Suggestions Needed: MTH Milwaukee Road Bi-Polar 20-5511-1

Does this loco have a switch on the bottom for rail vs pantograph power?

I would def replace with a BCR.  It's a pain in the butt to open and get back together, so you might as well use a BCR.

At the leadt,Im sure the battery needs a good charge

Thanks, Jeff.

I don't think there is a switch for pantograph power but I will check again.

I think the BCR switch is my next move.

If that's the original battery, it has to be replaced.  Your call whether to use a battery or BCR.  I would suggest trying it with an alkaline first, or another 8.4 if you have one, because that's a 5-volt board and they often fail, in which case you don't want to be out the $$ for a battery or BCR that would not be usable in the replacement board.  After the test, remove the alkaline promptly.

Hi Scrappy,

 Also try a recover engine feature on your DCS.

When power is provided to the track, what happens?

Will it operate conventionally?

If the 2 answers are "nothing" and "no", swapping out the battery isn't going to help.

That's true, Barry, but a 2000 battery still needs to be replaced.

Glad you made in back to Bear County.

Is the transformer plugged into the wall?

Where'd you find the bi-polar at York?  I didn't see any.

From the instruction manual for that engine:

"Lock into a Direction:
You can lock your engine into a direction (forward, neutral, or reverse) so that
it will not change directions. To do this, put the engine into the direction you
want (or into neutral to lock it into neutral), run it at a very slow crawl (as
slowly as it will move without halting), and quickly but firmly tap the Horn
button once followed by three quick taps of the Bell button, allowing
approximately ½ second to lapse between each quick button press. Two horn
blasts will indicate that the engine has made the change. The engine will not
change direction (including going into neutral) until you repeat the 1 horn, 3
bells code to return the engine to its normal condition, even if the engine is
kept without power for extended periods of time."

Maybe it's locked in neutral.  If you didn't get the manual, it's on-line.

Yep   Check out the  Battery.   first move for sure. This engine came out before the remote &tiu.   If original ,the battery must be at least 15 years old . get it out of there wherever it's hidden.

Many thanks for all the suggestions.

I will try to power the loco conventionally and report back.

Thanks, again

Barry,

As per your instructions:

1) Nothing under power with the TIU online

2) Conventionally, also dead

I assume a board replacement is now in order.

I did replace the battery but, as Barry has pointed out, that did not help.

Any suggestions about what the likely cost to have a board replaced parts and work?

Thanks again for everyone's input.

Eliot

The repair for this is a PS-32 upgrade.  This effectively gives you a PS-3 board in the engine.  I have used this board to repair this engine.  I can be contacted via profile e-mail on cost to repair.  G

Bottom line as now.. It's completely dead Everything?? Not even a faint relay click?? (hopefully)

 As chuck suggests .. Did you try the recover engine feature with DCS?   It's worth a shot.

Recover Engine was a failure.

Dead as a doornail.

Thanks, all, for your suggestions.

Off to the tech.

Eliot

Eliot, I run two of those engines.  Before you put it on track, please try this.  Lay the engine on it's side and using a long pair of needle nose pliers grab the plugs between the sections and push them in hard.  Next, pick up the engine carefully to keep everything aligned and put it on the track.  Next, with the pliers push the plugs in to confirm they are seated properly.  Slide the rubber covering the space between sections in and see what you have.

Before any testing or attempt to operate a locomotive this old, the following must be done.  Discard the white battery.  Do not charge it, throw it away.  Replace it with a fully charged GREEN MTH battery.  If you attempted to run this with an old white battery, you are doomed.

Hey Marty I was hoping you'd reply. Is it possible to run the engine with the over head pantograph only??    If so grab a piece of wire and try it, Jumper  Center rail to pantograph.

Gregg, I run both of my engines under wire.  No rollers on my electric locomotives.  This being an early MTH electric it does not have the pan wired to the board.  It has a solder lug under the pan.  The wires that went to rollers before now go to this solder lug.   

This is a tough engine to deal with.  The wires (plugs) between sections must be plugged in perfectly.

"If you attempted to run this with an old white battery, you are doomed."

I'm doomed, Marty. I threw it on the track and tried to charge that old white battery.

I think when Marty says "doomed," he means doomed to failure, not that it destroys anything.

The need to dispose of white 8.4 batteries has been mentioned many times on the forum.

Thats it Eliot.  Two days without supper.  That white battery is about 15 years old.  Bob, I mention it every time because the 5 volt boards do not exist.  Not every engine will take the PS32 board.  I think George (GGG) may have done one.

Thanks for the quick reply Marty...  I suppose  it's  possible that the engine was modified but that's wishful thing at this point.    It just seems strange there's nothing..  dead as a door nail,

Gregg, those plugs being seated are the key.  Whenever I power my locomotives up, I cross my fingers.  I have a spread sheet on my bench computer that tells me when the replacement battery was installed.  I still have about 90 5 volt boards running around on my system.  I buy the green batteries in large numbers.

I've had a number of 5V board equipped locomotives come in DOA, no hint of any action in conventional or command.

John, I am a huge fan of the 32 boards.

I know that Marty,  I've had enough mystery failures of PS/3 boards that the jury is still out with me, but maybe they'll win me over.

As MArty States this happens more times than not, and it doesn't always have to be the battery.  There are several components between the two boards that can fail over time with age/stress etc...  That board has several circuits that components are operated near or at their limit.  PS-2 3V far superior.

That is the risk buying PS-2 5V at these shows.  There are several productions runs that seem to have a high failure rate based on repairs I have seen.  Such as FEF, there are a few others.  G

I have two of these original BiPolars sitting in storage. One I ran many years ago, the other is new in box. What is this about using the original white 8.4 volt NiCad batteries - am I understanding right that putting an older engine on the track with one of these batteries can do damage to the PS2.0 circuitry?

I've had enough mystery failures of PS/3 boards that the jury is still out with me, but maybe they'll win me over

Interesting comment, GRJ.  I picked up, at York, a locosounds Y6B that I'm going to upgrade.  I have both PS2 & PS3 upgrade kits on the shelf.  Sounds like you prefer the PS2 for reliability, but Marty prefers the PS3??????

GGG, an FEF I bought new was my first 5-volt to go, about 3 years old.  Must have been around 2007 when it failed.

Paul, before you even think about putting those locomotives on the track, open them both up and install a new fully charged green MTH battery.  Another point on the green battery.  Those may have been packaged a while ago and need a good full charge before putting them in the locomotive.  Any white 8.4 volt battery should be discarded.  I do not care how great they look.  You would not trust your car with a 15 year old battery.  The Bi-Polar is one engine that seems to go out to lunch very often.  I have dealt with a few of them.

Marty, I have a few 8.4-volt MTH Ni-Cads that are pearlescent white and bear the code J48.  My recollection is that the real oldies weren't pearlescent.  Are these the batteries of which you speak?

Marty, does the Bi-Polar need the FLASH board or the standard 5V board?

They showed up before the green battery.  They were junk from the get-go.

Don't think it needed a flash board. The Bi-Polars don't have automatic pantographs.

No flash required for Bi Polar.   PS-32 fits, but it is tight and you need a precision placement.  One thing good about the PS-32 in the Bipolar is you no longer have to worry about connection to other unit where the battery would have been, plus speaker is in with board.   G

One good reason why we read this forum, the information presented.  I purchased a used Bi-Polar couple years ago when working in Nevada.  I have not had any problems with, so I have not ever opened it up.  All of the above discussions are most helpful should I encounter any in the future.  Many thanks to all from those with experience and greater knowledge than others possess, their sharing and insights.

Do yourself and your engine a turn and put in a NEW green battery.

Thanks, I didn't think so, but then I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Marty,

  Yes, I have several new green batteries, new, and have changed / replaced with these in many of my MTH engines (those not converted over to TMCC/ERR systems).  I plan to open the Bi-Polar and place inside a green battery, if not performed by previous owner.  Again, many thanks to all for the information.