Switches - manual vs powered

My 1st layout 35 years ago was wired switches to my control station. It was a lot of work but worked very well. 25 years ago I built another house and this layout I tried the Del-Air system.  It was a lot easier to hook up as compared to electrical working ones. However after 2 years the manifold that distributed the air to the switches started to crack & leak. Our came the air system & layout.

You have seen my present layout. All manual switches as I can reach them all on my walk around layout. The upper level ones just flip through them with no issues.

Good luck Paul.

I used all Tortoise switches on the main layout. When I expanded on what was more like a shelf. I used caboose  industries ground throws as they were within easy reach. The yard was subject to possible changes which did finally happen so it worked out. I actually like lining up a path of movements by manually throwing turnouts. I actually think you have less derailments as your more hands on.
The Tortoise are the way to go for reliability if you go electric.  They have 2 sets of switches built in to handle relays or lighting. Just a bit of initial work getting them installed. I prefer the out of sight look under the table.

Our layout had all hand-throw (Caboose Hobbies) turnouts for any & all turnouts within reach. Thus, there were only a very few "powered" turnouts/crossovers that were "out of reach" of the operator. Those powered turnouts were operated by under the layout motors, i.e. nothing was visible.

I wired the main platform with all remote command switches (Ross and DZ-2500's).

However, I wired my whole yard entry with manual throws.  I'm standing right next to it, and I decided that I'd be there anyway, and they're 100% reliable.

Different controls for different situations  I use sprung points, full floating points, hand throws and Tortoise.  It all depends on the situation.  Plus I like to walk around the basement with my trains so hand throws work perfectly.

I come from the old school where due to past failures I can not rely on digital dependability.

@Tom Tee posted:

I come from the old school where due to past failures I can not rely on digital dependability.

Tom, real railroads have failures, so I'm just emulating a real railroad with my switch failures.

John,  Your RR is a perhaps one of the best examples of what can be done with modern electronics. Plus your workmanship is a class act.

Watching you flawlessly control a herd of trains running on various levels and differing loops, plus throwing switches on the main for rerouting with one hand held while nursing a cold one is a positive advertisement for digital control.

It's just that I am not there...The contents of my MTH & Lionel tenders and a pair of DCS hand helds and a pair of TIUs are all sold and replaced by onboard battery RC.

Not state of the art like your excellent system but it works for this ol' conventional guy.

Thank you gentlemen for your input.

(Captain) John, your layout was the genesis of my decision that turnouts don't need to be powered. (as well as many more ideas)

GR John, I like what you did with the four way switches for your yard.

Once again, thank you.

Paul

Count me among the advocates for manual switches that are in reach.  It's more like real life, keeps you more engaged in operations, you don't have to worry about switch motors failing, and you save time and money on wiring.  Like others who have posted, I can reach all my turnouts on the layout I'm presently building and they are all manually operated.

-Greg

I would use manual where I can reach and powered otherwise. I'm actually considering pulling the solenoids off of some and converting them to manual.

Bob

I must admit, I'm seriously considering removing the four switch machines from my double-slip switches, they seem to be the most troublesome of my TMCC switch machines.  I don't know if it's the DSS or the switch machines.

As one who only dabbles in three rail  (87% 2 rail - 13% 3 rail),  by observation of difficulties encountered I personally would be reluctant to want to correctly hook up 3 rail 3-way switches or 3 rail double slip switches.

I know when they are needed they are really needed, but I would still look for a work around.

For track supplied electric power,  the early outside third rail was truly the most basic straight forward system.

Had not really thought about powered or manual switches all that much.  I use hand thrown and both types of DZ switch machines. The caboose hand throw pins like to pop out of the point throws from time to time. The DZs work reasonably well but from time to time do not throw all the way on occasion - that always leads to a derailment. Unfortunately one switch is in a location I cannot easily reach and is my most troublesome. Could be related to less than perfect track laying or just simple less than 100% reliability of these devices.

My understanding of the double slip switch is the powered rails need to be powered on and off depending on direction chosen. Seems to me the DZs coupled with a relay would solve this issue.

To be honest, I gave up trying to run my layout flipping switches, I found it too confusing and stressful given the "seconds" I have on my small layout to correct errors. So I set and forget.

That said I have not wired in my AIU to be able to operate a programmed track path. Maybe on the next layout.

Start off slow. Go electric only on those that cannot be reached easily. Go manual on all others. Saves time and money. I on the other hand have 36 Z1000’s all wired even when on layouts edge. That’s just my preference. I like creating routes and can’t be at both switches at the same time. As time goes by you’ll make up your own mind as to enjoyment of how you want to run your layout. I constantly make changes and that keeps my enjoyment high.

On a build with 6 run through passenger station tracks which took aligning 6 switches on each end (12 total) off the mainline and adjacent freight yard to run through a platform, I used a diode matrix.

You can set as many turnouts as necessary for any one track with a single button push.

Dallee Electronics provided a CD booster which effortless snapped all points at once.

May look impressive but not really complicated, just the running of each circuit one at a time from the panel to the turnout(s) involved.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

However, I wired my whole yard entry with manual throws.  I'm standing right next to it, and I decided that I'd be there anyway, and they're 100% reliable.

John, Smart, very smart!       I wish I was as reliable as my Tortoise switch machines.

@Tom Tee posted:

On a build with 6 run through passenger station tracks which took aligning 6 switches on each end (12 total) off the mainline and adjacent freight yard to run through a platform, I used a diode matrix.

You can set as many turnouts as necessary for any one track with a single button push.

Dallee Electronics provided a CD booster which effortless snapped all points at once.

May look impressive but not really complicated, just the running of each circuit one at a time from the panel to the turnout(s) involved.

But what does the panel look like to control the yard?

@romiller49 posted:

Start off slow. Go electric only on those that cannot be reached easily. Go manual on all others. Saves time and money. I on the other hand have 36 Z1000’s all wired even when on layouts edge. That’s just my preference. I like creating routes and can’t be at both switches at the same time. As time goes by you’ll make up your own mind as to enjoyment of how you want to run your layout. I constantly make changes and that keeps my enjoyment high.

While that might be true, if you even think you might want to install under-the-table Tortoise switch machines you should FIRST drill the hole for the throwbar before laying the track. Other switch machine can be added after-the-fact if they mount on top of the layout, but under-the-table ones are a really paint to retrofit later.

If you have a walk around layout, with wireless remote controls, the manual switches will save you some money and eliminate the wiring to install them.

If you have a look around layout with control transformers and conventional control, installing remote controlled switches, and if you have lots of them, a track plan diagram with the switch control switches on the diagram is the best way to go as you can quickly identify the switch that need to be changed and the push button switch on the panel that will operate it.

With my postwar conventional control layout, I can not imagine not having remote operated switches on a track plan diagram control panel with 20 switches, many uncoupling buttons and track section slide switches.  I also can not imagine operating 20 or 31 track switches, with phone or remote control, if I had a 18 v track control system.  The track diagram control panel makes setting a train route easy as well as quick and requires no labeling of switches to know which push button works which train track switch.  There are 11 more switches on another control panel on my layout.  The cost to me for 31 switches was about $5 a pair as they are used, reliable, low profile Marx 1590 metal frog track switches.

Charlie

@bigboy25 posted:

But what does the panel look like to control the yard?

This early shot was taken prior to installation of the diode matrix system.  Shown are 3 d.p.d.t. toggles which provide power to either track.  1 or 2,   3 or 4,   5 or 6.

Red is the passenger line, black is the freight, blue R.E.A and hidden storage, silver engine service and grade up to the coal region.

A single red steady off - push on button was added on each of the six station tracks to facilitate usage.

Below are the freight tracks on the center island portion:

None of these tracks are shown on the passenger terminal schematic.

I like operations and my layout is designed to operate with 4-8 people.   The concept is a section of mainline with a division point (very compressed) yard and 3 towns.    There are some passing sidings in each town and many industries.    Mainline trains come through and set off and pick up cars in the yard, also since it is a division point, they change locos and cabooses.   Locos are made  up in the yard and are sent out to the towns to deliver cars the mainline trains brought to the  yard and to pickup cars that go back to the yard to be placed in east or westbound mainline trains.   We use walk around control and the operators follow their trains along

My plan in the beginning both for ease of construction, and cost, was to automate only the mainline switches for through tracks (passing sidings0 and make everything else manual.   I  use caboose Industries ground throws for the manual switches and twin coil machines for the powered ones.    The powered ones can be controlled from a main dispatcher panel, or from local panels near them.

I did  use diode matrices for my staging tracks.

I started with all manual, soon found that distracting for some applications.  Now i have a mixture of dz1000 machines on the main to select routes. Caboose ground throws on infrequently changed track or sidings and three switches with my version of spring loads for my return loops.  By that i mean i run a thin wire from the throw bar to a small eye loop from a hook and eye connector.  The wire then hangs below the table and is weighted with just the right number of washers to hold the rails in place but permit the lightest cars to move the rails when passing.  Ross switches move so smoothly this has worked flawlessly for 15 years.  I dont use tmcc to control the dz1000 switches, the controls are located on the table near the action as my layout is linear making a central panel moot.

Manual throws, Caboose Industries.  A couple of different models, the 208S maybe the better choice. 

My two cents worth ... from a retro-traditional hobbyist/operator ...

Other contributors to this thread operate more sophisticated layouts than my modest 15x19 L-shaped O-gauge three rail Lionel tubular track layout. I like the retro look of Lionel tubular track and switches and their controllers (an influence dating back to my boyhood involvement with trains). For that reason I installed Lionel O42 tubular track and switches with a traditional control panel at the "angle" of the L.

I toyed with the idea of buying and installing Lionel FasTrack and switches with CAB-1 control for activation through a SC2 device, but chose the other path; mostly because of the expense.

My layout has "too-tight" aisles around the perimeter, so manual switches aren't readily accessible there - except for ONE switch near the control panel; IMHO, not enough to make an exception to the "all RC" pattern.  I installed eleven Lionel and K-Line RC tubular track switches everywhere with switch ID numbers at each switch location and ID numbers of the controllers at the control panel. The anti-derail feature built-in to all the switches anticipates and accomplishes most of the switch-throwing for trains running on all routes; that old-fashioned technology is more effective than I am (at age 82).

A track plan is attached for reference. Also a photo of the control panel.

All the best to those who are masters of current technology ...

Mike Mottler   LCCA 12394
mottlermike10@gmail.com

mot