Super-Elevation of Curves - Need Ideas - (Pics Added 7-24)

Art,

 

We had super-elevated curves on the Independent Hi-Railers, Mid-West Division modular layout and it worked pretty well on the biggest curves. One word of caution; make sure you provide a VERY LONG transition into and out of the super-elevation! Why? Because very long 21" passenger cars, double stack well cars, and auto rack cars require a very long transition, do to the twisting effect.

Thinking the wire is the easiest way Art, and will be really consistent in height. Had some on an HO layout and as Hot Water says the transitions are the trickiest parts. Really tough are back to back hi-speed "S" curves!

Art,

 

Try 1/8" basswood.  Provides a consistent and prototypical 6" elevation, you can see the tilt in the cars/engines as they pass through the curve but it is not so high that cars tip over.  I tried wire once but the elevation wasn't as noticeable plus the elevation through the curve wasn't consistent.  As HW mentions, I start the elevation about 6" in from the start and end of the curve.  My curves are O-88.5, O-80 and O-71.5.  I occasionally run 21" passenger cars and large articulated steam engines on each track and have never had an issue.

 

Dave

Surprisingly, it isn't the "large articulated steam locomotives" that give the most trouble with transitioning into/out of super-elevation. It is the large 4-8-4s, and 2-10-4s/2-10-2s, or UP 4-12-2 models that twist and bind up, or derail.

Art the N scale roadbed should be a great height. Anything about 1/8" thick, like paint stir sticks from Lowes or Home Depot....and they're free

Hot water is completely right (again) in that long rigid frame locos will find problems with uneven superelevation transitions.  In my case, the PRR J1 2-10-4 is the best at finding track and switch issues.  A big articulated has enough flex in the front engine connection that it behaves like a Mikado on superelevation.

 

I used 1/8" square balsa strips under the outside rail to superelevate my curves.  Using a sanding block, the transitions into the curves were made at least 3 or 4 feet long.  Personally, I wouldn't attempt to superelevate a curve sharper than about O63.

 

"We had super-elevated curves on the Independent Hi-Railers, Mid-West Division modular layout and it worked pretty well on the biggest curves…"

"It is the large 4-8-4s, and 2-10-4s/2-10-2s, or UP 4-12-2 models that twist and bind up, or derail…."

 

The rigid wheelbase on my 4-8-4 didn't like those super elevated curves, but everything else, including my 22" long Lionel Autoracks, performed well and looked great doing it.

I don't remember how much elevation we had, 1/8 seems a bit high, but I'm sure Dave & Bob know what they're talking about.

Go for it Art!

We have super elevated curves on the NJ Hirailers layout on the large curves with extended transition. The radius of the curve should dictate the height of your super elevation. We have had no problems with Big Boys and other large engines derailing or binding up. The entire helix is super elevated and works extremely well. Four Big Boys ran around it quadruple headed.......

I helped do the track work on a couple of nice HO layouts. Superelevation was created by using .020 styrene strips in short pieces (4-5 ties), with .010 being used for transition. I know that may not be enough elevation for O gauge, but the idea worked very easily.

 

It doesn't take much to create the "look" you might be after. Based on my HO experience I might try .050 on O gauge and see if I got what I wanted, and then transition into and out of my final choice.

I just shimmed mine with some thin cardboard, increasing/decreasing the layers a bit from start to finish of the curve. Transition is always good. Then I snugged up the track (I used screws), then ballasted it. The cardboard, of course, is very firmly fixed in place by all this.

 

Not rocket surgery.

 

Photo from 3 - 4 years ago. Tracks with locos are superelevated 072 (Curtis sectional) - done around 1990, so, pretty stable (unlike my ballast...). I just eyeballed the elevation. 

 

I am using 1/6" x 1/4" x 24" basswood from MicroMark. For a transition, I use a 37" straight with 18.5" elevated. The straight is attached on both sides at one end of the track, one screw to the "inside" @ 18.5" and one more screw at the end.

 

I have used this on 0120, 0128, 0138, 080-072-080, and 089-080-089 combo curves. This is only 3" of scale elevation and yet you still see the rolling stock "roll-into" the curves.

Keeping with that wire thought.

For just a couple of transitions, you could cut up a cheap tip cleaner for welding or a similar, cheap, wire gauged tool (works on small gauges) Good hobby and music shops carry gauged wire too. That might be better for big jobs. Its longer and fatter. There might even be some old used strings you can "have" at a music store

 

Do you have any popcicles? You should, its hot enough! Stock up on lumber? 

 

I tried 1/8 wire and I thought it looked like a little too much.  So I tried a thinner wire, maybe an #18 that is just a little over a 1/16 of an inch.  It doesn't look too bad to me.  You can notice it, but it doesn't dominate.

 

Here are a couple pictures, what do you think?

 

 

Art

Chugman,

 Its hard to tell so I sure wish I could see it in person.

But I can see it. I think you could also go higher if you like.

I agree, it is hard to notice the transition.

Eric - I have admired this scene of yours and would like to know how much elevation you put on yours?  And what did you use?  Thanks, Art

Art

 

I used real stiff 3/16" clothesline.

 

Clem k

 

 

 

Clem - Thanks for the info and especially the step by step pictures.  Looks really good.

 

Art

Art,

Jefferson owner and builder of the High Plains Route model railroad explained to me the use of heavy card stock or something similar as seen in these pre-ballasted detail shots of the curve in the above image.

As to the amount of elevation I need to ask Jefferson.

You can see the stepped up card stock building the elevation.

Looking from a different angle this process is very precise but doesn't require exotic bench work like the Colorado Midland Model Railroad used dating from the 1940's

Those are tremendous photos and great models,Eric.

When I did my first super elevation I used N gauge cork roadbed.  That was a mistake because it was too steep,even in transition.  Based on a recommendation of one of our contributors here,I ripped out the cork and went with wire,16 or 18 gauge.  I don't remember which.  With a nice transition,I have had no problems running my Pennsy steam.   I appears that there are numerous solutions to super elevation and over the years much has been written about it.

 

Norm

Bob Meyer sent this to me after reading this discussion.

"I saw a discussion on the OGR forum about super elevating curves so here is what I do.  The attached photo shows 60” and 64”  radius curves on my layout with 1/16” (a scale 3" super elevation.  I glue styrene shims under every other pair of ties on my Atlas flex track before fastening it down starting at the beginning of the easement curve with a gradual increase in thickness through the curve easement to a maximum of 1/16” at the start of the full curve.  For me this gives just enough of the look I want without causing operational problems.   The maximum used on the prototype was about 6” and that was on high speed curves.  It is all related to degree of curvature and maximum speeds, stuff we can ignore for our purposes.  I would not do more than a scale 4” so as to avoid operating problems.  Raising the outside rail must be done smoothly and gradually.

Bob"

 

Art, I agree with Adriatic, it is too shallow.

Here is another photo showing a freight train on my 64” radius curve with the outside rail raised a scale 3” (1/16&rdquo.   The track next to it has the same amount of elevation.  I tried to keep the camera level crosswise so as not to change the appearance of the angle.  Photos not taken with the camera level will exaggerate or lessen the tilt of the train.  It is best to see how it looks in person.  My mountain district has slow to medium speed trains so this is about the right amount of super elevation for that type of operation.  Each person should decide for themselves what looks right to them but 6” (1/8&rdquo was the max on the prototype.  3 to 4 inches is more typical.

Bob

Thanks, Eric.  I am leaning toward 1/16" myself as I have a very short distance to start my elevation after a crossover switch that is close to where this curve starts.  In the past I have had more elevation and didn't have any operational problems, but I wasn't pushing it then with 21" cars and longer engines.

 

Art

Operations is always a good point.

  I think any issues would be minimal on pizza cutters.

The flange issues might may grow in scale.... 

.... You can read that more than one way, and its still right. 

I never measured my super elevation from rail to rail. I should do that. I do know I used the thicker of the two clothes line that the hardware store had. But then again I put the line under the edge of the roadbed not under the rail. I just went by what looked right.

 

Clem

Art:

 

I went and took a micrometer to the O.D. of some 14 gauge wire, and it varies between 0.107 and 0.113" (four different colors, all the same manufacturer). 

 

After building my modules with 14 gauge easements, and running easements on the original part of my HO railroad, I've decided to give up on them.   My new HO extension does not have a single easement, and I do not miss them. 

 

Advantages:

 

• Looks good.
• Looks good.
• Looks good.

 

Disadvantages:

 

• For you, there probably will not be many, as you do not run steam.  But since you are running modern era, long cars may not like it.   I never had any problems with GGD 85' passenger cars, even on O-104 curves.  Your experience may be different. 

• If you intend on running steam, or opening up your layout to friends of yours that run steam, you may run into issues.  On the IHMD, we had most of our problems on one set of curves which were O-120, O-112, and O-104.  I personally did not have any issues with super-elevation except when one of my northerns decided to shed its driver equalization springs.  Some steam require some tweaking to get them to run on super-elevation.  I've had to do that to all of my A class northerns in HO (take the cover plate off, file down the bottom of the driver bearing on the lead axle so it sits flat when on a piece of level granite).

• If you layout is built lower, and you "helicopter railfan" the railroad, you won't really notice the super-elevation.  The IHMD modules were leveled at 36", and unless you crouched down to eye level, or took photographs "trackside" as opposed from the top of a small hill, it was not that noticeable.  In my opinion, more trouble that it is worth. 

• The smaller the radius, the more problems you will have.

 

 

Here are some videos.  The first video does not have super-elevation.  The track is O-91 on the track that it is going around. 

 

 

This one does.  The track is O-136.

 

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

 

 

 

 

 

Call me a dingleberry but I thought I once saw an article here on OGR of someone claiming that the reverse of super-elevation, raising the inner rail, can help prevent "stringlining". No clue when it was posted or who posted it.

I remember that and I think it was applied to a helix with sharp curves. Sharp curves are the bane of model railroading and tend to exacerbate problems. Super-elevation on the prototype, even significant height difference, doesn't introduce the same level of problems you can have super-elevating tight model railroad curves. This is because in the model context, you have rigid frames, few (if any) easements, and stiff springing (and lack of equalization) on trucks. The big thing is that if you want super-elevation, you need VERY broad curves to minimize problems -- the sharper the curve, the higher the probability of having issues.

Art I am one who agrees that it needs to have more elevation. Currently I don't notice much elevation.

 

No need to worry about string lining if your cars are weighted properly. If NOT, your train make-up needs to be in compliance...meaning heavy cars up front. Super elevating curves helps eliminating string lining anyway.  

 Tock, click click click click, tock, click click click click, tock?????

 

I made a mistake in flagman's shack position and so last night I had to super elevate my Super O to get my Hudson's pilot to clear the base.

 Not one to worry. nor in need of caution here. I just crammed a length of solder under it and tried the "smart" idea for myself.

 

  Success!