Super-Chuffer Chuff Generation Enhancement

My first thought for a simple adjustable setting for the sensor was to use a small screw terminal block such as the little green ones you see on all the Chinese electronics modules.  Mounted on the end of the board, at a 90 degree angle this would allow the sensor to be slid to the desired length then the screws tightened.  

My second thought was the old adage, "if you make something idiot-proof, someone will just make a better idiot".  When all is said and done, I figure if someone has the skills needed to install a super chuffer, they likely also have the skills to solder in an optical sensor.  

JGL

I looked for those little connector blocks.  They're pretty pricey, at least all that I found.

Hmm...  I looked, but it's next to impossible to zero in on something as specific as these connector blocks.  They seem to be fore more targeted to end user products and not parts.

Here's some...these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-pc...3:g:udEAAOSwpDdVdwRV

Price is OK, but they're huge, 5mm spacing!  That.s .2", makes the block half the size of my board.

The 2.54mm pitch would be preferred, or is there a smaller one? Seems the 2.54mm ones are at least double the price of the ones cjack posted?

I got a kit of these (assorted number of terminals) a year or so ago and thought they were also a bit high, but it was all I could find. Doesn't look like things have come down any since then?

The issue with these is two-fold.  One is the fact that the stick out quite a ways, and that will create a clearance issue trying to position this board on the motor.  Also, they add cost and assembly time to the board for little or no gain.

Yes and it's clunky. The soldering seems best overall.

John this all sounds great I have now read all 3 pages of the book here.

Waiting now for the movie....

NelsonW posted:

John this all sounds great I have now read all 3 pages of the book here.

Waiting now for the movie....

Who would of thought a add on product would generate such interest?  Tell how well it will sell when it comes out.

Movie coming up, I'm going to get to that shortly.

I definitely understand the space and cost issues. I think I have yet to use any of the terminals from the kit, just looked like something one should have around just in case...like so many other gadgets I have around here.

I like the terminals, and I was tempted to use them on the Super-Chuffer.  However, they add materially to the cost, and they really make a difference as to where it'll fit if it's a tight fit.

Hi John,

Have you given much thought to Beta testers? While I’m in no rush I have one project that would be perfect for your new invention which I’m going to put on hold (ERR cruise, sounds, super chuffer in a 3rdrail engine with a intake tach tape on the flywheel).

Also looking at my 3rdrail engine with a flywheel the same diameter as the motor.  So I'm thinking you may still need to use somewhat thick double sided tape, just to keep the sensor high enough for calibration and not hitting the flywheel?  Luckily this 3rdrail engine came with a bracket to hold the original tach reader in place.  Wondering if I could use that.

I have an engine that is ready for an upgrade too (MTH PS1 Cab Forward being upgraded to TMCC) - I'm happy to test it as well.

I kind of like that grey double sticky 3M stuff made for sort of permanently sticking trim on cars, etc. I try not to use too large a piece so that I can remove it. I have stuck outlet strips on vertical surfaces with it and darn near not been able to remove them later. Once you get the item loose, you can just roll it off with your fingers to remove it. I use more than one thickness to adjust height. It's not conductive to the bottom of circuit boards.

For permanent installations, which I'm assuming this should be, I use strips of fiberglass board and CA adhesive.  I build up the mount to the desired size.  If you have .062 and .031 fiberglass stock, you can get to the desired thickness.  For smaller flywheels, I mount it on a single piece of fiberglass and just solder the sensor extended to the proper spacing.  The leads on the sensors are about 1/2", so there's plenty of adjustment.  The first piece of fiberglass is rounded to match the motor contour so it's a solid base.  I've mounted a number of the MTH tach sensors using the fiberglass, it's rock solid and I've never had an issue.

Chuck's method I have also used, it works fine as well.  I may try to find several thicknesses of the double-sided foam and use that, it's probably quicker.  OTOH, you can actually bump them hard and move the sensor out of alignment, so it's not perfect.

I did run across an interesting issue, I had to remote the sensor from the board for an MTH Atlantic, there was no place with clearance for the board inside the shell.  The only place I could put the sensor was right on the chassis facing up on the motor mount.  I just put the sensor on a piece of perf board and ran the four leads over to the board using a hunk of ribbon cable.

I tend to doubt that you can use the old tach holder, it would be pretty surprising to have it match the size and spacing of this board.

I've used a few of these chuff generators in upgrades, here's a typical mounting for a Lionel steamer with a Pittman motor.  In this case, I take a piece of fiberglass and using my Dremel I shape one side to match the motor contour.  This is glued on the motor in the proper position, then the chuff generator is positioned and glued onto that mounting base.  Before gluing, I insert (but don't solder) the IR sensor.  After the board is bonded and secure, I use a 1mm shim to space the sensor from the flywheel and solder it in place.  The flywheel tape is just one I print out onto shipping label stock.  The beauty of the tach tape is the stripe count is not critical, as you're going to calibrate the rotation anyway.  Note that the calibration connections are blank at J1, I'll just clip a lead to those to calibrate, then remove it for running.

For smaller Mabuchi motors, I typically have to have the sensor soldered directly to the board with no spacing and add a spacer or two under the PCB to allow clearance from the flywheel.  To that end, I'm laying in a supply of thinner fiberglass to make narrower shims for precise spacing. 

Since this install was not a Super-Chuffer, I needed a source of 5V power.  For TMCC upgrades, I typically tap into the R2LC in that case for the little bit of 5V I need.  However, this locomotive has the wireless tether already using that supply, and I'm reluctant to risk overloading it.  That being the case, I just make a little module with a diode, cap, and 5V regulator, encase it in heatshrink, and run it off track power. 

Hope this gives you some idea of how this board would be used.

John - this looks great!  Do you know when they will be available?  I'm trying to hold off upgrading an MTH steamer until this is available.

I'm getting a few hand assembled, so I'll have a limited quantity.  For volume, I have to wait until I can get an opening at my assembly house, they're very busy lately.  I had to fight tooth & nail to get a run of my existing projects as I'm running out of everything.  I'm going to try to have enough assembled to hold me until I can get a volume run.

I agree about the screw clamp terminal blocks.  While I use them in my projects (Phoenix, single level, through hole solder mounting, 2.54mm)  they can get pricey, and yes, sometimes they just don't fit the area assigned.  These are 90 degree wire-to-pin but are basically the only I've found in this small pitch.  I buy them from Mouser.

That aside, I'm terribly interested in this board as a possible solution to my smoked TAS EOB sensor board in a 3rd Rail steam locomotive.  Yes it took out the R2LC it was drawing off power from as a tether lead in the tender was soldered directly to the receiver 5V 50ma pin.  Yes there is a bracket from the loco frame that the sensor board is screwed to but the adhesive mounted actually sounds and looks a little safer electrically and mechanically after thoroughly examining this loco install. 

Good to see when this is available.  Looks good!

I doubt this will replace the EOB board, that board has a different purpose.  I suppose I could reprogram one to just pass the tach pulses, I believe that's what the TAS board does, though I've never really tracked it down.

If you need a TAS sensor, hit my profile email, I have one.  I just took it over and tested it to make sure it actually reads the tach strip. 

If you happen to be testing one of these, note that the 5V DC goes on the BLUE and BLACK, the RED is the output.  I had my doubts, so I checked with a meter before powering it.  Good thing I did, as I was thinking that RED and BLACK would be power and BLUE the output.  One has to wonder why the non-standard color codes, I guess to thwart people from knowing what's going on.

Which color is 5V and which is Ground?  G

For TAS or my board George?  For my board, if you flip it over, you see the three connections have labels on the back, red is 5V, green is chuff out, and black is ground.

The odd colors I spoke of was the TAS sensor, they used what at least I consider odd colors for the connections.

"If you happen to be testing one of these, note that the 5V DC goes on the BLUE and BLACK"

I thought he meant is the TAS blue or black ground? I'm betting on black...

Yes, the +5V is the BLUE, and the ground is the BLACK.  Before I powered it up, I verified the connections to the LM358 on the board to make sure I wasn't connecting them to the wrong place.

Here's the chuff generator installed in a Lionel M1a.

My apologies for muddying the waters here with the TAS EOB.  My comments were more to the mounting methods as the glass boards epoxied or super-glued to the motor looked a better idea than the mechanical method used in the EOB application.  More solid than the brass leaf bent to approximate the proper location and the four 1mm machine screws.  A solid mount, set the gap for the sensor, then solder in place.  Solid!  And, a method of mounting the sensor remotely if needed.  

I'm watching this development closely.  I've been holding off upgrading any more steam locomotives because I really hate magnets and reed switches.  Looks like a good ERR accessory!

The deed is done, at least the main PCB.  Here's one that is all wired up after programming to test.  As this is my "first article" test, I have the optional ground light output wired for testing as well.  I didn't expect any surprises, and I didn't get any, they work like a champ.  One improvement I made when I went to production is to cut the thickness of the PCB from .062" to .031", no reason to have any more thickness than necessary for the board.

Next step is to work out the kinks in making the mounting plates.  I know what I need, and I can make them by hand, but I need a better method of making them in a bit higher volume.  Here's what I'm trying to make, this one is made from .062 fiberglass using a Dremel tool.  It's about .4" wide and .6" long.  This is glued to the motor as a mount for the chuff generator board.  If more spacing is needed, they're just stacked up on the flat side.  The radius of the concave cut is about 1 1/4", splitting the difference between the Mabuchi and larger Pittman motors. 

I'm looking for ideas for tooling or materials to do this simply.  I'd love to find some flat stock with the concave curve already in one side, then I could just cut it to length!

BTW, this is how they're actually manufactured, they do panels of them to minimize the amount of handling.  The individual boards are V-scored at each end, so you just break off the excess fiberglass and you have a board.

GRJ,

It looks like the optical sensor has to be soldered in by the user. Is this so?

I assume that that allows for adjusting the gap.

What are you using for the tach tape?

When might you have these available for sale?

For Mabuchi motors with the flywheel pretty much the same diameter as the motor, I can solder them in before shipment as they're flush to the board.  Those situations require you to space the board out to maintain the 1mm spacing from the flywheel.  For Pittman motors, the sensor has to be soldered during installation as the spacing has to be adjusted after the board is secured to the motor.

The tach tapes are just printed on gummed shipping label.  The actual number of stripes is non-critical as you calibrate the chuffs after the board is mounted and powered up.  I plan on shipping a tach strip with each board.

As for when they'll be for sale, I need to come up with a way to generate that concave mount I mentioned in the previous post.  That's the one that mates with the motor and is glued on.  If you need additional spacing, I'm going to have an assortment of thicknesses of material to stack up to establish the spacing of the sensor.  Again, for Pittman motors with a flywheel that's somewhat smaller than the motor diameter, you'll only use the single mounting board and adjust the sensor spacing during installation.

A 3D printer came to mind when I first saw the concave mounting piece. I know you probably don't have one (I don't either) and I have no idea what the printing costs would be, but the prices on the are coming down. Might be something to start thinking about for the future with all the stuff you make and the mods to the trains you do. I know the software and 3D drawings won't be easy, but the concave piece may not be to hard and possibly a good starter project?

Just thinking out loud here...

A 3D printer would probably work, but the expense of making several hundred of these would break the bank!  I have a full plate now, a 3D printer is not in my immediate plans.

John,

There are thick double sided tapes available that would work just great.

Ron

Can you find an off the shelf extrusion of plastic that has the correct dimensions, or find someone to make one for you?  Then you could buy sheets in bulk and then cut them out as needed.

Kind of what I thought. I imagine after the initial printer cost the printing costs would be way up there and probably even worse that ink jet printers.

Our friends from Evergreen or Plastruct probably have nothing that would come close to what you are looking for?

Nothing else comes to mind that would be easy?

Ron H posted:

John,

There are thick double sided tapes available that would work just great.

Ron

Actually, I have about every thickness, but they're much too pliable to do this job properly. The sensor has to be secure.  My prototypes were done using double-sided foam tape, and they were very sensitive to pulling on the wires and changing the spacing.

C&O Allie posted:

Can you find an off the shelf extrusion of plastic that has the correct dimensions, or find someone to make one for you?  Then you could buy sheets in bulk and then cut them out as needed.

I've looked, but nothing jumped out at me.  Having someone make them really runs up the cost quickly for small quantities. 

rtr12 posted:

Kind of what I thought. I imagine after the initial printer cost the printing costs would be way up there and probably even worse that ink jet printers.

Our friends from Evergreen or Plastruct probably have nothing that would come close to what you are looking for?

Nothing else comes to mind that would be easy?

Nothing pops up looking at their product line.  I discounted the 3D printing, don't have the printer, and from all I have researched, it would be pretty high cost.

I took the "low tech" solution for the first bunch of them. I used the Dremel with a reinforced cutoff wheel. It's about the right diameter, so I just clamped a piece in my vice and ran it up and down sideways. Surprisingly, it worked way better than I thought it would. so I suspect for small quantities that's what I'll do. I whacked out about 30 of them in around 10-15 minutes, for the quantities I see needing, that may be the best option.

Now I just have to write instructions and assemble some kits. 

The 'low tech' may be the best solution, 30 in 10-15 minutes doesn't sound too bad. Especially if they are not all that difficult to make. 

That's my current plan.