The "Disposable Commodity" and Model Trains

I'm with Martin. Not Disposable.

Also, I work in elextronics, Certainly, Some parts become unavailable, but better ones have taken the place. PS2 is no longer made, but the new PS3 boards will plug right in where they were.

Can't speak to Lionel products but I see no reason the same could not be true for them.

The only disposable model trains I've ever seen have been ones too damaged to be saved. All my modern trains with electronics have been very robust and show no sign of slowing down. Like any electronic it can always be repaired if necessary. I do all my repairs myself, the electronics are less complicated than the myth perpetuates.

Honestly this just sounds like another veiled "Postwar Rulez" thread.....

I'm pretty sure a lot of Postwar (and Prewar) got relocated into landfills over the years.  Not every family that owned trains became collectors.

 

The sky is not falling...

 

Rusty

I bought a lot of post war steamers after answering an ad in the paper from a garbage man who plucked them out of the trash as he made his rounds. He had steam locomotives only. Most with tenders, piled like vegetables at a roadside stand on a workbench in his garage. It was the '70s, and he wanted about $20 apiece. Everything I bought from him ran.

 

This board is overwhelmingly populated by eager technophiles, Dennis.  What kind of responses were you expecting?

 

Try going on to a Chevy website and extolling the virtues of Fords.

 

I sure was around at the start of the Post War era and I sure would not want to substitute what we have today for trains for that era. Not to say that the Post War era isn't important to our hobby as it sure is, but I do not consider the trains of today as future trash material.

Everything has a life span Dennis.

 

Engines with modern electronics may not be user serviceable but they are much better than our granddad's trains.

I hold a degree in electronics engineering and have an idea about electronic circuitry-LOL. A skilled person can sometimes reverse engineer circuit boards, provided that you can identify the integrated circuits used and their function. They are sometimes standard components but in many cases these parts have no markings. Some like microcontrollers and memory chips also need to be programmed before use or they will not function.  Unless the components are very basic, the life cycle of some iC.s, particularly digital can be five years. Put it all together and it will make repairs of unique TMCC and Legacy engines challenging and costly. The widely used standardized DCC may be the exception.

If you read my post I make no statement that PW trains are better, just more reliable and more repairable. Certainly fancy features in an engine give you far more realistic operation but if they have the fate of everything else that I buy these days, I don't want them.

 

I think many folks make more of the electronics issue than is warranted.  However, as an operator of postwar and modern there are two issues with the newer trains:

 

1.  If an electronic board fails, replacement with a similar or upgraded board (assuming the original is no longer available, for ex.) will be an order of magnitude more expensive than repairing a postwar loco.  This is a cost of the higher level of features built into the trains.  

 

2.  It is imperative that quality control be rigorous.  Sloppy quality on a simple item is not acceptable either, but it is generally simpler to remedy.  Quality lapses on a feature laden, complex item will be harder to remedy, and more frustrating to solve.  Apple does it with iPads, iPhones and similar, so it is not unreasonable to expect the electronics in these modern trains be made to a similar level of quality and reliability.  Lionel seems to understand this and it is one of the reasons I think Mike Reagan has been promoted.

 

On a purely anecdotal note, the Lionel TMCC equipment I purchased in the late 90s early 2000s has been very robust.  The items I have purchased post bankruptcy have been much more iffy.  I think this is more a testament  to inconsistent quality control as compared to a verdict on the reliability of trains with significant electronic components.

When all else fails, the electronics can be gutted and replaced by:

two wires,

bridge rectifier,

brigde rectifier and some form of e-unit, mechanical or electronic,

different contemporary electronics.

 

This also assumes that in 50 years, the folks will be as enamored with the same technical wonders as we are...

 

Rusty

I have to admit that I also worry about the future reliability and reparability of our modern trains, but I sure wouldn't trade for the older ones.  As has been pointed out, you change or repair what's under the skin, but are stuck with the outward design.  If it's not scale, you are stuck with it. 

 

Art 

Well first, the average electrical board seems to last alot longer than five years. I have about 50 locos that are both "electronic" and between ten and twenty years or old. If it were not for PS1 and its three-clanks-of-death I would have had only one failure, and among a handful of locos from 1990-1994, I have no failures: they seem bulletproof, frankly, if a bit old now.

 

Which brings up the main thought I have: there is a positive flip-side to this: five years or more out (since you bought) newer locos will be noticeably improved.  Over time you will want to replace locos because the new are so much better.  I passed on the new V Bigboy: it's a big improvement on the JLC one I have.  But I am certain, the next iteration from Lionel, in another eight to ten years, will be snapped up by me.  Given this continual improvement, I'd rather have things as they are.  

The above statement does hold some merit. To say that they are much better is a matter of opinion. I own many trains of yesteryear. For me to say that they are much better is also a matter of opinion as well. The one truth is this. Most all of my trains were my granddad's trains.

When we all are dead and buried I doubt that we will be to concerned if that favorite electronic locomotive will still be running.

"Are we now buying disposable trains?"

 

What items made by man are not disposable? People thew away the great pre-war and post-war trains when their kids went to war or college or got married, or maybe just because they hadn't played with them in a year.

Same stuff happens today, be it trains, or RC cars or dolls or computers.

 

The biggest fear I have with this modern disposable society is when people are considered disposable.

They have been for thousands of years.  Now I need to get back to my lunch of soylent green.

 

While Dennis does make a point, the modern trains of today have become too expensive to be disposable.

This is an interesting thread and I hope the replies will make me feel better about this subject.  Not that I'm losing any sleep over it, but I have thought about it.

 

Art 

 I would not consider the increased cost of new equipment results in more reliable equipment as the overseas random quality issues make reliability the luck of the draw. Expense is another, separate issue as the hobby becomes more of a niche hobby for adults whether it is the operator and \ or collector due to the increased, necessary investment for new equipment,track control systems, scenic details..no one wants to throw money out the window so, no, it's not disposable in that sense. But it's not a money back guarantee.

I think it's a trickier decision process than in the past. BTO is another uncertainty. Pay to play is a matter of disposable income..the haves versus the have nots..Too many variables for any conclusive generality. Its an individual matter..no consensus or rules apply to this.

 

My biggest problem with this kind of conversation is that people automatically condemn electronic devices to failure. When you go back a generation, anything new of the time was condemned to certain failure for some other reason. So on and so forth, back to the caveman grandfather that poo-pooed his grandson for inventing the wheel!

 

"Ugh! Wheel junk! Wheel never last!"

For myself long term electronic reliability is a moot point. I have a set made in 1928 and it ran perfectly out of the box so to speak. Who is going to be around in 80 or so years and more importantly who cares? Whats the time line to determine whats disposable? I dont think anyone knows or cares that much except those who have put their money into it.

Its not the electronics that make the trains disposable. Its the lack of finding parts that will completely trash a good unit.

I have few locomotives under the layout that are basically trash until those parts are found. The hunt continues...

I like buying the disposable trains of others......bought one today in fact.

Maybe 33% of my locomotives were bought DOA and retro fitted to my specs.

I pull the dead components and replace them with electronics simpler and more durable. 

So disposable? NO......retro fixable? Yes

 

But 1940's era stuff is pretty stout.....I have a 40's era Lionel that is my wife's oldest brother loco that still runs.

Here is a positive solution; if a TMCC or Legacy engine electronic control board burns out or fails, one could always replace the sound and control boards with a simple reversing and sound board. You could also try modifying to DCC controls. Those provide simple operation and should always be available. 

When its time to lock me in the box, I want to keep my trains running for the future generations of the LaGrua family. The fact that I am primitive will insure that. .

I would imagine with the increased popularity of the newer trains, the postwar parts will one day become harder to find and some will eventually be un-available as well. Don't know how many are in my category, but I would not have any trains today if it were not for the modern electronics and command control. That's what got me started back in the hobby.

 

As for the electronics, there are replacement boards available for both MTH (PS-2 and soon to be available PS-3) and TMCC (Electric RR Co.) as there have been for quite some time. I think this will continue, I see no reason for them to stop making these upgrades any time soon. Seems they do a pretty good business with them. I don't think the electronics will be the parts rendering the trains useless. And no need for reverse engineering either as these same replacement boards will continue to be upgraded by their manufacturers as the older ones or their IC's become obsolete.

Some of my Mighty Sound of Steam engines are over 40 years old and the original electronic sound boards still work. However a couple of them are on their third mechanical smoke unit. 

i my self like the pre and post war lionel.  does not matter to me what ever one else likes because i believe to each there own.  

traindork,

Please contact me. My computer ate your email address.

I am one of those that believes that today's trains should not be considered disposable.  While they may seem to be not as "user friendly" as our post war trains, they can be repaired.  The problem I see is that the repairs can sometimes seem overly expensive but hopefully over time better and less costly electronic boards will become available. 

 

Alan

There have been 'worries' about the longevity of electronic components for many many years. In most cases these fears have proven to be groundless.

Back in 1980 I purchased a Nikon F3 camera. At the time there was a lot of concern about the lifetime of the LCD display (This was the first 'Pro' camera to use one.), and eventually Nikon made a statement that it should last for at least 5 years. Well, I've had that camera for 34 years now, and the LCD still works perfectly, as does everything else on that camera.

Sadly it is we who are the ultimate disposable commodity.  It's just a matter of time.  There's plenty of stuff floating around that's outlived folks by many hundreds of years.  Oh well.

 

Pete

 

ps - A Nikon's a Nikon.  You can count on it.

pennsyk4,

Charlie,

It's starting to sound as if this move is really getting you down.........way down. Don't allow it to happen.   After all is said and done. You will always have us.

Todays trains are disposable. It's that the average poster here is not ready mentally and emotionally yet. Sales of reissues with cosmetic improvements, etc are a subtle indicator that toy train buyers will buy the same thing over and over and this makes disposable more acceptable. It's an evolution of mentality that's coming along. At work we have $2000 water pumps built in the old Lionel style of heavy castings, heavy bearings, quality wiring, all metal motors, American made 100%. Guess what? Even though parts are available, the service agencies are almost all gone because of labor rates the factory can't afford. Sending the pumps back to the factory for repair costs too much in shipping charges and nobody wants to pay the shipping charge to get the pump back after the fix. For warranties, the factory has given up and has found it more cost effective to field scrap the pumps requiring only a little metal tag be returned in order for the customer to get credit. As far as non-warranty repairs, it's all at the customer's expense and by and large they are better off buying a new one. Hopefully the metals in the scrapped pumps get recycled and not dumped in a landfill. The time is coming for toy trains.....

my email is in my profile I'll gladly take all your old stuff especially brass passenger cars and parts

I think we should all go back to playing with rocks. Simple and long lasting design with no repairs ever needed.

For some reason the term "disposable" as applied to toy trains has a bad connotation.  There are many people so enamored with the electronic marvels in toy trains today that they see no problem with a circuit board being defective and lose reliability.  They can cope psychologically.  For others, the frustration level is too great when this happens.  Disposability or, perhaps more correctly, unreliability is a fact, not a value judgment.  We can either tolerate it or hate it depending on our own predilections and attitudes.  For me, there is less reliability today compared to the past and more opportunities for things to go wrong in electronics.  That is a fact to which we all can attest from personal experience, if not the experience of others we know.  Furthermore, one with mechanical ability to repair things is often at sea when it comes to dealing with electronic problems.  Witness the problems with computer chips in motor vehicles, computers. appliances, etc.  Car mechanics used to have diagnostic ability to repair cars.  Today, they plug into sensors to find out what is wrong.  And is it expensive to fix?  You betcha!  Now if you like all the gadgets in cars that run on electronics and are willing to put up with unreliability just to have the latest thing, you have made your own trade-off and will not be frustrated when something goes wrong.  For others, it may be different. An interesting point was made to me by a fellow at the TCA Museum when factory reps were showing off their latest offerings.  One of the complaints by many people centered around the time it took to repair trains by the manufacturers, one in particular.  The fellow standing next to me said that he couldn't understand why the manufacturer just didn't send the consumer another engine, car, or whatever instead of repairing it.  He said that the price of an engine already has factored into it an unreliability factor-- that a certain percentage of units will fail and need replacement or repair.  Now I don't know if this is true or not, but if so, then the manufacturers don't even have confidence in the reliability of their products.  Should we?

I have a growing collection of modern locomotives that were deemed too expensive to repair by their owners and thrown on eBay. I've picked up several nonfunctional TMCC/Legacy locos and had my repair guy gut them into conventional units.  They're getting a second career and I get the bulletproof conventional running I want.