The Barn - A 30 x 50 layout begins

I can't wait to follow the progress.

A lot of O scale will fit in a barn that size!

Congratulations on "The Barn" project. That is the size I am considering and hope you can post interior and exterior photos and construction specs if possible. Mine is still in the future at an unknown date but the boy is finally out of college and hopefully on his way (out of my pocketbook) to a bright future for both of us. Keep posting, Scott.

If I were to do it again, I'd raise the table height to at least 60", you'll appreciate that thirty years from now and before any support and table tops are laid, paint the walls and ceiling taking into consideration hills, factories, urban and residential areas.  A good time to place trees on 'far away' hills and place the 'far away' buildings. John in Lansing, ILL

Let's see a track plan.  Good luck.

Rick

Congrats on the Barn and the upcoming layout. I'm supposed to be in Houston Labor Day Weekend. Maybe we can schedule a meet as I had been pondering something similar.

AGHRMatt posted:

Congrats on the Barn and the upcoming layout. I'm supposed to be in Houston Labor Day Weekend. Maybe we can schedule a meet as I had been pondering something similar.

Be glad to have you Matt.

By Labor Day should have the second floor in ready for the benchwork to be started.

Any and all "been there done that" posts are encouraged. We all know how hard it is to build a layout and mistakes will be made.

I prefer to keep the big mistakes to a minimum.

Will post some pics of The Barn exterior and then the progress on the inside. Like I said I haven't even decided on a track plan yet but am excited to think it through.

Please never take offense if I don't go with an idea... things like I don't plan on running operating sessions and I do plan to keep it modern except for a complete Atlas "California Zephyr" passenger train set. No loco for that yet though!

Can't believe The Barn exterior is finally built and I'm actually in a position to begin construction of a very big (to me) layout!

Please post often all of you. I'll be reading every word.

Chuck

Rail Dawg,

What type of HVAC system is used in The Barn?

Jim Eudaly in Kansas City has built a layout in a space about that size based on the C&O in the WV and VA mountains.    Perhaps something on his layout is on line to look at.

That is a great space!  What railroad are you modeling?  With all that space, it would be awesome to research the area of a favorite railroad and closely follow the detail...  You may even be able to replicate a track arrangement in a small yard.  That would be really cool!  My two cents, be sure to leave extra wide aisle way space as it is likely you will have many visitors.  Five foot wide aisle-ways would make it easy for folks to get by one another.  Good luck!  

----> RAIL DAWG,

Last year, I made several plans (but above all dreams!) for a 15 x 10 meters room; it's more or less the size you have; if it can help you, I can share these plans with you (and other members of course!).

Hope to bring you some ideas for your layout!

If I had a barn like you..........!!!!!!!!!!!

jpv in France

Sounds like you have a fantastic opportunity to build the layout of your dreams.  I was in a similar position some 11 years ago - but with construction practices in Virginia and favorable terrain we went for a walk out climate controlled  basement. 

When building your railroad you'll be bringing  in quite a large quantity of materials.  With a second story train room you may want consider how the stairs and barn loft doors can configured to minimize access issues.

I look forward to following your project on these pages.

Here is an outside view of The Barn:

That's a great looking building.

Incredible! Great looking building. I wish you the best of luck and look forward to updates. 

Thanks so much for the compliments guys! I'll admit I'm pretty darn happy with The Barn.

The 2nd floor is going to be a clean 30 x 50 with only the opening for 1 staircase in the way. Nothing else. The staircase will be inside the track plan so no need to duck down anywhere.

I like the 60" bench height idea John in IL. Anyone think that's too high?

Haven't decided on HVAC Old Goat. Roof is foam-insulated but the sides are not. Probably going to put a system in just for pure comfort. Lots of $$$. I'm not rich and the layout is going to add up.

I'm thinking 96" minimum radius.  16 feet to do a 180 degree turn.

I'm really going to be leaning on you all as we move along with this. I have confidence but I also know there is a LOT of talent right here on the forum. I would be foolish not to ask questions and listen.

Chuck

Fantastic job. Please post pictures and videos of the project.

Hi Chuck.

I don't know how tall you are, but I think 54" might be a little better and I'm 5-10.

AGHRMatt posted:

Hi Chuck.

I don't know how tall you are, but I think 54" might be a little better and I'm 5-10

Matt I'm shorter at 5-8

Anyone else with some input on bench height?

Sit on a roller seat(one that is close to the floor) with a back. Then see how comfortable you are raising your arms.  46" to 54" seems  reasonable.

Rail Dawg posted:

 

I like the 60" bench height idea John in IL. Anyone think that's too high?

 

Female visitors to your layout who are 5'1'" might think that's too high.....

A 30' X 50' layout.  That's gonna take a lot of paper.  Like the green kind.  Sounds like fun.  Best of luck!

Chuck,

It is certainly a nice building you now have.  Layout height is of course personal preference.  I agree with others that 60" may be too high for visitors.  Also remember that the higher it is, the less distance you can reach over the layout.  If you are going with narrow shelves, then that doesn't matter.  I built a layout at 50" before we had children.  The layout proved to be too high for them to see without me holding them up.  Now that our children are grown, I want to build a layout where there is a low child height area for them, and then a higher area where any adult can see .  I like the idea to have that just high enough to be seated and roll under the layout.

Chuck...now that looks like one great space!!!

As for table height...I made mine 42" at the top of the plywood. Then I purchased one of these folding carts on sale at Menards for about $25...added a couple of old kneeling pads, one for my back and one to sit on...and it worked very well for running all of the wiring. Two of the wheels at the back are fixed and front two are caster type, so once you figure out how to best maneuver it...you can really zip around.  I'm in my 70's and grasping the benchwork framing enabled me to lower and raise myself onto the cart without a lot of effort...I used and filled a tray with connectors, cutters, pliers and all tools that I might need before I sat down to keep getting up again to a minimum...of course, the best laid plans...well, you know how that goes...

Looking foward to watching your progress...

I think what needs to be considered is the design of the layout, is it going to be deep from front to back?  If so I would lower it, if not then keep it higher depending on the viewing experience you want to have...again with consideration given to access for work/scenery and maintenance.  The viewing perspective has a big impact on the final experience, I would not go any higher than 60" personally. 

Really a nice building you have there and what a great size for a layout too. Please keep the pictures and progress postings coming.

As for layout height, personally 60" would be too high for me at 5'-9" tall. I used Mianne benchwork at their standard height of 40" to bottom of plywood (40-1/2" to top). If I had a do over I might go to about 42"-44". I have a couple of mechanic's stools I sit on to get under the layout which work really well, but with another couple of inches I wouldn't have to duck for the cross bracing. However the top is just about right for me when working on something there, so it is a good height for the top and a comfortable working height.

As mentioned above, getting a comfortable rolling stool, then measuring to the top of your head when you are in a comfortable sitting position, then adding a couple of inches should put you in the ball park for height. I did this with my layout and I think I missed it by a couple of inches (the reason I suggested adding a couple of inches). You will probably be under the layout more than you think so try to make it as comfortable as possible, but the top level is important for layout work up there as well. Maybe some compromise will be needed between the two? Also, if you have a good plan ahead of time you may be able to do a lot of the wiring from above before the top is installed, making the clearance below the layout a little less important? 

Now listen if I don't respond to every piece of input here please don't take offense! I can assure you I read every work written and put it all into the decision-making process.

Bench height is a critical decision. I completely agree with so many of you are saying. If I could install a restroom under the layout I would for the amount of time I plan to spend under there lol!

Serenska posted:

Rail Dawg posted:

 

I like the 60" bench height idea John in IL. Anyone think that's too high?

 

Female visitors to your layout who are 5'1'" might think that's too high.....

As would a 5' 1" male as well as most children...

I think you might find 60" is too high. I started my first permanent layout last year and the surface is 41" off the floor. That gives me enough room to scoot underneath as needed - I'm 6' tall and use an old adjustable desk chair with no back. Keep in mind that you will probably be doing a lot more on top of the layout than underneath (laying track, scenery, etc.). At 5' tall, it may be difficult to be constantly stretching over the table top to work. Just my opinion...

Just curious of how you intend to build the 2nd floor.  From my guesstimation the sidewalls of the building are around 12 foot high (7 foot entry door plus perhaps 5 feet above it to the eaves). 

If you have a minimum 8' ceiling height on the first floor that means you will still need a foot for the floor joists of your 2nd floor.    And you will need some type of support for that 2nd floor unless you have a floor joist/truss that can handle a 30' clear span... all would have to fall within the engineering requirements of whatever building code your municipality adheres to.

Lots of engineering there, but I have to say if you built a layout platform around the inside on the perimeter on 12' stilts and then added a walkway at 8' I wonder what this is considered for the purposes of building code?

I'm trying to ask tough questions as I line up property for an O scale sized garage/pole barn/etc.

One other thing about your bench height (as some others have already mentioned) would be kids or grandkids or shorter folks. My grandson was 8 when I built my benchwork and he was a little short for the 40" height. He didn't complain, but I got him a couple of step stools at Harbor Freight to use for added reach and viewing. He can reach just about everything on the layout with the stools and he whips them around wherever he needs to get to something and doesn't seem to mind using them at all. He will grow into the height eventually and not need the stools, but I use them myself every now and then for reaching something a little out of the way. Just another thought here. 

That's a very handsome building for this ambitious project!  I look forward to seeing the track plan and then photos of construction as the work progresses.  96-inch-radius curves will be very satisfying in terms of the appearance of trains running through them, but they will eat up a lot more real estate then one might imagine.  I have a simple 2-rail layout (essentially a big display loop) in a 20x40 space that incorporates 108-inch-radius curves with easements (one semi-circle at each end of the room).  An A-B-B-A set of F units pulling a train of 40- and 50-foot freight cars looks terrific on these wide radius curves, but the truth is that they eat up so much space that there isn't much room for anything else besides the single-track mainline. That's a compromise that is OK with me. I'm getting older and I don't want to do much maintenance, and I like to watch the trains run with a minimum of effort and attention.  So, I ended up with a model that represents only about one mile of main line -- but it's still fun!

Rule292 posted:

Just curious of how you intend to build the 2nd floor.  From my guesstimation the sidewalls of the building are around 12 foot high (7 foot entry door plus perhaps 5 feet above it to the eaves). 

If you have a minimum 8' ceiling height on the first floor that means you will still need a foot for the floor joists of your 2nd floor.    And you will need some type of support for that 2nd floor unless you have a floor joist/truss that can handle a 30' clear span... all would have to fall within the engineering requirements of whatever building code your municipality adheres to.

Lots of engineering there, but I have to say if you built a layout platform around the inside on the perimeter on 12' stilts and then added a walkway at 8' I wonder what this is considered for the purposes of building code?

I'm trying to ask tough questions as I line up property for an O scale sized garage/pole barn/etc.

You are asking good tough questions that need to be addressed. One thing I've learned is do things right by the City... I live in the country but The City of Houston line is just behind The Barn so I'm under their rules.

14 ft. sidewall. I only need a 15 ft span underneath for driving vehicles and yes 8 ft. ceiling.

5 ft of clearance at the eves but that goes up toward 8 ft in the middle.

All going to be stamped/engineered plans with a permit from the City of Houston.

Please don't hesitate to ask questions like these. Best to get issues resolved up front.

Chuck

B Smith posted:

I have a simple 2-rail layout (essentially a big display loop) in a 20x40 space that incorporates 108-inch-radius curves with easements (one semi-circle at each end of the room).  An A-B-B-A set of F units pulling a train of 40- and 50-foot freight cars looks terrific on these wide radius curves, but the truth is that they eat up so much space that there isn't much room for anything else besides the single-track mainline.

So I'm thinking 96" minimum radius. And then again I'm thinking the 96" for two parallel tracks on the outside edge but down to 76" for the inner tracks so I can put more track in.

The outside track for the Big Steam and Atlas California Zephyr and the inside track for stuff that can take a lot less.

Thoughts?

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand the full nature of the building and your layout platform.  Can you tell us a little more about your plan?

1. Is the first floor going to a be a working garage for vehicles, toys, etc.?
   
   
2. What are the dimensions of the building's base foot print?  30' x 50'?  Or are those just the dimensions of the elevated layout area?
   
   
3. If the building's base footprint is also 30' x 50', where does the garage door go when the door is raised?  (This is what makes me think that the building must be bigger than 30' x 50'.)
   
   
4. On the inside, will your 30' x 50' layout benchwork be attached directly to the walls, or will there be a walk around space around the outside edges?  If it's the latter, how wide will this walkaround area be?

I have some other questions/observations concerning table height, but please give us a bit more info about the overall structure and we can go from there.

Steven J. Serenska

Serenska posted:

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand the full nature of the building and your layout platform.  Can you tell us a little more about your plan?

1. Is the first floor going to a be a working garage for vehicles, toys, etc.?
   
   

Yes the first floor is for barn things like mower, boat, etc.

1. What are the dimensions of the building's base foot print?  30' x 50'?  Or are those just the dimensions of the elevated layout area?
   
   

The actual building is 30 x 50 so the layout will be slightly smaller than that.

1. If the building's base footprint is also 30' x 50', where does the garage door go when the door is raised?  (This is what makes me think that the building must be bigger than 30' x 50'.)

The garage door is raised on a track that does extend into the layout area but shouldn't get in the way too much.

1. On the inside, will your 30' x 50' layout benchwork be attached directly to the walls, or will there be a walk around space around the outside edges?  If it's the latter, how wide will this walkaround area be?

I'm thinking of not attaching the 2nd floor nor the benchwork to the building walls. Depending on depth of benchwork there may or may not be a walk-around space. I do like lots of access so may create 18" of walkaround behind the benchwork.

It's all about Armstrongs "Track Planning for Realistic Operation". His guidelines are considered hard rules in the benchwork/layout design and construction.

I have some other questions/observations concerning table height, but please give us a bit more info about the overall structure and we can go from there.

I'm listening. Thanks!

Steven J. Serenska

I too am wondering how you are going to have a second floor with your building.  To me it doesnt look like you will have 8 foot sidewalls.  If you have the room, I would prefer 60 inch table height,  You can always raise the viewing by building a platform of say 12 inches here and there around the layout.  If you choose to have some second level, under may be better than over.  Is the overhead door necessary to your plans?  If not, it may save a lot on hvac and dust to do something different.  Good luck and keep us posted.

Here are my thoughts:

1. You said above that this building is "5 ft of clearance at the eves but that goes up toward 8 ft in the middle."  If that's true, a 60" table height would be exactly at the height of the ceiling at the walls which, of course, would leave no room for the trains.  Since the angle of your roof appears to be about 28 degrees, that would mean, if you'd like 12" of height above your outermost loop, you'll need to have the outer loop approx 24" from the wall.  Alternatively, you might be better served by a 48" table, which would allow you to make your layout 4 feet wider (i.e., you'd recover 2 feet on both of the eave sides of the building).
   
   
2. How many levels will the layout have? 1, 2, 3, more?  These will also affect tall the tabletop can be because each level needs to fit under the roof. If you're planning on 3 levels, even at a height of 9" per level, that's 27" or a little over 2'.  If your base level starts at 5', that means your 3rd tier will be at 7' in the air.  This will only fit pretty much exactly in the middle of the structure which might have a significant impact on any plans you had for a center viewing area.  Again, you might have more flexibility with a 42-48" starting point for the base level.

I offer these because I am in the process of building a layout on the 3rd floor of our home.  The pitch of the roof is something I never thought about when I started out.  I designed a very elaborate plan and then realized I had drawn the outer loop right to the edge of the walls.  I never considered the vertical clearance.  Because I'm not so great at thinking in 3D (or math/trig for that matter), it took a fair amount of experimenting to figure out my distance from the eaves walls so that I could have adequate clearance for the outer loops *and* adequate clearance for all 3 levels being built.

Here's another question: What sort of layout design are you contemplating?  Loops around the perimeter of the structure?  Dogbone?  Something else?  If the center of the room has an 8' ceiling, you'll need to drop a plumb bob or tape measure from, say, the point where the ceiling becomes 6' tall.  Visitors taller than that will have to duck their heads if your table is further back from that point. All of these factors -- table height, roof height, roof angle, room width, number of layout levels -- will influence your layout's footprint as much or more than curve radii you're contemplating.

When I discovered my own error concerning failing to account for the angle of the rafters, I found this site to be quite useful for calculating things.

I'll let others offer their comments and then I have questions about how you're going to handle the garage door.

HTH.

Steven J. Serenska

As you start finalizing the layout design start considering line side power supply 15 amp or 20 amp circuits, location of duplex plugs and type of lighting;  track, flourscent. led or combinations of these types of lights, drop ceiling and painting of interior walls for background scenery or to reflect the interior light. Someone may have mentioned building insulation and heating/air conditioning and the line side power requirements, also allow space for a work shop and storage.  Also consider the type of framework of the layout, I used L-Girder construction.  

Rail Dawg, with 5' knee walls and a center peak height of barely 8', you are talking about a fairly tight attic layout.  

Please take a minute and click on this link to take a look at what can be done in this kind of space.  Scroll down and you will get some wider angle shots that show the whole room.  Chuck Brasher has one of the finest Standard Gauge collections in the world and built this layout in his attic space to run the trains.  Keep in mind when looking at these pictures that Standard Gauge is very large, and some of those accessories are huge; you would be able to accomodate O Gauge trains and accessories in the same space much easier.

Chuck's attic is only 20' wide; you have the advantage there with an extra 10' from eave to eave.   Notice the headroom in the aisle, and also that on the open house day, the center aisle gets crowded fast; it's a tight space, but you have half-again as much room, either to put into center aisle or layout space.  

Chuck made his layout 30" above the floor - much lower than has been suggested here so far - because that maximized the width.  He normally uses a captain's chair to sit at to run the trains - it was removed for open house, and there is a picture of him running the transformer while standing.   30" is the height of your dining room table. At that height, none of the visitors have any problem seeing to the back of the layout.

You can see what is possible even having very little if any space between the layout table and the slope roof.  Again, you have an advantage with extra height and width; and again, O Gauge is more compact than the Standard Gauge he has on this layout.

With the sloping ceiling, your display shelf space will be limited to the two gable end walls.  

Well, I said I'm not too good at math.  That roofline is flatter than I thought (15 degrees).  I think a table height of between 36" and 42" is what is needed here.  Again, I'd ask others to check my arithmetic...