Sticker Shock

He was probably including a few "big" purchases like locos and such in addition to his $20 a week "background cost" from materials, etc.  Still, whether $8,000 or $15,000, his point is valid - over a period of many years you don't notice it an ymore than the cost of getting that triple venti latte' every day at Starbucks.

 

What is great about this hobby (and many other hobbies, too, not just toy trains) is that you can enjoy it well on just about any budget.  I think the key is to pick a budget that is not intrusive on other aspects of your life and that fits. 

 

That said, there is a conflict in my life as to "budget." I'm fortunate to have a large monetary budget for toy trains right now - essentially I spend whatever I want - but I have a very limited time budget, because I'm working four days a week/ten hours a day to earn all that money  I find myself wishing I had more time for the trains, as many here clearly do, even though I know working less would mean less money. 

 

Back to the cost of rolling stock for a moment:  I recently bought six RMT Coast Guard depressed-center flat cars with missiles for, I think, $19 per pair, or something ridiculously low like that (maybe it was  $19 per car, not pair?).  Can't remember), and also about that time a set of five Sherman tank MTH flatcars for around $65-$75 each. The two sets of cars were each worth what they cost - the RMT were very basic and small, and the MTH nicely detailed big cars with detailed tanks on each, and lots of added parts and details underneath, etc., and very, very low friction trucks -they roll downhill a lot farther than the RMT. 

As I approach my septagenarian years, I've become immune to so-called 'sticker shock'.  It's simply the way the world goes. 

 

Workers demand more.

 

Sellers charge more. 

 

Buyers pay more. 

 

Governments take more.

 

Repeat.

 

...And the viable alternative is........?????

 

I find a glass of merlot, soft classical music, hugs & kisses from the wife, a good home-cooked meal, our Goldens (Daisy & Millie) presenting themselves for a couple of belly-rubs,....and running trains, of course...mitigates the remnants of 'sticker shock' in daily life. 

 

C'est la vie.

 

KD

 

It was interesting to read the thread on the trending toward more scale product and the demise and afterlife of the affordable, less scale Industrial Rail products whose name cropped up here regarding the topic of increased cost and increased realism as sort of joined at the hip or so it seems..it seems the consensus is everyone wants more for less or without an increase in cost. Of course, that somewhat similar to a perfect storm for a variety of complaining parties, who also seem to have a common foe in quality issues out of the box. It seems that everyone got what they wanted but nobody got what they needed. Or perhaps the ones that do keep quiet.  I think the answer is in the used market as I recently purchased a relatively new used Lionel Berkshire for $40.00. Patience in searching versus a faster satisfying of desire seems to be a road few take or is this not so?

I hear the prices in Saudi Arabia are about that... 

All points well taken. 

 

I also keep complaining, but I also keep buying.

You get what you pay for.  If you want scale, detailed, prototypical MODELS, be prepared to shell out.  Atlas Master Line cars are, IMHO, second to none, save limited run brass, which will cost you LOTS more.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't cost 100% more to make a boxcar full scale instead of 7/8 compressed. The complex details I can live without.

If it is something you really want (quality over quantity) just keep your vehicle in your driveway or garage another year and that will cover a lot of train stuff.

 The other morning we went to breakfast at the local family owned restaurant.  They have these little booklets - some of you may have seen them - with a year and then a selection of products and some stats about the year, such as the team that won the Series, annual income, average house cost, tuition to Hravard, etc. The other morning the booklet at the table was 1967.  We go to this place pretty regularly, so I have seen probably twenty of them total.  The stat I look at is the ratio of average annual income to average housing cost.  Without exception, the average cost of a house is twice the average annual income and it meshes with what my grandfather used to use as a rule of thumb with your mortgage: never more than twice your annual income.  I used this rule of thumb in 2004 when we bought our home and had numerous realtors and bankers scoff.  (If more people had used that Depression-era rule we would not have had a financial crisis a few years ago, but I digress.)  So while I have not researched the issue, I would guess the housing cost to income ratio has not held.  What does all of this have to do with trains?  Fair question.  In these situations, when costs rise, people like to blame all sorts of external factors and other people and certainly in certain cases, there is truth to those analyses.  But yet the undeniable reality is that if you look around today people demand much more - their standards have risen.  So houses can't just be 1500-2000 square feet.  They require some sort of designer kitchen, a great room, etc.  Similar with trains - people don't think that you can go to a train show and find a new, or nearly new, unloved yet sturdy and durable MPC diesel for $50 -$75.  Instead the focus in on the latest Legacy or PS version GP9 that costs $300-$500.  Or a highly detailed freight car instead of a postwar reissue that could be head for less than $20 and looks really nice on the layout.  What these people complaining miss, with all respect, is that it is their demand for a certain high-end product that is the bigggest price driver of all.  As C.W. indicated, that focus on the expensive end of the hobby is, in my opinion, unfortunate. 

Where is the demand for those high end, designer kitchens and bathrooms coming from?

My wife loves to watch all those shows on cable where they spend all sort of money redecorating homes. Then there are the shows about showcase homes costing a million dollars or more.

Trains are the same way. The magazines emphasize high dollar items and large layouts that most folks will never have.

When I was I kid, there were books in the public library the covered building modest train layouts on a shoestring budget.

 

This stuff was always expensive.  Plug the cost into an inflation calculator and then roll back the date to 1960-1961.  Look in a catalog from that time period.  It's almost linear.  

 

In most cases the modern car has more detail, operating features (e.g. operating roof hatches) and is often more accurate.  No one is holding a gun to anyone's head demanding that you buy it.  If it's too expensive, pass on it.  You can still get good deals on second hand equipment and enjoy the hobby on a budget/

I have a large layout and I have spent a silly amount of money on trains and the peripheral accessories I perceived As "necessary." Since I have begun the process of selling off lots of expensive locos and cars I find I miss few, if any.

 

It ain't what you have to appreciate, when it comes to trains.

it's all appreciating what you have.

 

Try spending less.

Guess what? I never thought it would work.

It does.

 

Eliot 

It's amazing how real the price-creep is!!!  If you purchase a series of cars over a multi-year period (i.e., PS-4 flats w/piggyback trailers or mechanical reefers... just to name two from Lionel), take a look at the price from 2005 compared to that of 2013 -- and then note all the incremental increases for years in between.  On second thought, don't... you'll only get depressed.  

 

David

To be clear, I am not faulting any manufacturer or arguing that at some point in the mystical past O gauge trains were inexpensive.  My point is that it is often beneficial for individuals to be more circumspect and restrained in their purchasing instead of simply focusing on the latest thing that one simply "needs" to have, and in so doing, reducing themselves oftentimes to the equivalent of a rodent running on a wheel.  I think modern media sources do a terrific job of encouraging us to reflexively focus on what what we don't have rather than offering some perspective on what we already have.

From Wikipedia

Upselling (sometimes "up-selling") is a sales technique whereby a seller induces the customer to purchase more expensive items, upgrades, or other add-ons in an attempt to make a more profitable sale. Upselling usually involves marketing more profitable services or products but can also be simply exposing the customer to other options that were perhaps not considered previously. Upselling implies selling something that is more profitable or otherwise preferable for the seller instead of, or in addition to,^[1] the original sale. A different technique is cross-selling in which a seller tries to sell something else. In practice, large businesses usually combine upselling and cross-selling techniques to enhance the value that the client or clients get from the organization in addition to maximizing the profit that the business gets from the client. In doing so, the organization must ensure that the relationship with the client is not disrupted. In a restaurant and other similar settings, upselling is commonplace and an accepted form of business. In other businesses, such as car sales, the customer’s perception of the attempted upsell can be viewed negatively and thereby affect the desired result.

 

quote:

This stuff was always expensive.  Plug the cost into an inflation calculator and then roll back the date to 1960-1961.  Look in a catalog from that time period.  It's almost linear.  

 

There was always expensive product offered. But in the early part of the 1970's one could readily purchase new rolling stock for $6.00 per car or under, and new Geeps could be purchased for $25 each. My Coke set, purchased directly from Andy Kriswalus was $40.

 

quote:

You can still get good deals on second hand equipment and enjoy the hobby on a budget

 

It is a shame that the media (print and electronic) doesn't place more emphasis  on this end of the hobby.

IMHO, every point that has been made on this thread is valid and true. Unfortunately, they also point out one of the reasons the number of people entering the hobby will be limited as people look for other, less expensive leasure time pursuits.

 

I got my license in 2007, and remember filling up for $1.60. That means in the 6 years I have been driving, the price of gas has doubled (and a few times almost tripled!). With the cost of transporting ANYTHING doing that, of course prices of items are going up.It's a sad fact of life. I'm just glad that items such as groceries, goods, and toy trains have not gone up even more.

 

As Adam Savage says: "Well there's your problem"

I consider my model train puchases to be my way of contributing to the economy lol.  Us silly Americans - we want to be paid a ton of money at our job, and we want to pay as little as possible for the things we buy that other people, who also want higher pay, have to make.  What is one to do???

Except in the 1970's folks like me were pulling down something like $270 a week, before taxes.  After taxes it was probably less than $200.

 

And the trains mentioned above were still postwar based, no fancy electronics or the highly detailed stuff available today.

 

And we didn't have things like cell phones, internet service and cable/satellite tv sucking us dry.

 

Rusty

 

 

As a high schooler in 1973, my first job was the local McDonald's.

 

Hamburger + Fries + Small Coke = .63

 

Today, just the all new (re-introduced for the 40th time) Quarter Pounder Deluxe = 3.99

 

So, if prices have such great influence of the market - then why are my jeans so danged tight?  Not to worry, though. Soon I won't be able to wear them at all.  (Don't look, Ethel!)

 

Which increasingly lends validity to 'appetite drives the markets'.

Can't compare the quater pounder to the regular McD's hamburger of yore.

 

A regular burger, small fries and coke will cost about $3.00 off the dollar menu today.

 

Rusty

quote:

Except in the 1970's folks like me were pulling down something like $270 a week, before taxes.

 

Yet I could afford to buy trains on my paper route money.,

I think up selling has been hugely successful in the model train industry that also has an added benefit of planned obsolescence. Lionel has wisely taken this ball from their perspective and run with it as has MTH..In many examples, you do not buy an items once, but as many times an upgrade is introduced. Comparing a typical postwar model train to what is common now is like mixing the apples with the oranges. A clip on, a transformer and wire versus a growing list of peripherals. To wit: Upselling is all about...."to purchase more expensive items, upgrades, or other add-ons in an attempt to make a more profitable sale. Upselling usually involves marketing more profitable services or products but can also be simply exposing the customer to other options that were perhaps not considered previously."

Allan's essay on state of the industry in the latest OGR shows what an enormous industry in profit making this upselling is. Both parties, the consumer and the manufacturer do this dance willingly..and common sense tells me at some point there will be a ceiling in costs that a significant portion of the consumers will not be willing to pay or can afford to pay. Everything has it's limits despite fantasies that this is not so. I see that one boxcar can cost a great deal now, and of course you need a reasonable consist not just one boxcar to pull along..so add up the cost of say, a ten car consist..with caboose. In my opinion, this situation is one that began some time ago as far as jumping the shark.

I agree with Eliot.  Around 2005 I became much more selective about what I really wanted and "needed".  I have managed to thin the herd at nearly every York since.  Some of the recouped funds have gone into layout building materials, some have purchased a new necessary car or structure, but I feel very good about divesting excess and frivolous purchases.  Fortunately, I have not acquired any locomotives I don't want or need (I only have 5 PRR steamers & 1 diesel switcher and they are more than enough motive power).

 

I don't need 18 ore cars when 10-12 will give the same impression.  Plus the layout really won't support trains that are over 10 cars in length - they just don't look good.

 

I've adopted a quality over quantity mindset.

Much better. 

 

George

And what other financial responsibilites did you have to absorb your paper route money? Rent? Homeowners Insurance? Car insurance? Home and vehicle maintenance? Utilities? Medical bills?  Did they even take income taxes out of your route money back then?

 

I could afford to buy trains back then, too.  Except they were Athearn and Mantua/Tyco, not PFM and LMB.

 

Rusty

 

quote:

And what other financial responsibilites did you have to absorb your paper route money? Rent? Homeowners Insurance? Car insurance? Home and vehicle maintenance? Utilities? Medical bills?  Did they even take income taxes out of your route money back then?

 

In the 1970's paper routes were handled by kids. The income was quite low, one couldn't live on it. Kids on bicycles generally don't have financial responsibilties. Couldn't tell you about income taxes, I don't remember.  So what is your point?

The point is you made the over simplified statement "Yet I could afford to buy trains on my paper route money.," 

 

That's the beauty of childhood, no financial responsibilities.  

 

If would have had any financial responsibilities, your trains would have been much less affordable on your paper route money. 

 

Hence, things looked rosier back then.

Rusty

Curious how much one earned doing a paper route back in the 1970s?  A typical Lionel new boxcar probably cost $5.00 back then, no?  So how long did one need to save to afford a new Lionel boxcar?

 

These days it's not unusual for a kid to have a cell phone with unlimited text messaging and maybe a data plan for $50-55 a month on their family plan.  That's a lot money if you convert it to trains .

Lol I agree with Lan. It seems like every time I enter my local hobby shop, it costs me $200 or more. Therefore, I try not to go very often. I do enjoy this hobby. I enjoy running the trains, operating accessories, spending time with my grand kids and having a release. David55

quote:

If would have had any financial responsibilities, your trains would have been much less affordable on your paper route money.

 

And?

A kid earning today's equivalent of "paper route money" might be able to afford some of today's low end trains (certainly not Lionel), but certainly wouldn't be encouraged to do so by today's media.

According to an email straight from the horses mouth Lionel has come out with an affordable set that comes with a remake of their famous Hellgate Bridge..and free shipping. They must have been reading our comments. Maybe Lee W can kitbash this set.

 

quote:

 These days it's not unusual for a kid to have a cell phone with unlimited text messaging and maybe a data plan for $50-55 a month on their family plan.  That's a lot money if you convert it to trains

 

If left to choose between a cell phone and toy trains, I doubt many kids would choose the trains.

 

At $500.00 an engine, the kid would have to set aside his earnings for a year and buy a car to go behind it every two months, for the next year. In two years, he'd be ready to buy the track. What he would have is a train going in a small cycle like a circular conveyor belt. I am sure most kids would prefer to watch grass grow or browse the internet.

Trains have always been and are now a luxury item except for the economy end of the market (Marx then, RMD now, as examples).  My point about cell phones was more about how people use their discretionary income (beyond shelter, clothing, food, medical care, transportation).  Kids will doubtless favor shoes, clothes, dating and cell phones before trains in most cases.  There's more competition for a kid's money these days than in 1950, although there's more money per capita, even after adjusting for inflation.

 

I think perhaps sticker shock may well be more about people's declining income in retirement, combined with the effects of the recession/unemployment than any real inflation adjusted increase in the real cost of Lionel (or comparable) toy trains.  These toys were pricey in the 1920s, 30s and 50s, and they are pricey is the 1990s, 2000s' and 2010s. 

Eliot - you are a sick, sick man.  You need to spend more money.  Just ask Lionel.  Just ask MTH.  They will assure you this is the case.

 

But given that you are happier spending less, how do you know where the sweet spot is?  Do you think you'd be in absolute heaven if you stopped spending, period?

 

That, I think, is the real question: how much restraint is optimum? 

I just can't understand this O-Gauge mentality of BUY BUY BUY!  And certainly not the mentality of pre-ordering.  Why pre-order something when you don't know exactly what it will cost, or even what it will exactly be?  In the past 10 years, NONE of my purchases have been new from dealer or store.  All have been "used" on the secondary market, i.e. ebay or similar.

You guys are trying to pin the problem of a massively inflated money supply on the attitudes of people, and that's backwards.  The attitude of people feeling entitled to more is a result of people being given more, in the terms of fake money (you call it "credit") to buy our support for Kenyesian economics.  Well, we bought into it, and now we're on the hook.  But trust me, the problem isn't anyone's attitude, or anyone's laziness, it's way above that.  We're teetering on the edge of a currency collapse as bad as the peso or the ruble,  but if you want to say it's because people are lazy, or expect more for less work, or just that young people are the problem, hey that's fine, go with it.   

   My thanks to everyone in this forum thread. It's one of the best I've read in a long time. In traveling from relative dollar values back in the day to Keynesian economics there's a lot there to grasp. But, to quote Wikipedia: New Keynesian macroeconomic analysis usually assumes that households and firms have rational expectations. And, perhaps there is the key. What seems rational to one may seem absurd to another, and is the basis for divorce, small and large train rooms, smart and dumb humor, and unfortunately, war. 

   Let me return to the reason we're here. We love trains, real and toy and all close and in-between. We seem to be a strange breed, according to an average person, and in their limited scope, they're right. Many, if not most of us became enamored with trains when they were truly magnificent specimens of free-flowing design; ie: Raymond Loewy's GG1, the early era diesels and Budd passenger cars, the romance of the rails.

   We need not worry about kids entering the hobby. My four adopted kids are as entranced by our steamers and F-units and Geeps and Trainmasters as they are at a typical grade crossing by today's squared-off utilitarian 120 unit-trains, although I'm not. So I remember something they've never seen. What they love is the movement, the size, the idea of something so big and mesmerizing moving thru the landscape and going somewhere they don't know of. Come to think of it, that's exactly what hooked me in when I was 5. They don't care that almost all my stuff is postwar, lots of it fixed up to run again. They just love the movement, the sounds, the lights, the man who slings ice blocks into an ice bunker at 585 mph, the log and coal dumpers, the baggage carts going around, the crossing gates and cantilever flashing and the smoke, the whistles, the horns, the scaled-down simplified reality that invites anyone to simply appreciate the beauty of these wonderful trains.

   I think one can get that for less than a thousand dollars' worth of trains, or on the other hand, miss that beautiful inner, wondrous connection - even with 80 thousand dollars' worth of high-tech stuff that will always fall short of the reality it stretches out so far to capture. Many of us are fine with stretching our imagination instead of our financial security. It's also one of the strongest underlying purchase mechanisms: We want what our inner kid wants. Maybe the most successful of us knows how to say both yes and no to that wonderful kid when he/she drools at some item in a catalog or on the bay...

Although I can't quite make that claim yet, I do understand that feeling of euphoria.

 

Reminds me of how I felt when I cured myself of Atlas-O "reefer madness" years ago.  Like many of us here, I started out thinking they were gonna be the modern era's version of coveted 6464 collectibles... and actually had a foolish dream I might be able to collect them all.    Didn't take too long to realize there were gonna be more produced than I could ever display let alone run on even a reasonably large sized layout -- especially when everyone and his brother was producing a special run.    I knew I was fully cured of "reefer madness" when I wasn't even tempted to look at newly announced models much less pre-order one.  

 

It's quite a wonderful feeling!!!

 

David

 

Spoken with the fervor only the truly rehabilitated addict could have!

 

I am trying to rid myself of an addiction to 1:43 scale cars and trucks, with only limited success.