TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SMOKE UNIT

Looks like he ran it dry once. Anybody who has looked at that engine should not have missed that issue. Ive gotten over using smoke for the most part because it requires too much attention and fussing. When the kids come to see the layout I'll get em all smoking but at shows and everything else I dont even bother. Its too easy to get to talking to people and forget to fill er up and then you cn have really problems.  Ive had a fair number of repairs come thru that had destroyed boards due to an overheated smoke element from lack of smoke.

Mmm missing that is a schoolboy error!

That's ridiculous. 

Rod Miller

Yikes; that's probably the worst I have seen, and I have seen some bad ones.

Shutting the smoke off when you are not going to keep fluid in it is always good advice.

Rod

Thanks guys for your input and comments, what amazes me is the customer has had this looked at according to him 4 times, and was told it just needed a tune up (whatever that means) LOL!!. Now it will get the parts it needs, and i will definitely post a video of it performing like it was designed too.

Thanks, Alex

Looks fine to me.

LOL!

Mike R

Alex M posted:

Thanks guys for your input and comments, what amazes me is the customer has had this looked at according to him 4 times, and was told it just needed a tune up (whatever that means) LOL!!. Now it will get the parts it needs, and i will definitely post a video of it performing like it was designed too.

Thanks, Alex

It will probably look more like this I imagine...

YIKES, Reminds me of a K-line engine issue I had a few years back.

ALEX - Do you think that smoke unit burnout is an inherent risk we all take when we need to crank up the voltage to 18-20 to operate Legacy? Curious

Steve

L.I.TRAIN posted:

YIKES, Reminds me of a K-line engine issue I had a few years back.

ALEX - Do you think that smoke unit burnout is an inherent risk we all take when we need to crank up the voltage to 18-20 to operate Legacy? Curious

Steve

Hi Steve 

in my opinion these Legacy smoke units burn up like this for two reasons, first not enough smoke fluid ,and second the batting that's installed from the factory doesn't  absorb smoke fluid. It gets very hard and  dries up. When I purchase a new Legacy engine , first thing i do is change the batting. 

Alex 

Alex M posted:

first thing i do is change the batting. 

Alex 

That works for those of us willing to open these but not everyone has the know how or the experience.  It's unfortunate Lionel doesn't just use the rope wicking from the start but I imagine throwing a pad into the bowl is easier than cutting, wadding, and positioning the rope type at the factory level.

Hi Alex

I think I  have buy your Diesel Train BNSF 788 inn France ??

you can see the picture by OGR

Best Regard

Gerard

MartyE posted:

That works for those of us willing to open these but not everyone has the know how or the experience.  It's unfortunate Lionel doesn't just use the rope wicking from the start but I imagine throwing a pad into the bowl is easier than cutting, wadding, and positioning the rope type at the factory level.

While Lionel may not regularly push on this button, removing the shell/boiler to swap the wadding may also technically have warranty implications for those of us not officially authorized by Lionel to do service (most of us).

-Dave

Alex M posted:

in my opinion these Legacy smoke units burn up like this for two reasons, first not enough smoke fluid ,and second the batting that's installed from the factory doesn't  absorb smoke fluid. It gets very hard and  dries up. When I purchase a new Legacy engine , first thing i do is change the batting. 

Alex 

One more reason Alex, the smoke regulator shorts!   They look worse than that one when that happens, but the smoke is spectacular for around 30 seconds!   They also smell like charred fiberglass for a long time after they're fixed.

Quick video of the engine repaired 

Wow, that was fast!

Glad to see it working again thanks to your work, Alex. That is an awesome engine.

Great work ALEX!!!!

Save this video for when your customer comes back one month from now saying there is no smoke. 

Rod Miller

Better than new!! Nice job, and quick too! 

John, the Legacy unit does not run a reg with the RCMC board, unlike the modular board system.  When I get one of those in TMCC I always change the reg with the smoke parts.   I would be suspect on the RCMC output having hit that.  

Lionel is going back to the better rope wicking.  It is showing up in all the LionChief plus engines.

I know the RCMC equipped ones don't have the separate smoke regulator.  However, they do still have a smoke regulator Marty, it's part of the RCMC.  In any case, the ones that I've seen have been earlier Legacy with the modular boards and the separate smoke regulator.  I suspect the RCMC uses a better circuit than the triac based voltage regulator.

MartyE posted:

Alex M posted:

first thing i do is change the batting. 

Alex 

That works for those of us willing to open these but not everyone has the know how or the experience.  It's unfortunate Lionel doesn't just use the rope wicking from the start but I imagine throwing a pad into the bowl is easier than cutting, wadding, and positioning the rope type at the factory level.

Yes Marty 100 percent correct !!!

Alex 

John,  the RCMC is much better.  I have hit those and found the heater kissing the side of the smoke unit.  When I get one that bad, I want to know the cause before throwing parts at it.   Alex does a good exam to know what the issue was.  He gets those out the door quickly and I would tell anyone with those issues to give aAlex a call

I am a big fan of the recent Legacy smoke units.  I have a few dozen locomotives and pull the fiberglass pad as soon as I get a locomotive and put the Reganized rope wicking in.  I am more than happy with the way they smoke.  

People in our part of the country are lucky to have guys like Alex, Yourself, and George to help out.   I have my plate full doing Charles Ro repairs.  It all gets done.   

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

John,  the RCMC is much better.  I have hit those and found the heater kissing the side of the smoke unit.  When I get one that bad, I want to know the cause before throwing parts at it.   Alex does a good exam to know what the issue was.  He gets those out the door quickly and I would tell anyone with those issues to give aAlex a call

I am a big fan of the recent Legacy smoke units.  I have a few dozen locomotives and pull the fiberglass pad as soon as I get a locomotive and put the Reganized rope wicking in.  I am more than happy with the way they smoke.  

People in our part of the country are lucky to have guys like Alex, Yourself, and George to help out.   I have my plate full doing Charles Ro repairs.  It all gets done.   

Marty my great friend ,that was so nice of you to say !!! Thank you , you are the true ambassador of this hobby 

Alex 

Once the wick dries up and people no longer see smoke, they forget to turn it off. It just keeps on cookin. Done it myself a few times.

A comment about this and other smoke units.

Understand first that I consider imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. No sour grapes from me.

I designed a 400w RoW transformer and it was copied.  I designer 3 color signals for RoW and it was copied.  There are other items on this list of innovations and I'm not patting myself on the back.  Matter of fact last year a manufacturer called me about a board in a competitor's locomotive and was told he had never seen this board before; who made it?  I answered..that would be me.

The point?  When Mike and I designed the TAS smoke unit we put in an electronic thermostat to try to prevent wick damage.  That was 15 years ago.

For all the copying going on and for the simplicity of fixing the smoke unit electronics and all the aggravation the user and the repair person endures, couldn't the smoke units have a thermostat by now???

Lou N

Exactly Doug, it's easy to forget about it and by the time you realize it the damage is already done. That ones typical, ive seen worse when the fan also fails and destroys the boards too. Lou, I think Scott Mann puts a thermostat in his smoke units for this very reason. It's a fairly simple and heap addition to the circuit that would most likely save a lot of money in warrant coverage

Matt Makens posted:

 Lou, I think Scott Mann puts a thermostat in his smoke units for this very reason. It's a fairly simple and heap addition to the circuit that would most likely save a lot of money in warrant coverage

Matt,

Yes he does.  So does Atlas.

Lou N

Ah... I love the smell of burnt fiberglass in the morning!

I purchased many a used locomotives that have the smoke units chard beyond recognition. Cannot believe half of them did not melt the circuit boards. 

First thing I do is I rebuild the smoke units... then ironically turn them OFF!

Lou N posted:

For all the copying going on and for the simplicity of fixing the smoke unit electronics and all the aggravation the user and the repair person endures, couldn't the smoke units have a thermostat by now???

It took some time Lou, but the VL-BB has thermistors in the smoke units to control the smoke heater.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Lou N posted:

For all the copying going on and for the simplicity of fixing the smoke unit electronics and all the aggravation the user and the repair person endures, couldn't the smoke units have a thermostat by now???

It took some time Lou, but the VL-BB has thermistors in the smoke units to control the smoke heater.

Thanks for that update John. Its too easy to overlook. I used a thermistor to a PIC input. There was a PIC output to control a triac. I forget the exact setpoint but those heating elements get really hot. 

Regards,

Lou N

Marty; you mentioned replacing the regulator on the earlier ACRG regulator powered smoke elements, which version of the ACRG do you upgrade to?  Thanks for your time; great info from you, Alex, GRJ and G.  Falcon70

Any TMCC or modular Legacy that is badly burned and has an AC reg for the smoke unit, the reg  should be replaced.  I get to see many of these.  Replace with the reg the engine calls for.  They do go bad.  I must have 20 or more in my parts box.   I use many in a year.  Replacing the reg is a pita as you need to cut, solder and shrink all the wires.   The shrink usually needs to be removed from the new reg so you get the correct wires in the proper position.  While you are doing this job, it is wise to do a continuity test between the serial position on the reg and pin 24 on your R2/R4 board.  This is usually a brown wire.

Good morning all,

 What puzzles me is my customer had this looked at quite a few times, and he was told it just needs a tune up. You can clearly see the batting is original and the resistors look like they're original too. So I'm wondering what they did each time they looked at it, plus he was charged each time it went in for this so called (tune up). What I'm getting at is i feel sorry for him. Well now it's repaired the right way and he can enjoy it.

Thanks to all who participated in this thread,

Alex

Smokes great now Alex. Now you may need this.

Alex,  he got screwed. You and I have both seen a few trains in our day and I have never heard of a train tune up.   I saw  about 5 months ago where a guy sent a non running TMCC Lionel Mohawk to a shop and got it back the same way after they charged him for a driver board, R2, and motherboard.  Ouch.  Turns out it was the Odyssey speed sensor.  It took me a few minutes to find.  He would not give up who did the screw job.  The retail price for his part I put in was $10.00.

I see this situation often where people pay big money and end up in the same situation.    It is not right to do that to someone.

Marty, thanks much for the info; do recall from Lionel training the earlier version regs were not reliable; there were later versions that were to be more reliable; yes a PITA to replace and I mount to the frame for heat sink relief as GRJ recommends; thanks again; Falcon70

Lionel school wants them to be mounted that way.  I threw that out several years ago.  I still spend time in my notes and books of information from school.

The heat dissipation of the traic is what typically kills them.  Supplying power to a 6 or 8 ohm resistor from track power ends up dissipating quite a bit of power in that little TO-126 package.  Mounting to a heatsink of some type makes a huge difference in their power handling capability.