helpful.

I asked others to not stray off topic, but can't resists.  It surprises me that the cost difference between a KW and ZW is much less than current used prices.

https://youtu.be/Lx7NB_gVzh8?si=mclnz5VukzRbrfxT

To see SuperO being used in the time it was produced……start at 2:10 till the end. Home movies of my 1958 set and subsequent additions up till 1963.

Peter

@Putnam Division posted:

https://youtu.be/Lx7NB_gVzh8?si=mclnz5VukzRbrfxT

To see SuperO being used in the time it was produced……start at 2:10 till the end. Home movies of my 1958 set and subsequent additions up till 1963.

Peter

Hey Peter was expecting to see NYC not NH from a guy that goes by "putnam division".  Great Movies, thanks for posting!

I started buying Super O in 1966. It took me until 1974 to acquire enough to make the 14 X 6 layout that I had in mind, My only problem was loose slide shoe coupler going through the switches. Adding the uncoupler and the power blades was a little challenge.

Then Lionel seduced me to real O gauge by adding O72 curves, O54 curves and O72  switches to the product line in the late 1970s and 1980s. I made the mistake of dumping all my Super o for the wider radius O gauge.

Then along comes Atlas Track in the 1990s and all of the Scale engines.

But since 2015, I have decided to return to Super O and Post War Lionel Trains and leave the scale trains alone. The Post War Lionel Trains on Super O were my first love. I am collecting Super O to build the layout from an old Lionel Model Builder .

@Big John Henry posted:

I started buying Super O in 1966. It took me until 1974 to acquire enough to make the 14 X 6 layout that I had in mind, My only problem was loose slide shoe coupler going through the switches. Adding the uncoupler and the power blades was a little challenge.

Then Lionel seduced me to real O gauge by adding O72 curves, O54 curves and O72  switches to the product line in the late 1970s and 1980s. I made the mistake of dumping all my Super o for the wider radius O gauge.

Then along comes Atlas Track in the 1990s and all of the Scale engines.

But since 2015, I have decided to return to Super O and Post War Lionel Trains and leave the scale trains alone. The Post War Lionel Trains on Super O were my first love. I am collecting Super O to build the layout from an old Lionel Model Builder .

Hope you find what you need.  It really is neat track!

The nice thing is that there is plenty of it showing up on the market over the past few years. It’s usually inexpensive compared to the new Atlas or Gargraves track. Keep looking and it’s not hard to find.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Hey Peter was expecting to see NYC not NH from a guy that goes by "putnam division".  Great Movies, thanks for posting!

In 1958, I was only 5 and since my paternal grandparents lived along the New Haven 4 track main line, I fell in love with set 2507 and asked Santa for it.
To be fair, I am not sure there was any New York Central in the 1958 catalog….and, it really is OK to have New Haven……my “big five” is New York Central, New Haven, PennCentral, Conrail and New York Ontario & Western.

My Putnam Division Forum name comes from the fact that for 4 years (1971-75), I attended Manhattan College and for 4 years drove over the Putnam Division ( at West 240th and Van Cartland Park South). 20 years later when I realized it, I desperately sought to learn everything I could about the defunct Putman Division.

Peter

@Big John Henry posted:

I started buying Super O in 1966. It took me until 1974 to acquire enough to make the 14 X 6 layout that I had in mind, My only problem was loose slide shoe coupler going through the switches. Adding the uncoupler and the power blades was a little challenge.

Then Lionel seduced me to real O gauge by adding O72 curves, O54 curves and O72  switches to the product line in the late 1970s and 1980s. I made the mistake of dumping all my Super o for the wider radius O gauge.

Then along comes Atlas Track in the 1990s and all of the Scale engines.

But since 2015, I have decided to return to Super O and Post War Lionel Trains and leave the scale trains alone. The Post War Lionel Trains on Super O were my first love. I am collecting Super O to build the layout from an old Lionel Model Builder .

John Henry

There is a nice fellow who is a Super O dealer and expert in Red Lion PA, pretty close to York. One of my high school buddies from the Bronx (who also lives in Virginia), has bought from him and finds him to be reputable. He restores old Super O track and repairs switches, usually having some for sale.

He sets up every York in the Orange Hall.

www.redliontraindepot.com

@Andrew B. posted:

They sold their Sager Place factory in 1967, they were assembling trains in Hagerstown by 1968, they suffered a bankruptcy and divested in totality from trains by the end of 1969.

Just to correct the record straight, Lionel did not sell the Sager Place factory in 1967 but rather in 1974.  Very few trains were assembled for a few months in Hagerstown before they shut down that operation, and Lionel did not file for bankruptcy as a corporation until about 1982.

Bob Osterhoff

@Putnam Division posted:

In 1958, I was only 5 and since my paternal grandparents lived along the New Haven 4 track main line, I fell in love with set 2507 and asked Santa for it.
To be fair, I am not sure there was any New York Central in the 1958 catalog….and, it really is OK to have New Haven……my “big five” is New York Central, New Haven, PennCentral, Conrail and New York Ontario & Western.

My Putnam Division Forum name comes from the fact that for 4 years (1971-75), I attended Manhattan College and for 4 years drove over the Putnam Division ( at West 240th and Van Cartland Park South). 20 years later when I realized it, I desperately sought to learn everything I could about the defunct Putman Division.

Peter

Funny how life works, things we just take for granted can all of a sudden take on a new significance.

Some of my earliest recollections, are of standing at the picture window in our apartment watching NH passenger trains streaking by on the Shoreline.  We moved from that apartment when I was 3.

@funfactory posted:

Just to correct the record straight, Lionel did not sell the Sager Place factory in 1967 but rather in 1974.  Very few trains were assembled for a few months in Hagerstown before they shut down that operation, and Lionel did not file for bankruptcy as a corporation until about 1982.

Bob Osterhoff

https://www.tcatrains.org/etra...-trains-fun-factory/

This article from the TCA which seems to cite your book has the dates I quoted for Sager Place.

There's also numerous sources that state that the Lionel Corporation's first bankruptcy filing was August 7, 1967. What is the source of that date if that's incorrect?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

I think it was called T Rail.

Mark it was TRUTRACK SYSTEM,it was made in Italy the rails were made of aluminum the problem was the rails tended to oxidize so no electrical contact.Also separate snap on roadbed was available,switches were also made...I got mine from Chas Ro back in the 70's....stock # for the roadbed is 6-5602

@Big John Henry posted:

I started buying Super O in 1966. It took me until 1974 to acquire enough to make the 14 X 6 layout that I had in mind, My only problem was loose slide shoe coupler going through the switches. Adding the uncoupler and the power blades was a little challenge.

Then Lionel seduced me to real O gauge by adding O72 curves, O54 curves and O72  switches to the product line in the late 1970s and 1980s. I made the mistake of dumping all my Super o for the wider radius O gauge.

Then along comes Atlas Track in the 1990s and all of the Scale engines.

But since 2015, I have decided to return to Super O and Post War Lionel Trains and leave the scale trains alone. The Post War Lionel Trains on Super O were my first love. I am collecting Super O to build the layout from an old Lionel Model Builder .

That is one nice plan for a long run in limited space, definitely saving this image for future reference.

TRUTRACK roadbed,I have the track...just can't find it...joe