Stan, GGG, etc Wonder if anyone at MTH can tell us the PWM frequency of their boards.

What coreless motor are you looking at?

?? It was a suggestion for the Williams Challenger post. I don't have any idea yet. The stock motor is too noisy. 

I've heard some new generation motors so quiet that they don't seem to be running. That interests me. No brushes and low power draw? I believe....

Joe, there are brushless motors and coreless motor. Not the same. Brushless motors requires a special controller. Coreless motors will run off any PWM control but work best with a higher frequency than a cored motor. I don't know the frequency MTH uses but could check it with a scope. As long as the frequency above super sonic, >20khz, you should be OK. Lower frequencies are more likely to over heat a coreless motor due to lower inductance.

Pete

I should talk to this guy?  Looks like he runs DCC. Watching his videos sometimes.

I may try what I have laying around. If I buy a new motor, I'd like to get it right the first time. So I wish to ask first before making mistakes.

I really don't know much about new motors that are out there now.

What Pete says.  Brushless motors need a special controller.  I've never used coreless motors, so I'll bow to Pete's knowledge on those.

From what I found online, coreless motors are becoming a big deal in HO since they have a very smooth power curve and start at 0 volts (I assume that means very low power). For O scale, I found two types, 12V and 24V. The only ones I found were made in Europe, I think Germany. They cost between $100 and $200 new. Apparently there are used ones on eBay for cheap. I have no idea why there would be used ones out there if they are such a great thing. Do you have a PS2 or 3 board in your engine? If so, what voltage rating is the motor it is currently controlling?

George

Joe, you could experiment with coreless motors or you could just put in a 12v Pittman and get a better running engine. I know you would like to get more speed but the Pittman will improve low end, give smoother starting at much lower stall current and ramped up to WFO should give a bit more speed too. They can be had for <20 bucks on the Bay right now.

I am in the process of yanking all my 550s and 555s out my Williams and Weaver engines now.

Pete

Yes, what Pete said.....picking the right Pittman would be key.....there are Pittmans available in the size needed to fit, that can turn the RPM needed to get close....you still will surrender high speeds, but it will be night and day difference......codes on the Pittmans decal reference specific characteristics of performance......even the old Pittman numbers can be cross referenced through AMETEK, current owners of Pittman........Pat

I just want to get rid of the noise! It sounds horrible. I really don't care much for creeping along at 1MPH for long periods. If I get that, so be it.

I figure if I have to buy a motor, I should look at what's available. That's not easy, if I don't know what the PS2 board can drive.

Why buy a coreless motor, if the board won't even handle it. So hence this post!

I will of course look at available Pitman motors. I have to figure out which one to get. I don't have the money right now anyways. So this is just in preparation for the buy. I can't waste money I don't have, on wrong choices.

Joe, I can help you find a Pittman that’ll get you close to what you need....I have the old Pittman reference book, plus I have a contact at AMETEK that can point us in the right direction, and possibly reverse cross reference the new numbers back to the old ones....you certainly will get sticker shock for a new AMETEK/Pittman motor.....they’ve priced themselves right out of our market.....

Pete & I have kinda been playing “hit or miss” back and forth off line picking Pittmans for some of our projects with what the two of us have in our arsenals..... but we’ve been getting closer & closer on our stuff......I have the exact opposite of your issue with some of my projects, a lot of stuff I’m seeing is 18:1 or lower.....yours is up there, 44:1 .....it’s just a matter of finding one that’ll crank out some RPM’s and still be in the power band....heck, I might have one on the shelf that’ll fit the bill, I have a few Williams brass that show up on my radar every now and then, but they quickly disappear when something more interesting lands on my bench....😉.........Pat

GGG upgraded my PS1 Allegheny with a PS3 board. That engine has a big Pittman motor in it. It is such a great engine now! It pulls great. It goes fast or creeps slow.

George

The MTH locomotives don't have such tall gearing, so their top speed is totally different than the Williams we're talking about.  I've done a bunch of MTH PS/1 upgrades, they come out great and are pretty simple to accomplish as well.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The MTH locomotives don't have such tall gearing, so their top speed is totally different than the Williams we're talking about.  I've done a bunch of MTH PS/1 upgrades, they come out great and are pretty simple to accomplish as well.

So you're saying it's got a chance?

Are TMCC or DCC better options? I thought I have heard of folks upgrading Williams engines to PS2?

George

I've never seen a steamer creep as slowly, as in that video. In real life, once the brake is released they move quickly to walking pace or a bit above. I'm privileged to watch them each weekend in my home town, it keeps me from going stir crazy whilst my layout is in storage.

The possibility of using brushless motors is an interesting one, and none of our current systems allow for it, these small induction motors are quite common now, and we seem to lag behind current tech in the model rail world. There initial start-up current draw could be an issue? I would like to see someone do it thou.      cTr.... ( Choose the Right )

harmonyards posted:

Joe, I can help you find a Pittman that’ll get you close to what you need....I have the old Pittman reference book, plus I have a contact at AMETEK that can point us in the right direction, and possibly reverse cross reference the new numbers back to the old ones....you certainly will get sticker shock for a new AMETEK/Pittman motor.....they’ve priced themselves right out of our market.....

Pete & I have kinda been playing “hit or miss” back and forth off line picking Pittmans for some of our projects with what the two of us have in our arsenals..... but we’ve been getting closer & closer on our stuff......I have the exact opposite of your issue with some of my projects, a lot of stuff I’m seeing is 18:1 or lower.....yours is up there, 44:1 .....it’s just a matter of finding one that’ll crank out some RPM’s and still be in the power band....heck, I might have one on the shelf that’ll fit the bill, I have a few Williams brass that show up on my radar every now and then, but they quickly disappear when something more interesting lands on my bench....😉.........Pat

it's a RS550 in there right now. Let me know what else I could tell you to find a replacement.

I somehow missed Norton today so I didn't get a motor.

George S posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The MTH locomotives don't have such tall gearing, so their top speed is totally different than the Williams we're talking about.  I've done a bunch of MTH PS/1 upgrades, they come out great and are pretty simple to accomplish as well.

So you're saying it's got a chance?

Are TMCC or DCC better options? I thought I have heard of folks upgrading Williams engines to PS2?

George, they should work fine with any of those options.  I have assorted PS/1 upgrades in my stable, some are PS2/3, and some are TMCC.

Engineer-Joe posted:

harmonyards posted:

Joe, I can help you find a Pittman that’ll get you close to what you need....I have the old Pittman reference book, plus I have a contact at AMETEK that can point us in the right direction, and possibly reverse cross reference the new numbers back to the old ones....you certainly will get sticker shock for a new AMETEK/Pittman motor.....they’ve priced themselves right out of our market.....

Pete & I have kinda been playing “hit or miss” back and forth off line picking Pittmans for some of our projects with what the two of us have in our arsenals..... but we’ve been getting closer & closer on our stuff......I have the exact opposite of your issue with some of my projects, a lot of stuff I’m seeing is 18:1 or lower.....yours is up there, 44:1 .....it’s just a matter of finding one that’ll crank out some RPM’s and still be in the power band....heck, I might have one on the shelf that’ll fit the bill, I have a few Williams brass that show up on my radar every now and then, but they quickly disappear when something more interesting lands on my bench....😉.........Pat

it's a RS550 in there right now. Let me know what else I could tell you to find a replacement.

I somehow missed Norton today so I didn't get a motor.

Lemme look it up Joe, and I’ll see which one best suits the needs....I’ll see which part number best suits it by the book, and run it up my buddy at AMETEK’s flagpole and make doubly sure we’re on the right path....heck, it’s time for me to upgrade my Niagara anyways....😉.......I’ll post my findings back on here for others to see too...........Pat

Replaced the motor with a pittman 9000 and changed the gears around in the gear box of a Williams NWA. Made a big change. Runs better noise is gone.

prrq2 posted:

Replaced the motor with a pittman 9000 and changed the gears around in the gear box of a Williams NWA. Made a big change. Runs better noise is gone.

Do you know the complete number to the 9000 series Motor you installed? .....there’s a blue million different part numbers in that series alone....how was the top speed? .....thanks!.......Pat

Joe, I’ve sent a message to my contact at AMETEK/Pittman to get his input on a high revving Pittman that will come close to the characteristics of what’s in your locomotive now.....I have a model number in mind that I think would fit the bill, but I’d like his input on the suggestion......I’m thinking this particular ball bearing equipped Pittman might make the cut.....If he agrees, I can shove it in my Niagara and see if I get some speed out of it.....with no noise of course....I’ll be in touch, .......Pat