What is a water scoop?

@laz1957 posted:

One question I have is how many gallons of water can be picked up with the scoop at a time?

Depending on the speed, anywhere from about 5000 to 10,000 gallons. The NYC "water scooping" operation/process was not necessarily to fill the tender completely, but to continually scoop water at every track pan. The PT tenders were designed for scooping water at up to 80 MPH.

The scoop design and track pan design was such that the scoop was only "into the water" about 2 to 3 inches, i.e. just scooping off the top of the track pan.

@Hot Water posted:

Depending on the speed, anywhere from about 5000 to 10,000 gallons. The NYC "water scooping" operation/process was not necessarily to fill the tender completely, but to continually scoop water at every track pan. The PT tenders were designed for scooping water at up to 80 MPH.

The scoop design and track pan design was such that the scoop was only "into the water" about 2 to 3 inches, i.e. just scooping off the top of the track pan.

That is a good point, if it was any deeper the water would act like a brake on a rocket sled, it could potentially cause all kinds of havoc. I used to wonder about then when I ready about it a long time ago, thinking of this scoop deep in the water, but with a couple of inches the decelerative force would be relatively small.

@Apples55 posted:

I actually have one or two of these, but I can't dig them out of storage just now... would love to know what they were thinking over in Hillside that day

A fine example of 'Reverse Engineering', maybe??...

I suppose it depends on how far the engineer overshot that last station stop whether this would be useful.

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There was another faux pas re this device on Ebay a few years back.  The seller...obviously a bubble or two off of plumb on railroad knowledge/terminology...had one of these listed making note of the "cowcatcher" underneath.  I found the auction early one morning doing a quick search of new auctions.   I mentioned it on the Forum.  Later in the day the seller corrected some of it, but apparently not the auction title..."...LIONEL-POSTWAR-2046-WHISTLE-TENDER-W-COW-CATCHER-SUPER-CLEAN-..."

Poor cows...and a hobo.  Tough way to go, that's for sure!

KD

On the NYC, the pans used treated water from the nearby railroad water treatment plant. Those plants had boilers from old, previously retired NYC steam locomotives. The function of those boilers was to provide steam to bubble into the pan and keep ice from forming during winter operation.

NYCSHS has both drawings and articles published in the Central Headlight that describes this operation in detail. I can't recall the depth of the scoop into the water, but NYC engineers were advised to open the locomotive throttle completely when scooping water to minimize the drag of the water on the train,

If the scoop did not retract or retract completely, the scoop was sacrificed, as the pans had a clearance ramp that would damage the scoop and minimize damage to the pan. In 1945 (from my memory), Niagara #6002 running east from Chicago derailed with a number of cars in the train. A freight Mohawk had just passed over this track after taking water, and the scoop did not fully retract. The track was out of alignment since, after the Mohawk scooped water, it ran over a road crossing and tore up the crossing. (Some timbers from the crossing were found INSIDE the Mohawk's tender.) The dragging road crossing timbers knocked the track out of alignment.

Perhaps as a result of these types of problems, the ICC wanted the RR to install a warning system that would detect a dragging scoop.

This is a fascinating topic and shows how precious a few minutes on each run were to the railroad.

@dkdkrd posted:

A fine example of 'Reverse Engineering', maybe??...

---------------

There was another faux pas re this device on Ebay a few years back.  The seller...obviously a bubble or two off of plumb on railroad knowledge/terminology...had one of these listed making note of the "cowcatcher" underneath.  I found the auction early one morning doing a quick search of new auctions.   I mentioned it on the Forum.  Later in the day the seller corrected some of it, but apparently not the auction title..."...LIONEL-POSTWAR-2046-WHISTLE-TENDER-W-COW-CATCHER-SUPER-CLEAN-..."

Poor cows...and a hobo.  Tough way to go, that's for sure!

KD

Loooking at the picture, isn't the scoop on the tender backwards? The drawbar is to the left, the scoop seems to be facing to the back of the tender, not the front, wouldn't pick up much water with the scoop facing like that I would think....

@bigkid posted:

Loooking at the picture, isn't the scoop on the tender backwards? The drawbar is to the left, the scoop seems to be facing to the back of the tender, not the front, wouldn't pick up much water with the scoop facing like that I would think....

Yes. It's a toy train manufactured backwards.

The scoop just sits there, the whistle holds it down. With the whistle out, the scoop lifts out and can be dropped in facing the other direction.

Is this how you "wet your whistle"

@fastman posted:

Is this how you "wet your whistle"

Good one!   (Needs the accompaniment!)

@Hot Water posted:

Yes. It's a toy train manufactured backwards.

Actually the scoop in that tender is a separate piece and can be put in either way.  The person who worked on it last was a railroad expert.

Hey Guys,

I lived in Middlesex Borough, Middlesex County, N.J. and in the town of Dunellen (same County and bordered with Middlesex Borough), the Central Railroad of N.J. had 4 main lines that ran through it that back in the day (1930 ish) there were track pans within those mainlines. I've seen pictures of the tracks with the water splashing all around the tender base but never saw them in real life. I believe the pics were at the Model Railroad Shop in Dunellen that I saw, (original owner Fred Diebert was an avid train chaser as well as owner of the Model R.R. Shop which is still in existance). The Model R.R. Shop is a stones throw from the CNJ, now N.J. Transit. In the June 2021 Classic Toy Trains magazine, there is a black & white pic of a 4-6-0 Camelback (Mother Hubbard death trap) scooping up water from a pan on the fly in Dunellen N.J. Really cool pic in magazine taken around late 1931. NJCJOE I know, knows more about the history of the Central Railroad of New Jersey than most, just ask him! Just kidding Joe!!!

     Steam Forever

            John

@Apples55 posted:

I actually have one or two of these, but I can't dig them out of storage just now... would love to know what they were thinking over in Hillside that day

That is the often rumored but seldom photographed PRR experimental Cab-Forward Tender.

I think it's more likely someone worked on the tender - maybe working on the whistle - and put it back together wrong, rather than it coming wrong from the factory. But mix-ups do happen.

The scoop is on right. It's the rest of the tender that's backwards.

I have this in my trainroom, found out an antique store years ago.  Hard to read but part of it references the water pan and scooping into the tender.

Excellent thread.  I have a scale NYC Hudson from a few years back that I purchased from @MrMuffin'sTrains that had this as one of the options in their custom runs.  It's a pretty cool feature.

John

Very interesting and valuable information. I'd never heard of these before (growing up in UP territory) and doing research on Lionel tenders I ran across a note regarding the 1060T ("Note the lack of a water scoop on this tender.")  I'd seen these 'scoops' on some tenders but never questioned what they were until I saw that note, thus prompting me to come to the source in hopes of learning more.  I'm so glad you're all here!

At last count (1989)  PRR K-4s 1361 at Altoona still had a water scoop under the tender.  So nothing stupid happens, the scoop was permanently welded in the "up" position.