The Barn - A 30 x 50 layout begins

Great project. Please keep sending pictures

Even if I have to pull the benchwork away from the wall a couple feet I'm going to be fine with it. The space won't be perfect but I'm just glad to have it. 

Of course if I only built in one half of the barn I could make the layout 16 x 50 with plenty of room above as I could make a storage area for the barn stuff just 6 ft tall under the layout.

Please keep the different angles coming in. It's good to hash this out.

Rail Dawg posted:

...

So I'm in talks with getting someone out here who has engineered plans for a 30 x 50 deck that will touch all four walls of my rectangle barn. I want to ensure the second story is built to code so it can pass muster with the City of Houston.

...

 

Rail Dawg, I think what has us all a bit puzzled is envisioning exactly what kind of ceiling clearances you're gonna have on this second story "deck".  That garage door looks high enough to easily accommodate a boat with one heck of a tall mast... or even an RV or 18-wheeler!!!     But when raised, I'm assuming that it's got to intrude significantly into your "train space".  And when closed, whatever is stored in the garage that's that tall will also intrude into the train space.  If not, then you're talking about the 2nd story floor/deck being entirely above the garage door... which appears to leave you VERY little ceiling room upstairs -- particularly along the outer perimeter of the 30' x 50' space.  (I don't think you're gonna do the latter, 'cause that would mean one HUGE volume of "unused" space on the first floor.)

However way you look at things, it looks like a terrific amount of space.  But folks who are looking for a track plan at this point might need to wait until you finalize the "3D" perspective of how this second story deck/floor is gonna live with all the other "stuff" this garage is intended to house.  And only you know the answer to that question right now.

Best of luck in what looks to be a tremendous -- and uniquely designed -- project!

David

hojack posted:

Rail Dawg, with 5' knee walls and a center peak height of barely 8', you are talking about a fairly tight attic layout.  

Please take a minute and click on this link to take a look at what can be done in this kind of space.  

OK good stuff there for getting space ideas.

I know I can drop the 1st floor ceiling down to 7 ft at the sides and then raise it to 8 ft in the middle so I can pull my truck through. 7 ft is plenty high for my storage needs downstairs.

7 ft ceiling at the edge gives me a finished 5 ft at the knee wall in the layout room and if I provide a couple feet of access between the knee wall and layout it should be just fine. A few loops of track with 96" minimum radius double mainline and lots of bridges/tunnels along with a real nice yard and I should be happy for a long time.

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

Rail Dawg, I think what has us all a bit puzzled is envisioning exactly what kind of ceiling clearances you're gonna have on this second story "deck".

The garage doors when opened will slide into the layout room but when we're in the layout room the garage doors will almost always be closed.

With 8 ft of ceiling in the middle of the layout room and 5 ft at the knee wall I think it's going to be ok.

The top of the layout floor will be even with the top of that metal "beam" that runs along the length of the barn halfway up.

OK, Let's get one thing straight right off the top! It's a train building, because it's much too nice looking to be called a 'barn'!

Since the layout will be quite large, you might want to consider RC Battery power. which I think is the wave of the future, and it will save you a pile of wire.

I would also think about an around the walls (meaning mainlines) type layout, where you can EASILY reach any point if needed. You can have yards and such on peninsulas inside the outer mainline loops, and you can bring your stairs up INSIDE the layout so you don't have need for lift outs or hinged sections of track.

I'd keep the track fairly level and give the illusion of grade changes with your scenery. (hills and gullies and such)

As for layout height, I would make it at a point where the pretty lady in your avatar can comfortably view things (unless you are shorter than her)!

Don't be in too big a hurry to finish....half the fun is getting there.

Simon

Hi

I have been read this thread and one quick question. Since this going to be built in Houston, TX are you going to install some kind of climate control in the train room?

nvocc5 posted:

Hi

I have been read this thread and one quick question. Since this going to be built in Houston, TX are you going to install some kind of climate control in the train room?

Absolutely.

Climate control, especially humidity control, in many parts of the country can be important for stable trackwork.  On an earlier layout I had ballasted flex track buckle out of line in multiple places with changes in season.  The track was laid with no rail gaps in humid months, and when the dry months came the benchwork shrank leaving the rails no option but to shift out of line.  My solution in that non-A/C's basement was to provide sufficient rail gaps to compensate for seasonal benchwork swelling/shrinking.  In the new house HVAC sized for the space minimized the issue, but the first winter I still had to adjust some track.  With your barn/loft train room you have the added element of the floor being above  a non-climate controlled area,  compounded by a roll up garage door that raises to a level above your planned floor height.   Addressing climate control early in the design of your barn loft train room should pay long term dividends.    

Wow! Now that I see the inside of the building I can see this will be an awesome train room. You obviously have two of three things one needs to build a great layout. You have the space and you have the funds but do you have enough free time to build such a large layout? Or perhaps do you have train friends that can help? I'm just curious. 

As far as layout height goes it is a personal preference but I prefer layouts around 42". The reason the scale guys build such high layouts is because they want to have that trackside feeling as they view the trains which I agree is nice but when I once built a HO layout at only almost 49" high I hated it. I'm 5' 10" and I couldn't hardly reach anything. I tore that thing down really fast. That layout was 4' deep and perhaps I would have liked it better if it were 1.5' feet deep. I know I am in the minority but I look at it this way if I want the trackside view I will just pull up a chair. It's easier and cheaper too (less material).  My advice is to visit other layouts and see what height you prefer. 

Hudson J1e posted:

Wow! Now that I see the inside of the building I can see this will be an awesome train room. You obviously have two of three things one needs to build a great layout. You have the space and you have the funds but do you have enough free time to build such a large layout? Or perhaps do you have train friends that can help? I'm just curious. 

 

I do fly for one of the major airlines so one thing we get is time off. We spend 3-4 days away from home then 3-4 days at home.

You've brought up a good question. There are no 2-rail O clubs in Houston and I have given thought towards starting one so there would be lots of help.

This is my 3rd layout and the first two although not nearly this size I did do myself and enjoyed the process just like we all do.

So it's an important decision. Haven't made it yet.

Keystoned Ed posted:

  Addressing climate control early in the design of your barn loft train room should pay long term dividends.  

 

It will be so much better to have a stable temperature. I need to invest the time and $$$ to get the insulation in and then the HVAC.

I think you're absolutely right Ed. 

Just got done with a ladder in The Barn.

With a 7' ceiling on the first floor we will have 5' 10" at the 2nd story knee wall and almost 9 ft over our heads in the middle of the layout room.

That is plenty and I'm satisfied.

I'm going to put in the 2nd story and insulate just the top half of the barn and then install an HVAC system to heat/cool just the upper floor.

Once done there will be roughly 28 x 48 ft of workable layout space.

Double mainline with lots of passing sidings and a large yard. A smaller regional track that heads into the mountains to bring loads to the mainline.

Plus whatever ideas you all bring to the table.

I am excited!

RailDawg,    When we lived in Houston, I had my layout in a converted garage and the height was 40 inches.  Before long, due to the reach over the layout for derailments, scenery, etc., wished I would have made it lower.  Over reach and underneath work have to both be considered.  For those reasons I have my current layout at height of 27 inches.  I know, that sounds a bit crazy, but works great.  I have great space for yards, sidings, scenery and all is within reach from the isle.  The underneath is easy to work for wiring and all else, have a mechanics creeper, very comfortable, and everything is easy to reach at arms length and my neck is never bent in a "looking up" position.  At my age in life, and other aspects, this works great for me.  Also, have plenty of elevation above for the second level and future prospect of even greater heights, all within a eight foot height ceiling.  And, not only for reaching across, but it is a very good viewing angle for all, visitors, kids and family. My layout is 24ft by 28ft in an inside space of 28ft by 34ft with all curves being 72in radius.  Yes, it is a Highrail layout and has five main lines on lower level.  Upper level is under construction, and I do have one duck under at the elevated "Y" track, similar to the Feather River bridge.            Food for thought..........

Jesse    TCA

texastrain posted:

RailDawg,    When we lived in Houston, I had my layout in a converted garage and the height was 40 inches.  Before long, due to the reach over the layout for derailments, scenery, etc., wished I would have made it lower.  Over reach and underneath work have to both be considered.  For those reasons I have my current layout at height of 27 inches.  I know, that sounds a bit crazy, but works great.  I have great space for yards, sidings, scenery and all is within reach from the isle.  The underneath is easy to work for wiring and all else, have a mechanics creeper, very comfortable, and everything is easy to reach at arms length and my neck is never bent in a "looking up" position.  At my age in life, and other aspects, this works great for me.  Also, have plenty of elevation above for the second level and future prospect of even greater heights, all within a eight foot height ceiling.  And, not only for reaching across, but it is a very good viewing angle for all, visitors, kids and family. My layout is 24ft by 28ft in an inside space of 28ft by 34ft with all curves being 72in radius.  Yes, it is a Highrail layout and has five main lines on lower level.  Upper level is under construction, and I do have one duck under at the elevated "Y" track, similar to the Feather River bridge.            Food for thought..........

Jesse    TCA

Jesse posts like yours mean a great deal to me.

This project is going to be with us for many years to come and the decisions made now are pretty much permanent ones.

I like what you have done! What a great hobby we are in.

Jesse,

You do have a good point about working from a creeper as opposed to a rolling chair.  I do get such a headache chaining my neck in awkward positions.  My ceiling level layout where I had less than nine inches clearance from the tops of the doors to the ceiling was a literal pain in the neck.  Ouch!!  I built my layouts high as I stated earlier, but as I also stated, I want kids to see parts of the layout.  I'll keep the nice trains at a higher level for me and when the kids are old enough.

Chuck,

I appreciate your positive feedback on all ideas.  You are smart in that you are encouraging more people to give ideas and ask questions!

Mark Boyce posted:

Chuck,

I appreciate your positive feedback on all ideas.  You are smart in that you are encouraging more people to give ideas and ask questions!

The team is ALWAYS smarter than the individual Mark as you well know!

I've already avoided some pitfalls by reading what my fellow hobbyists are posting.

Good stuff and it's nice to be starting on layout #3!!

Chuck

Oooooo......this is exciting!! Will be following this one!!

Fresh ideas for a "Red Barn"?

Likely you don't remember the commercials. But listen to the close.

  "Semi-fast-food"..in a basket vs wrapped to go. Good food, bad management, gone now

It's almost a warehouse you have there. My house possibly sits on as many sq.ft.

I half expect a spur siding ...... leading into the doorway

  I haven't read the whole thread closely yet, I could be confused about the plans early specifics but......

Not knowing dust type or amount, wind direction etc., the door sliding into the train room means wind exposure near that door too. There are easy ways to seal the gap better,(bristles, rubber blade, etc) but it will get dirtier in that area over time. A full door pocket for it to hide in, seems best. So knock a few inches off the room measurement if you haven't already .

   I use a "tower view" while operating from a stool. And I like it too. So ideal height for me is actually fine very low. But if not at the stool, I'm on the couch. So are visitors. So that's my arrangement's focus point; track at eye level, when sitting close on the couch..

   So how low? -  #1 A short kid needs to see while standing. #2 A shorter adult needs to see from sitting on that couch about 3'-9' away. That puts "eye level" here at under 36" (my original height was 40", then 36", then 34") . At 32" it was about right, 30" would've been better. I'm at 34" again today(I think), after putting wheels on the layout legs. And I can once again see folks sitting up, and craning at the neck just to see ok at 34" and 3' away. It seems a wheelchair might sit only slightly higher, and those folks slouch a lot.....

  Layouts at below the hip, also allow a huge reach-over without elbows taking out utility poles Godzilla style

   This is a small layout today, but I was around a large one growing up. Lower for seeing better when I was younger would have been great. I have a lot of memories from below track level, and a few from lying on the floor after falling off a step-stool when watching.

   If your tall, and/or wont have to deal with such visitor entertainment, then do whatcha like .

Adriatic posted:

Fresh ideas for a "Red Barn"?

Likely you don't remember the commercials. But listen to the close.

  "Semi-fast-food"..in a basket vs wrapped to go. Good food, bad management, gone now

---

It's almost a warehouse you have there. My house possibly sits on as many sq.ft.

I half expect a spur siding ...... leading into the doorway

---

  I haven't read the whole thread closely yet, I could be confused about the plans early specifics but......

Not knowing dust type or amount, wind direction etc., the door sliding into the train room means wind exposure near that door too. There are easy ways to seal the gap better,(bristles, rubber blade, etc) but it will get dirtier in that area over time. A full door pocket for it to hide in, seems best. So knock a few inches off the room measurement if you haven't already .

---

   I use a "tower view" while operating from a stool. And I like it too. So ideal height for me is actually fine very low. But if not at the stool, I'm on the couch. So are visitors. So that's my arrangement's focus point; track at eye level, when sitting close on the couch..

   So how low? -  #1 A short kid needs to see while standing. #2 A shorter adult needs to see from sitting on that couch about 3'-9' away. That puts "eye level" here at under 36" (my original height was 40", then 36", then 34") . At 32" it was about right, 30" would've been better. I'm at 34" again today(I think), after putting wheels on the layout legs. And I can once again see folks sitting up, and craning at the neck just to see ok at 34" and 3' away. It seems a wheelchair might sit only slightly higher, and those folks slouch a lot.....

  Layouts at below the hip, also allow a huge reach-over without elbows taking out utility poles Godzilla style

   This is a small layout today, but I was around a large one growing up. Lower for seeing better when I was younger would have been great. I have a lot of memories from below track level, and a few from lying on the floor after falling off a step-stool when watching.

   If your tall, and/or wont have to deal with such visitor entertainment, then do whatcha like .

Adriatic you make some good points.

One thing I try to avoid like the plague is dust. You're right about those big doors... getting them into a pocket sounds like something I need to look into.

I'm a firm believer in top-quality filters for the HVAC and a room that is sealed as much as possible from the outdoors.

Still not sure how to do the benchwork. Funny how I'm hearing about heights from 30" on up to 60". Somewhere there will be that sweet spot all can agree on.

Please continue to post Adriatic as time goes on. We are at the beginning and there are going to be literally a thousand topics for discussion as time rolls on.

Tom Tee posted:

 

Most of my benchwork is canterlivered off the block wall or off 2 X 4's  in your case.  That allows for unobstructed working slots every 32",

Tom:

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but that's a nice looking setup.  What are the dimensions of the curved wood you're using for the fascia (i.e., on the lower front and the pieces shown on the floor)?

It looks like a 1" x 4" piece of pine.  Also, how do you get it to curve so nicely?  Do you use a steamer?

Thanks.

Steven J. Serenska

Adriatic,

Yes, I remember Red Barn!

Rail Dawg,

My whole house could sit inside your barn!  Im okay with that!  I get the privilege of watching and contributing!

Rail D,

  I agree this should be a fantastic project, keep us updated with pictures!

PCRR/Dave

On the height issue: 

There's a group of train enthusiasts in Gibsonia who have a layout about 5 ft. (maybe) off the floor, but they also built little platforms and steps with sides at certain places along the layout to allow little kids to see the scenery. 

pittsburghrailfan posted:

On the height issue: 

There's a group of train enthusiasts in Gibsonia who have a layout about 5 ft. (maybe) off the floor, but they also built little platforms and steps with sides at certain places along the layout to allow little kids to see the scenery. 

Now that's a tall layout!

Minus occasional lapses, here for the long run RD

Great building for this layout. Can't wait to see the progress of this layout. Yea, 5 feet is pretty high for a layout. Me personally for a home layout, I would go between 40 to 48". Reason personally, which you don't have to do, is so then anyone can see the layout from all angles. 5 feet is a great height, but if a kid or shorter person would see your layout, then it might be harder for them see. Unless you build step ups or small step ladders. Just something I thought I would help with.

For any layout, a very important aspect to remain aware of is ease of access to the top and all trains, trackage, scenery, etc.  For some is to have support that will handle being walked on, and no messing up the layout scenery and base in the process.  Then, to have the means of support with a platform or other similar access and reach from an elevated position.  But, with limited headroom, particularly the portions in relation to the knee walls, this could be a problem.  But, with narrow around the wall ledges and correctly placed peninsulas, it is very doable.  Still, I prefer to lower height due to reach over ease, comfortable access to under table needs, and even with use of plexiglass side panels above table level, less distance for the possible/inevitable event of engines or rolling stock doing swan dive to the floor.    On construction of the upper floor, the side wall purlins are what you referred to as your elevation reference.  The span of 30 ft across the "barn", and the load bearing expected placed upon it, are a topic for much thought and engineering.  As we all are aware, any layout can become quite substantial and heavy as work progresses, changes are made and with expansion in future choices.  With whatever structural route chosen, the lifting of heavy members and correct means of fastening are paramount, and may require use of a small crane, such as a drott, or possible a fork truck.  Either way, it is worth consideration and all a matter of choice and preference, as is all we love about this hobby.

Jesse    TCA 

Dang about 6 great posts in a row all addressing the exact issues at hand.

I love it.

Anyone here use the Mianne pre-fabbed benchwork?

Must admit I am very tempted to go this route. I don't mind building benchwork but at this size it seems like Mianne will be very standardized and something that can save many many many hours of possible frustration

Thoughts?

Neat building. Reading about Houston, Texas I was just thinking about the late Loreell Joiner (forgive me if I spelled the name wrong) and his Great Southern O layout.

As for the rail height pick what's best for you. As I  get old I want a more simplified layout, something I can finish in my lifetime better yet much sooner. Do you have an idea of a track plan, either hand drawn or computer generated?

Do you want Spurs, engine service yards, your general theme etc. As you noted John Armstrong, your Givens and Druthers. Best of luck and keep us posted.

Dawg,

Regarding height, I am 5'10" and my layout is 42" high with maximum 30" width.  I can easily reach across the width.  From a viewing perspective, I find 42" to be a bit low so I am contemplating raising it up to 46" which I believe gives a better viewing angle when standing and is still acceptable when seated.  Anything taller than 46", for my height of 5'10" is getting a bit too high for me although I have to admit I am also fighting against a low ceiling.  If I had a regulation 8' ceiling I might consider going as high as 52" for an even better standing viewing angle, but of course now I am compromising the seated viewing angle.    At 46" I will still be able reach across the width, BUT I have some scenery elements that rise above the layout about 10 inches.  At 42" inches I can reach over the scenery (delicately) without too much trouble, at 46" there is no way.  I have step stools around the layout and while I have no problem using those as the need arises to raise myself up in order to reach across, some of my operators find it annoying and so they are lobbying me to stay at 42".

Bottom line is build to your size and needs first.  At the end of the day you will run the layout the most and so the design should provide you the most comfort.

Dave

Anyone here use the Mianne pre-fabbed benchwork?

Rail Dawg posted:

Anyone here use the Mianne pre-fabbed benchwork?

There are/were reviews/threads regarding it and it's competitor Sievers on this forum, and you can find others with a Net search.

Simon

Rail Dawg posted:

Dang about 6 great posts in a row all addressing the exact issues at hand.

I love it.

Anyone here use the Mianne pre-fabbed benchwork?

Must admit I am very tempted to go this route. I don't mind building benchwork but at this size it seems like Mianne will be very standardized and something that can save many many many hours of possible frustration

Thoughts?

I think Mianne is a great product that takes away from what is in my opinion the worst part of this hobby--building benchwork. I would use Mianne benchwork in a heartbeat if I could afford it. Unless I estimated incorrectly it will cost me about $5K to do my future layout which is roughly half the size of your layout. 

I'm in no way saying that the Mianne product is overpriced. I think it is worth every penny. I just wish I had those pennies! 

Simon Winter posted:

Rail Dawg posted:

Anyone here use the Mianne pre-fabbed benchwork?

There are/were reviews/threads regarding it and it's competitor Sievers on this forum, and you can find others with a Net search.

Simon

I tend to trust the opinions here more.

Just a bias I guess lol.

Chuck

Hudson J1e posted:

I think Mianne is a great product that takes away from what is in my opinion the worst part of this hobby--building benchwork. I would use Mianne benchwork in a heartbeat if I could afford it. Unless I estimated incorrectly it will cost me about $5K to do my future layout which is roughly half the size of your layout. 

I'm in no way saying that the Mianne product is overpriced. I think it is worth every penny. I just wish I had those pennies! 

Ouch! That is a lot of coin.

Talk about a time/headache saver though.

I see a 19 x 23 ft is $1749

Rough guess maybe I would use 3 of those in various configurations?

http://www.miannebenchwork.com/super_kits.htm

Again a very rough guess.

RD, after looking at the link you post I think I did overestimate. For my needs it would probably be roughly $3.5k. I think I would need about two of the layouts you linked to. What makes it hard to estimate is those layouts are designed for 36" radius curves (O72 for the 3 rail folks) and I want to go with 54" radius as a minimum. 

Rail Dawg posted:

Anyone here use the Mianne pre-fabbed benchwork?

I used this one. http://www.modelrailroadbenchwork.com/

I am very happy with it. What I was drawn to, were the curved corners. For those that may be looking closely, there was another support leg added to the middle of each 45 degree curved corner after this picture was taken.

Hudson J1e posted:

RD, after looking at the link you post I think I did overestimate. For my needs it would probably be roughly $3.5k. I think I would need about two of the layouts you linked to. What makes it hard to estimate is those layouts are designed for 36" radius curves (O72 for the 3 rail folks) and I want to go with 54" radius as a minimum. 

My guess is totally that right now... a guess.

It seems with 3 of them I could fill the 30 x 50 room with quite a bit of benchwork.

Having not even developed a track plan I can't hammer down a price but I know the layout is going to go along all the walls with a couple of big loops into the middle.

Minimum Radius is a whole other issue I still need to discuss. I'm wondering if 96" is too much... that although it would look great it's starting to waste precious real estate.

Not sure on that yet.