Super S gauge sale at Charles Ro 11/15/14.

Wow! I can't make it but will try to order online.  Was thinking of picking one of these up.

Good Day Marty,

 

 

Will there be any sales on their American Flyer Diesel Locomotives?

 

Regards, 

Frank

Frank, I have to go to the store in the morning and I will get any information from Charlie.

Frank, I just asked Chuck your question and he said to go to the website this weekend as he will also have several diesel locomotives on sale for great prices for those who are unable to attend.

 

Marty

Don't need any locos but I could use about a dozen 57 foot reefers if he has them? .........DaveB

You must have missed the memo, Dave. 

 

https://ogrforum.com/t...s-mechanical-reefers

 

The 57' mechanical reefers are cancelled.

 

Rusty

Hi Marty, 

 

Thanks for checking as well as giving us the heads up!

 

Best Regards, 

Frank

I too will also take a dozen 57' reefers...

Ben.

Just checked the website and the price shows as $599.00 ?

 

Gunny

Gunny, the other price will show up when the open house starts and also be available Sunday on the website.  I am an O gauge guy but have worked on the AF Y-3 locomotive and it is one fantastic locomotive with all the extras.

 

I grew up in the old AF days and am very happy for the S gauge guys today.  They now have some great products to purchase.

It would be hard to beat those prices he had on the diesels at York.

 

Roy

Marty,

        Thanks for the info!

Gunny

This is a good news / bad news scenario...

 

Nice to get good pricing, but these blowout prices obviously mean they overproduced or there isn't enough demand. When you add this to the Reefer cancellation and I really don't think you will see much in the way of new scale S pieces from Lionel anytime soon. If you like these models you better grab them now.

 

This is exactly the scenario that I was worried about 4 yrs. when I wanted to get into S. All of the promise of having O Gauge Jr. on two rail track is basically gone now IMHO.

 

Thanks for the tease Lionel.

Jonathan,  you are wrong.  Charles Ro is not a small town dealer.  He buys things in the hundreds.  People are lucky who buy these locomotives as they can benefit from his buying power and get great deals.  You have been in the S hobby for four years.  Charles Ro has been doing great deals for many years. 

 

I do not think any train maker overproduces any more.  In the economy today that would not be good business. 

 

For any maker of trains to cancel an item is not unusual.  It hurts when it is something you want.  I am in O gauge and was very upset when MTH canceled the New Haven I-5 Hudson.  Things happen.  If I was ever going to consider any other gauge, it would be S.  Today's S gauge products are great. 

Umm, no, I don't think I am Marty. Lionel admitted to overproducing both the Challengers and the Y3's. Hence Charles Ro who has the sweetest of all sweetheart deals being a distributor and a dealer gets to blow them out. BTW, he isn't even first to the party here. Other dealers have been offering them recently for similar prices. So there is more supply than demand. Basic econ 101. That's what Lionel has been quoted as saying... Sluggish sales. You make the assumption that I became aware of Charles Ro 4 years ago. That assumption is incorrect. I have been buying from Ro since the 80's.

 

If people want to think that this is just a great sale and everything is rosey in S with Lionel that's their prerogative. I will eat my hat if you see another scale steam engine from Lionel in the next 5 years though.

 

This doesn't hurt me personally. I really wanted to do S. Tried for 4 years to make it work for me. But I saw this coming a couple years ago and changed direction. I didn't buy a Y3 before and I won't now either. I could care less about the price. I was concerned with their commitment to producing S products. I never believed they were serious about it. If they would have come out and said "Our plan is to bring you a new steam engine every 3 years, and new diesels every 1-2 years going forward" I would gladly pay full RETAIL for everything. I'm not going to abandon a basement full of O gauge trains for what we have now in S which is a whole bunch of uncertainty.

 

That's obviously just my opinion from my point of view, but don't tell me I'm wrong when they are still trying to sell Challengers and Y3's that have been sitting on shelves for a couple years now. Heck there are still TMCC Pacifics and Mikados sitting on shelves. Andy Edleman told me that they like to have all units of a model sold out at MTH in the first 90 days after they arrive. That's what they consider success.

 

 The market just isn't there to support the cost of the tooling IMHO. That's probably why you see them focusing more on traditional Flyer at a lower price point.

 

The Y3's are fantastic engines. This is a great price. Charles Ro is a great dealer to work with. IF someone wants one then this is the time to buy for sure. For me though, I need more than just a sale on one engine to get me motivated.

 

 

"This is exactly the scenario that I was worried about 4 yrs. when I wanted to get into S. All of the promise of having O Gauge Jr. on two rail track is basically gone now IMHO."

 

   It might be gone for Lionel stuff but there's still enough American Models, SHS, Des Plaines, etc.  stuff floating around to build a layout. One would have to work with what is available instead of what they might wish were available but S is still possible and a downsizing for many still might be a good move for the future  if smaller layout spaces are in the retirement plans? ......DaveB

For what it's worth, a source I spoke with at S fest who seems to be "in the know" with MTH said that the 2015 catalog should list most all the rolling stock pieces that SHS did (Don't know about passenger cars). He has been right about other things (Lionel's starter set berk) and has many connections in the industry so I am hopeful.  

 

• Ben 

I sincerely hope you are correct Marty. I want S to expand and be successful. I would like nothing more. It is my favorite sized model train. I just don't think it will happen anytime soon. I've been right so far on most of my predictions regarding product releases, but I'd happily eat crow if I'm wrong this time. I was a beta tester for Lionel so I have my share of inside info that I can't share just like you do.

 

What I can say is as someone newer to S who tried to transition from O there was not and is not enough commitment and product to satisfy me from any of the vendors. I'm not about to sell everything off, commit to S, only to find that new products only come every couple years. That won't cut it for me personally. Some people are perfectly happy with what has been made and I applaud them for that. But for myself, and I suspect others, there just isn't enough incentive to switch scales completely. That's all I was trying to say.

 

PS. Port Lines hobbies has several Mikes and Pacifics in stock. All MIB: http://64.251.10.24/~worldofw/...9107/category=lionel

 

MIB or NIB?  I feel the future of S is good. 

I was told they are all brand new old stock. Full price, but if someone wanted one they have quite a few considering how old they are.

Not to further drive the discussion but I went thru selling all the 2 rail O that I had.  Two primary reasons...i didn't have the room for the curves to look right and I didn't get the "distance" perspective I was looking for.
When I went, I went all in.  Looked the other way, felt the pain and sold off stuff I never dreamed I'd sell.
I also knew exactly that I potentially limited my ability to buy things I might like, like a CF7.  So I bought what I thought useful to my needs and am satisfied.  This speaks and works specifically to my needs and uses, and only that.
Do I drool at other scales?  You bet!
I owned at one time 30 Atlas DCC w/ QSI sound.  Quite foolish.
I became disenchanted when QSI announced various upgrades but Atlas O continued their old sound recordings.
At $500 bucks a pop, that's unacceptable. 
I say all that to say that each of us has our perspective, no one is right or wrong.  You do what works for you.
I am 60 years old.  I have finally built the layout I started scratching out in 1982.
Had an open house Sunday and had 22 folks thru.
Great way to promote S, most of these folks had never seen scale S.

"I am 60 years old.  I have finally built the layout I started scratching out in 1982.
Had an open house Sunday and had 22 folks thru.
Great way to promote S, most of these folks had never seen scale S."

 

     Hi John, Wish I could have been there (also wish I was 60 again). Do you have any photos of the open house posted online? .DaveB 

Hi Dave,
I didn't take any cuz I was too busy yakking...
However, you can see my layout in Oct. S Scale Resource, a new online S mag.
I've made some changes/improvements since that article.
I'm going to build  3x8 switching layout to show S scale at an upcoming local show.

"I didn't take any cuz I was too busy yakking...
However, you can see my layout in Oct. S Scale Resource, a new online S mag.
I've made some changes/improvements since that article."

 

    Hi John, Great article, the layout looks very neat. I like the concept and plausible history. Thanks for posting the link, I don't know how I missed seeing that article when it came out. Do you have a track plan posted anywhere, I'd like to see how it all fits together.....DaveB

So, was anyone tempted by this sale?

I have tried to support Lionel so they will continue to build new S product, but I also heard directly from Mike Reagan that the market just wasn't strong enough to build the tooling for the new 57' reefer.

 

I have purchased a U33C on sale at the Lionel store a few years ago, I got my Challenger from Trainworld about 2 years ago, and I also bought my SD70ACE's from Nassau a month or so ago, I must admit I couldn't pass up that price.

 

I also just bought a Y3 at the Lionel Sale in Concord NC, another deal I couldn't say no too, it was $450, because the box was banged up. The Y3, that is just fine.

 

Hopefully more new rolling stock will come from MTH, and hopefully more new railroaders will discover S.  But I think for S trains to flourish we need complete sets available for purchase.

Aflyer

Dave, please email me offline and I'll get something to you.
johnalbeezerothreeatyahoo.com

Aflyer...

 

Did you ask Mike if he/Lionel felt that part of the lack of interest is that the catalog shows that reefer on wheel sets that everyone knows are unusable?  

 

Ben 

I had Flyer S from grade school to high school. The problem with the future of S ( while a temptation ) is that you can only cut the model railroad pie into so many slices, and S is way too late into the game and the economics lurking behind the confusion in O over what will be built versus what not will be built.considering O is more popular than S..does not bode well for the future of S in terms of carving out a larger slice of the hobby pie.

To me this is MTH's attempt to diversify its market like Lionel did with NASCAR, sort of a "don't put your eggs in one basket" philosophy. This is telling as O is larger in popularity than S. I think MTH cancelling a run is a testimony that this foray into S was a tactical error in terms of a mishandled marketing.

Who is MTH targeting with marketing? The very small community of the already converted? No wonder the reefers were cancelled. They need to make realistic equipment and sell the concept of a slightly larger scale to the HO market in my opinion. Theres a larger audience as the population of boomers in O is shrinking. To me, the concept of S has to be marketed beyond the models themselves...thats what Gilbert did. I dont see any evidence of this. MTH seems to think it will sell itself. That seems ridiculous a strategy in this marketplace as one could dream up. 

 

Maybe I missed the memo, but what S item(s) did MTH cancel?

 

The 57' mechanical reefer debacle was Lionel's.

 

Rusty

Another senior moment...terminal thread confusion or a hard wiring issue in my neurons. Still..valid but moot points about S scale. LOL.

Well, I'm going to have to disagree for the time being. 

 

Even in the glory days of the 1950's, Gilbert was second banana to Lionel.  All the kids on my block had Lionel, except for the weird kid at the south end of the block...

 

If it Gilbert was top dog back then, this would be the SGR Forum and it would be O gaugers crying in their smoke fluid.

 

With the former SHS line, MTH has a strong foundation to build on, rather that trying to reinvent themselves each time as Lionel seems to be doing.  At least so far, MTH hasn't tried reinventing the S wheel.

 

It's still early days for MTH, and slower than I would have expected or liked, but MTH hasn't deviated too far from the SHS model.  We do mourn not including scale wheelsets along with the hirail on the freight cars and we're still waiting on how the F3's turn out.

 

However, the true test for MTH will be if they can maintain a stable product schedule, along with once the former SHS stuff is all released and they venture out with new S tooling.

 

Rusty

"Another senior moment...terminal thread confusion or a hard wiring issue in my neurons. Still..valid but moot points about S scale. LOL.'

 

   or just a bit early and it will happen soon :>    I really have my doubts that Lionel or MTH are the ones to develop the S scale market as their O lines make S a conflict of interest for them in a way. Many O modelers would downsize to S if there was sufficient product because O is just too big for a nice layout in most homes. I think S should be marketed to HO scalers but then the big dogs Athearn, Bachman, etc. would be reluctant to build S models cause that would draw from their current pool. The solution seems to be for a company that is not vested in O or HO to become the S scale king. SHS and American Models got started on that path but faltered so it apparently needs to be a company with staying power as well as vision, or perhaps a company like Weaver could go from small fish in the big O pond to big fish in the small S pond?   :> ......DaveB

That's the corker...  With the exception of Gilbert in ye olden days, there never really has been a "Big Fish" in this little pond of ours.  And that pond is surrounded by cottage industries, not big factories.

 

Sure, Lionel keeps sticking it's toe in the pond, but must think it's stocked with piranha's.  MTH is on a learning curve.  Believe it or not, but S Scalers have been bugging MTH to get into S for years.  They just didn't expect it to be by buying SHS, which I'm pretty sure wasn't an easy sale.

 

The simple fact is, anybody manufacturing trains in other scales is going to run into conflicting interests if they start making S.  Even Weaver.  I could hear they O Gaugers saying "Why are they doing S? They could be making more O..."

 

While the HO manufactures seem to do pretty well marketing to different scale: Atlas O, HO, N; Athearn HO & N; Walthers HO & N; Kato HO & N; Bachmann G, O/On30, HO, N.  All it takes is deep pockets.  None of the S manufactures in the past 30 years are anywhere near the size of these companies.

 

S has grown (yes, it has...) over the past 30 years on the financial risk and dedication taken by individuals, not big companies.

 

American Models has had the largest variety of equipment available, some of which was "helped along" by S Helper Service before they went independent.  And S Helper Service was making resin/epoxy kits under a different name before that.

 

When S Helper Service officially entered the pond, they raised the bar with both product and customer relations.

 

While S Scale America has taken under its wing the efforts of some others that didn't make it.

 

For whatever reason, AM hasn't been able to take full advantage of the S drought of the past few years.  They were caught up in the same situation as SHS and SSA.  It may be financial issues or just the task of sorting through the crates after their tooling came back from China.  I don't know.

 

Rusty

 "Even Weaver.  I could hear they O Gaugers saying"Why are they doing S? They could be making more O..." "

 

    What makes me say weaver is they already build a very nice 57 foot reefer so could turn it into an S scale version to get their toe into the pond. Weaver seems to have more to gain from S than Lionel or MTH since going with S would put Weaver in a dominate instead of under dog position like they are now in O scale. AS for American models I'm waiting for them to make something new so I can buy more from them. Des Plaines made a great run of modern boxcars a few years ago and I bought some of all the versions but they don't advertise them much so I'm not sure how other modelers find them...DaveB

I understand and appreciate you guys tring to make an agrument for someone or some company to make enough scale and Hi-Rail S to satisfy all or your wishes for engine types, rollings stock, accessories, and such, but be honest with yourselves, it just isn't going to happen.

 

There isn't a big enough market and it won't change.

 

We need to be happy with what is being produced and make the most out of it.

I couldn't agree more Bill. If you can be happy with what has already been made then you can be successful in S. If you long for new products then I suggest looking at a different scale. I wish things were different, but that is reality as far as I have seen.