Tender Whistle Question

The transformer is designed with a two-stage whistle switch that routes current through a rectifier and a shunt resistance circuit. If there is not enough current in the track circuit, too much of the current flows through the shunt, reducing the DC component enough that the whistle relay may not hold. It's a delicate balance, well thought out & designed almost 90 years ago, and Lionel made great efforts to get it all to work & be backward compatible, and forward compatible with the introduction of battery horns in 1948, electronic whistles in 1972, and electronic horns in 1973.

Happy New Year Dr Rob! Appreciate ya ,  even the thought of introducing a dc signal while AC is in, makes my pea sized head bleed a little 🔥

@Miggy posted:

the thought of introducing a dc signal while AC is in...

Rob, does load refer to the amount of cars the engine is pulling?

It's the transformer that needs a load on it for the whistle circuitry to function properly.

Larry

So an engine running o the layout with switch lights, passenger lights and 15 cars in consist so the engine labors?

I apologize, for not getting it...... on the test stand it works perfectly, on the layout, it’s feeble... so there is more load on the transformer when it runs the whistle on the test stand?

aporeciate ya

@Miggy posted:

Rob, does load refer to the amount of cars the engine is pulling?

No, current measured in amps.  But a longer train - heavier load will produce the same effect.

@Miggy posted:

I apologize, for not getting it...... on the test stand it works perfectly, on the layout, it’s feeble... so there is more load on the transformer when it runs the whistle on the test stand?

Well, now it might be you're at the other extreme, or, the rectifier has reached the end of its life and needs replacement.  Too much of a load will demand more current through the rectifier(depending on the resistance of the shunt), overheating it and reducing its ability to provide a DC waveform to the track.  It is a balancing act! The resistance of both the shunt and the rectifier vary with heat, the rectifier more so.

Thank you Rob,

Miggy:  A quick precis on how Lionel whistle relays work:

The relay in question was adapted from telephone switching relays.  Like most relays, it requires DC current to operate. 

When you hit the whistle switch, the transformer engages a rectifier.  This works like a solid state diode, converting part of the track AC power to half-wave DC:

The whistle relay has track AC going through it at all times, so the contacts are vibrating at 60 hz but not touching.  When the half wave DC (top center) hits the coil in the whistle relay, the DC signal activates the electromagnet and the whistle sounds. 

The motor in the whistle tender draws roughly the same amount of current as the locomotive.  The transformer boosts the track power to compensate, which is why you'll see the lights brighten when the whistle switch is activated. 

On the bench, the tender motor is running by itself, so will sound loudly and clearly.  On the track, it's competing with the locomotive motor for available current.   So, the whistle works better at higher track voltages. 

In order to run the locomotive at higher voltages without crashing, you need a heavier consist (as Rob mentioned).  In addition, the system can be finicky, and you may need to 'finesse' the whistle switch in order to get the whistle to blow properly. 

If you run the loco and whistle tender under pure DC, the relay will be activated fulltime and the whistle will blow continuously.

Hope this helps! 

Mitch

thanks Mitch! Perhaps hiding one in the switchmans cabin will do.

These old Lionel Engineers made some pretty -- kewl-- stuff

Ya'll are great,

@Miggy posted:

thanks Mitch! Perhaps hiding one in the switchmans cabin will do.

Or do like I did at the museum:  Put one in a station.    

These old Lionel Engineers made some pretty -- kewl-- stuff

That they did! 

Ya'll are great,

Mitch

Miggy,

I had the same problem.  Whether it was because my 1033 transformer is so old, of the 55 feet of track it has to power is too long, or the  engines just pulls too much electricity, trying to get the whistle tender to blow loud without great speed ups and slow downs of the engines was a real problem  And, I didn't want to spend big money or lots of time to try to fix it.  (Life is too short.)

So, you have two very do-able options:

1.  Cheapest Option:  Do what I ended up doing.  Put an insulated (unconnected) little side track in your layout, put your existing whistle tender on it, find the wires inside the tender that make the whistle come on and off when hooked directly to the AC output (not DC) of a transformer, attach wires to those and run your wires down through a hole in the table under or next to the tender, buy a really small cheap used Model 4150 Lionel starter transformer (for as little as $5 or $10), mount it under the train table, wire the constant AC voltage posts to your tender wires, add a momentary on/off switch into the negative (common/neutral) wire, and run the switch back to your control panel with some wire.      Plug the transformer in, set the lever on medium, and you are done.  Whenever you push the switch, the whistle will blow loud and long, and have zero effect on your layout currents or speed of your engines.   If you position the tender in the middle of the layout, the sound is broadcasts evenly, and who cares if it is actually coming from the running train.    Put a few railroad workmen next to the tender, so it creates a diorama of men working on the tender on a sidetrack.     If you prefer, you can just mount the tender itself underneath the train board, so it is out of sight.   Turn the transformer up all of the way to make the whistle blow louder.   

2.  More Expensive Option:  Throw more money at the problem by dropping $75 or more on a whistle shed, to mount in our layout.   Hope that running the whistle shed whistle off of your existing transformer doesn't slow your trains down as well.  (I am pretty sure that someone here will be able to answer that.   If the whistle shed also runs off a DC current thrown from your transformer when you press the whistle button, I would think that it would create a slow-down problem just like a rolling tender.   If it runs off of a constant AC current from your transformer, with an independent switch, then it may still slow down your trains since it is drawing AC voltage  away from the system, unless you have a powerful transformer.)

This is all just from my personal experience, and I am sure others have other good solutions as well.

Mannyrock

Sweet Idea Manny! Thank you very much... FIX number one!...... and have the rail fixit shop close by, Welder guy flashing a good arc....... its own power! Tada.

salute

@Mannyrock posted:

Miggy,  (Life is too short.)

So, you have two very do-able options:

1.  Cheapest Option:  Do what I ended up doing.  Put an insulated (unconnected) little side track in your layout, put your existing whistle tender on it, find the wires inside the tender that make the whistle come on and off when hooked directly to the AC output (not DC) of a transformer, attach wires to those and run your wires down through a hole in the table under or next to the tender, buy a really small cheap used Model 4150 Lionel starter transformer (for as little as $5 or $10), mount it under the train table, wire the constant AC

Mannyrock

cheers

Miggy,

A variant of solution no. 1 is to place a building over the top of the whistle tender after the tender is situated on your layout.   This would in effect create your own whistle shed.

I chose not to do this because I found out you need a pretty big darned building to cover up the tender, and having a big chunky building sitting in the middle of the layout just didn't look good.  A little diorama of workers looks better.

By the way, if you mount the separate little AC transformer under the table, you can also hook up other accessories to it, such as the Atlas Operating Oil Pump (which runs off of either AC or DC), and run a separate accessory on/off switch back to your control board, or just wire it without an on/off switch and have it automatically come on whenever you plug in the little transformer.     You may have to move the transformer lever up a bit for more power, but I really like the idea of not having to fool around with the main transformer just to run these types of accessories.   

Regards,

Mannyrock

3) Slightly more expensive option:  If you shop around, you can find a nice ZW transformer for around $100.  THAT has plenty of vitamins to blow whistles and such... 

Mitch

Ahhhhhhh, Vitamins!!

There we go....... my first lampcord solder and hookup and it was my best attempt to date...... I USE to be “soldering iron” impaired ...... but I am like the little engine that could..... and the Giraffe crew helped......... “Yes Virginia, there IS a Santa Clause” 😜

Attaboy!

Scrounge Question: this 2046W tender was beat up shell ends (iis there a clean repair for that?.... and I did clean the mechanical, and it still drags down on the fan....

Is it possible to tap the fan back up on the shaft, by bracing up the shaft of the armature, by flipping it over on a pliers to support, and the tap the fan further on the shaft with a tiny socket that supports the fan center?

where can I get lamp base..... I did mine with wire and shrinkwrap and lamps that dont fit under the 022 Switch Lanterns.... <Grin>

still working on my stack-O-wood bumper......

That shell and chassis look a loss.  I recommend picking up a cheap MPC tender and transplanting the trucks and innards...

As for the fan, I recommend caution.  Tap the impeller too far down, it'll bind on the whistle body. 

Mitch

salute, thankeee kindly (puts down Maxwells Silver hammer and picks up tiny tap tap tap hammer....)

@Miggy posted:

salute, thankeee kindly (puts down Maxwells Silver hammer and picks up tiny tap tap tap hammer....)

As an FYI, a quick search for 'Lionel tender' on the Bay reveals hundreds of tenders, shells and frames in the under $20 category...

Mitch

I gave up on whistle coal tenders over 30 years ago.  They are expensive and locomotives are way cheaper to buy without coal tenders.  I do not have to keep repairing the dc and whistles in CTs working.  I have bought coal tenders separately and bough a box of junk coal tender shells cheaply.  I have assembled several coal tenders without whistles and build two Vanderbilt CT, shown below, from junked shells.

I bought two cheap, junk Lionel whistles from old coal tenders at train shows.  I installed them, on each section of my L shaped layout, inside two layout buildings with open windows.  They are wired up to 14 volts ac track switch transformer.  I installed push button switches on each side of each control panel.  Each whistle has a different sound, which is nice and no one can tell where the sound is coming from.

I also installed a Bachmann Diesel Horn Shell oil tank, one on each layout section.  These are cheap to buy at train shows.  They also have 14 ac power with push buttons on both sides of both control panels.  The Diesel Horn Shell oil tank has eliminated keeping the high maintenance battery operated diesel horns in the diesel engines.  The batteries are the biggest pain with running down, changing and  buying batteries or recharging them, and leaking in the engine ruining it.

New Addition- Whistle in yellow factory, Diesel Horn in silver Oil Tank

I try to keep things reliable, maintenance free and inexpensive as possible.  The layout mounted whistles and horns meet all these criteria.

Charlie

@Choo Choo Charlie posted:

I gave up on whistle coal tenders over 30 years ago.

I try to keep things reliable, maintenance free and inexpensive as possible.  The layout mounted whistles and horns meet all these criteria.

Charlie

Good Morning Charlie:

I was reading your posts about layouts from years ago, and I appreciate the thoughts. Mitch has helped me getting my carpet layout wired up and exposing me to "Kit Bashing". You and Mitch align with my satisfaction of building myself, and how to make it work. Fun times! I do appreciate a consist that reliably travels the layout without de-rail, u-coupling and working whistles! HA! (Heck, whats a consist?)

Each door i open here in this great group, is like dropping down another rabbit hole. And, I am having fun with what I got... Like having a 69 Chevelle SS in the storage locker, never driving it... OR... dropping in a stroked 350, SS Cragars wheels, Reliable Tranny, Sweet Exhaust, and DRIVE ER Like I STOLE IT..... ha

Me and the grandkids run trains, play with them and they are all in, just like My kids were, and Like Me and my Brother were, and like My Dad and his brother.

So, Compliment to you for taking the time, doing the hard work, documenting and sharing. It helps me get up in the morning... and play with trains!

Salute! (Cheers Elliot and Mitch.. Mark.....miggy

What did you run today?? Thanks to alll the folks that helped..... and the Supervisors....  WTG .see victory lap below

Miggy

Thank you for the kind comments and I am glad you enjoyed some of my posts.  Do it yourself is my family's way from my Dad and brother, both deceased now.  We were always fixing, improving and building things and model trains are just a part for me.  I always think of building something and get more satisfaction building or fixing than just buying.

I enjoyed your video of the train whistling and of course saw the giraffe car.  When my kids saw one of those they had to have one.  Of course I wound up making 6 or so of them from junkers and buying the spare giraffes with the lifting lever.  It is neat to see 6 of them ducking under my bridges and mountain.

Enjoy those grands with the trains as shortly they will discover the electronic games and gadgets.

Charlie

.......cars and girls..... I already feel that loss of “Grandpa coolness “...... life marches on...... grandpa gathers rust on a siding, somewhere, in lionelville

Rob, Manny, Mark, I appreciate all y’all’s help and kindness. Salute

@Miggy posted:

Each door i open here in this great group, is like dropping down another rabbit hole. And, I am having fun with what I got... Like having a 69 Chevelle SS in the storage locker, never driving it... OR... dropping in a stroked 350, SS Cragars wheels, Reliable Tranny, Sweet Exhaust, and DRIVE ER Like I STOLE IT..... ha

Those ducking giraffe cars are really a smile generator Miggy.  😉

My Judy would really say you are her kind of guy !     Back in the day before her first guy and my friend passed, there were many adventures in  their early built up Camaros and Mustangs .   Now you throw in the giraffe stock cars , 😍 !!!  .......her 6 foot stainless giraffes in the living room down to her giraffe soap dispensers in all of our bathrooms would assure you a place in her  ' special forum guy ' slot.  👍

...........I'll  have to remember one of those Giraffe cars for a gift. 🤔

@Miggy posted:

...even the thought of introducing a dc signal while AC is in, makes my...    ...head bleed a little 🔥

You'll love this tip from Lionel, then!