The Future

You never want to say never.  Who knew several years ago that today we would use our telephones for everything but calling people?  

Battery power is already used in G/Large scale.  The problem of maintaining good clean track outdoors drove them this way.  While I am not up to date on the latest, you can check Aristocraft to see what they are doing. There have been good reports of their Crest and Revolution lines of electronics.

Dan

Indeed, folks in the Large Scale segment of the hobby have been powering their trains by battery power for some years now.  Eventually, this technology will likely be available to the smaller scales.

I think the rechargeable Lithium batteries that some cordless power tools use work very well. If there was a market for battery powered "O" gauge trains, wouldn't someone be starting down that path using Lithium batteries now?

But then there would be no need for the center third rail, right?

We kicked this around early this year on the electrical forum.  NO WIRES TO TRACK.   There are some safety precautions that need to be addressed.  Click on the underlined phrase to link. 

Charlie (pennsyk4) has posted videos of a battery operated O scale loco on several occasions. The present state of battery tech usually requires a battery car tethered to the loco for O scale.

 

Widespread use of battery power in O gauge is definitely in the not-too-distant future.

 

Jim

 

 

 

Gee why not go as far as magnetic levitation trains?  That is the big talk in the real trains industry.

You could eliminate the center third rail for most of your layout but keep the third rail in some sidings.

When the locomotive battery gets low, pull into a siding for a recharge.

 

Here's a good link for the Magnetic Levitation Trains.

http://news.discovery.com/auto...s-310-mph-130903.htm

You could do battery operated now IF you were willing to give up die cast engine shells and curves less than O-72 (the curves need to be wider to reduce friction and inertial effects).  The weight of the shell coupled with the physical size of the train means the weight/mass that has to be moved is kept to a minimum, aka there isn't enough space to stuff enough batteries to run the train.

Is there someone on the Forum who is knowledgeable enough about the current battery technology to explain to me, in layman's terms, how much power would be required to run an O scale Hudson around the layout (200 feet) for about one hour and then compare that requirement to the power available from a battery large enough to store in a tender and still leave room for the current electronics? How soon would a recharge be needed? Could a constant recharge be done from track power while running? Would two separate batteries be needed? If a battery was loaded in a freight car behind the tender/diesel, could the wires required to transfer power be small enough to simulate brake hoses?

 

Sorry for the wave of questions. I find this all fascinating. Thanks for all of your replies.

 

Scrappy

Elliot:  Please review the Link to a previous thread that I posted.  There is a lot of information and safety concerns listed there, (2 pages).  This technology is common in powered model airplanes. There is reference to battery size in one of the treads I posted.

A high end battery used to power model air planes.

2.5 amps @ 18.5 volts for 1 hr. ????

Dimensions: 5.43 x 1.85 x 1.18" (138 x 47 x 30mm) Most likely would fit a box car

 I'm not a battery guy in G scale. That has divided the following for G scale in a hard line. Several drawbacks of battery include the facts that batteries need replacing, they are fairly expensive, you need a control package inside each loco or consist, etc.

 Now the technology is getting much better. Each engine will run for several hours now on a single charge. So a O scale Hudson should draw less than a comparable G scale engine. I would say you'd be good for about four hours running on a quality battery pack. Most guys have battery cars that trail so they can be swapped out and keep the train rolling.

The biggest benefit is you can run a train on about anything including the floor because of the freedom from track power. A large drawback outside, I see a lot of users following the train because their remote doesn't have good enough range to take advantage of this freedom anyways.

 I don't see the battery being recharged from track power currently. I'm sure their are guys smart enough doing this and have not gone public. Tethers from battery cars could be anything with two wire paths of good enough current capacity.

Eliot, we just completed a battery powered train to pull the track cleaning car through the subway tunnels. works great. I made up a special low boy car to carry the battery (a 24v lithium ion from a power tool).

 Years ago Aristo released their battery system for smaller scales including the use in HO gauge. It just didn't get widespread use or acceptance. It's amazing to me that there are cheap remote control cars and yet never caught on in trains.

 Unless the big O scale manufacturers release products that use this technology, it won't catch on I think.

After dealing with batteries in my MTH engines for almost the last 19 years, I can pass, thank you.

 

Speaking of electric cars, you and I are paying for them.

 

Volt

 

 

Well in G gauge track prices are forcing folks into using battery power. Stainless steel track (which is needed for outdoor track powered rr's) is about extinct and if you can find any it will cost you $10.00 per foot...Aluminum track is $2.00 per foot. 1,000' of stainless track will cost 8K more and a lot of batteries can be bought for that price. Also do away with high dollar power supplies, outdoor wiring, railclamps and reverse loops.

 

I look at outdoor rr gurus like Dennis Sirrine in the Phoeniz area....10'000 of mainline and he's a battery power guy..he started out with track power and switched to batteries years ago.  

They do indeed!  I have a battery powered lawnmower, battery powered hedge trimmer, and several other battery powered lawn and garden gadgets that have worked well for several years now.

 

I have a small Large Scale layout in my garage that now uses track power, but if I was ever to have an outdoor garden layout again, you can be certain I will go 100% with battery power.

Many many years ago,(Back in the '80s)  I constructed a G gauge generator train to provide power to a locomotive. This was very basic, and rather crude, but it did function after a fashion.

 

Power was generated by an old twin cylinder diesel engine (salvaged from an old scrapped model boat) driving a generator salvaged from a motorcycle via a home built reduction gearing box. This provided power to a brace of 6v batteries which provided power to the locomotive via a cable. Power was regulated by a variable resistance taken from an old DC train transformer, and adjusted with a radio-control servo. A servo was also used to increase the throttle on the engine if more power was needed. (Total manual control!)

This whole contraption took up two home-made twin truck flatcars, and with the fuel tank car following behind, was not a lightweight or compact solution.

But…. It did work, and provided a lot of entertainment until the diesel engine eventually expired. This was built all from discarded/scrapped components, and cost the grand total of about $15 to build. 

I notice there is a lot of concern over current flows in a short circuit condition.

 

I would expect the wiring would be contained in the train, no power flowing through the tracks, so a derailment would not cause a short.

And couldn't the battery pack be designed with a built-in circuit breaker or some other current limiting device?

 

Folks don't seem to be worried about shorts in cordless power tools.

There's also passenger car lighting to consider. Maybe a battery pack in the baggage car? Might be feasible with LED lighting, but you'd have to add connections between the cars. Maybe spring loaded contacts like Euro buffers. Or maybe rechargeable AAA cells in each car, but then the logistics of recharging would be difficult. 

Absolutely true.

GSA is starting to replace its huge fleet of vehicles with smaller more efficient vehicles where applicable.

 

To roughly figure out the power requirements take the current draw of the train you are considering running and multiply it by the amount of time you would like to run.  You would need that many amp/hours of capacity.  The battery pack would have to mimic the voltage levels you are using (since most people doing this are already into some kind of command control the most likely answer is 18 volts).  I would guestimate that you want/need 5 amps (assuming full light, sound, smoke) and if you wanted to run for 2 hours that means 10 amp hours.  You would also need to consider the reserve capacity of the battery (aka can I really pull that much power out of the battery without damaging it.)

 

This is all about power.  How much energy can you deliver for how much time.  A car battery is designed to dump a bunch of amps in a very short time to get the main motor running while a trolling motor battery delivers lower power over a long period of time.  Typical 18 volt power tool would provide about 1/4 of what you are looking for (2.5 amp hours) but it's unlikely to actually be able to deliver that power over the time you said you want to run.  How often you run a cordless drill continuously?  These type of batteries are designed to dump a bunch of current in a fairly short time and then they are allowed a short recovery time.  A laptop battery is designed to provide continuous power over a long period of time.

The reason electric cars need high tech batteries is they move on a surface without power and are not tethered  to a power source. But our trains run on a fantastic surface that is just made for power distribution.....batteries charged by the rails may work....but I see myself being conventional for a while yet.....

I'm quite content with the performance of model trains powered through the track and run conventionally, so anything regarding battery power, etc. would not interest me.  Neither, from a personal standpoint, would I want to buy what I think would be possible with modern digital control.

 

But I would like to see "Smart" Technology put into toy trains, particularly toy trains to be run conventionally: stuff the locos and cars would figure out and do themselves, without me having to tell them to.   This would include all sorts of capabilities but among them, a loco that would detect when it or a car it was pulling was about to derail and halt.  Cars would open their couplers automatically when one began to pick them up off the track (I have car that powers its windows down a quarter inch when you touch the door opening lever - something like that) - and does the opposite when you put them back on the track and roll them up to a another car.    One that had radar like collision avoidance in cars, and on and on. Locos that memorize the route and anticipate that bumpy section or that they are approaching a turnout and know what's going to happen, etc.

 

BTW - I drive a Chevy Volt most days and I've driven most EVs since I work close to that industry, including a Tesla S.  I consider the electric nature of the car among its least interesting features - it another electric car - okay, fine - we're seeing a lot now.  What impresses me is that it is certainly among the very best cars, regardless of power source, ever produced, arguably even the very best now available.  I thought so when I drove it.  Motor Trend and consumer reports both agreed.  That a company could produce a car of that caliber and near perfection the first time it sat down to design a car (the Tesla roadster didn't count, it was basically just an electric Lotus) is just stunning.  GM and Ford ought to be looking at buying Tesla- "they are better at doing our job than we are!"

How about on board large BRC's between the rectifier and the engine motors.  That would smooth out any track issues.  Full battery is coming, but price and size are not there yet.  The ideas of third rail sidings for a charge in the future does make sense, or even 2R powered ones.

John touched on the biggest disincentive to battery power but most have ignored it. You would have to scrap all existing 3 rail engine electronics and replace them with new circuitry to control the battery power. No problem for 2 rail folks though.

 

Pete

What's the point of having batteries charged by rails?  If you have power in the rails, you wouldn't need batteries.

Standard battery technology is rated watt hours/pound if I recall correctly, and lithium ion batteries and the like offer magnitudes of rated power over the old lead acid and nicad batteries.  It is density that counts here, the higher the whr/lb rating, the smaller a given battery needs to be for an application. In the Tesla the battery pack is pretty large and heavy, and it also means the car is going to be expensive for the near future. If significant breakthroughs in battery technology take place or we develop practical fuel cells, then you will see electric cars that can compete against internal combustion products, that are now technology that is over 100 years old (and also not to mention the various subsidies that go into the internal combustion based car, including fuel prices that don't reflect the real cost of production).

 

I would hope that Ford and GM don't buy Tesla rather than license the technology, for the very reason that Tesla is run by technological visionaries, who are more concerned about developing new technology then totally being focused on ROI. Put it this way, modern gas cars in some ways are amazing, the technology in the cars that allowed a 450 hp vette to do 25 mpg or more on the highway, is pretty amazing compared to where we were (a comparable car from the late 60's, that would get smoked by the mew vette, maybe did 6mpg), but in other ways is not revolutionary, the auto industry applied existing technology well, but haven't really developed anything all that new either. The auto industry has too much pressure for short term results to develop revolutionary technology, in most of its history the auto industry hasn't exactly developed radically new things, it was mostly existing technology applied to a problem.

 

There is a lot working against battery technology, among other things lobbyists for the oil and gasoline industry aren't going to be too happy, and the suppliers for the current gas engine technology have fears of being supplanted, and there are also a lot of people who are convinced that internal combustion based cars somehow represent the pinnacle of things, or if we get rid of them suddenly we all are going to be riding in tiny bubbles that can go 25mph if you are lucky...one of the things to come to mind is  unlike prior generations, there is plenty of pressure outside the auto industry to develop decent batteries, despite all the claims by laptop manufacturers, battery life on a laptop is a couple of hours in real use, and they would love to have a battery that weights a couple of ounces that can last several days running a mobile device, and as mobile devices get more and more complicated, that pressure is going to increase, as people want more and more functionality yet lighter weight. Pull the battery out of a typical laptop and see how much it weighs....

 

I don't think electric cars are there yet, but I think that manufacturers like Tesla are showing the way to a new world, that yes, could include battery powered things, including the trains we run. I am not even certain that retrofitting the command control would be that difficult, the battery is DC, and if they use the rails to deliver the command instructions, it should be relatively easy to switch that with a small radio receiver and transmitter, in theory at least, the circuit boards themselves wouldn't know the difference is a command came via the rails or via a radio signal, it shouldn't care.

 

One thing to note, listen to the naysayers at your own peril. If we had listened to the naysayers back when gasoline cars were expensive, not easy to operate, failure prone, etc, it never would have found the breathing room it did, gasoline powered cars took almost 40 years to really grab hold and create a market, from the time they were created, and electric cars are competing against something that has been fully developed for roughly almost 90 years.

There are 15 years of reliable hybrid technology on the streets in the Toyota Prius. IMO. It's been around since 1998. There are other hybrids.  The GM Volt is a hybrid, defined as an electric, simply by the way the electric and gasoline drive systems are used.  The definition of electric applied to the Volt, allowed for a sizable government rebate not available to the Prius, i.e., adjusted the Volt price to be more competitive with the Prius, IMO.   Just some points of interest.  I believe what little I have read about the Tesla, it is all electric. 

Prius can be had nicely in the high $20,000. Volt in the $30,000 to more with the Rebate. Tesla, I believe, is an $80,000 car, with an interesting on-line marketing system that has ruffled the feathers of the established car marketing system.   

One of the most important parts of either hybrid or electric vehicles is the battery.

Battery types, charging systems, and safety, are still concerns, and on-going/evolving technologies.  Most of this in some way applies to the model RR hobby, if batteries are to be used.  Best check all that you can, if you intend to use either Lithium Ion, or Lithium Polymer batteries.    IMO 

Wheres my flying car?

Isn't battery power how electric trains started out over 100 years ago? Yeah, I think so.

What about the other needs for power on a loco. Lights, smoke, sound and couplers. That really adds up. It's not just the motors that will need the battery power. The smoke unit alone would be a major drain. Don

Especially smoke. The current draw of any of my can-motor steamers doubles when the smoke unit is turned on. 

From the powered model airplane hobby. My understanding. There are two power systems.  One is propulsion and the other is control.  When the main propulsion battery is low/stops the control battery still allows for the plane to be landed safely.   The same could be applied to an engine with multiple batteries for different task. IMO.

I have some combinations that my Z4000 will barely handle. One is my MTH PRR Centipede with 7 lighted passenger cars.

 

4 motors, 4 smoke units and sound.  It adds up quickly.

I want my model trains to run on diesel fuel, just like my truck.
(and the real trains)

"Isn't battery power how electric trains started out over 100 years ago? Yeah, I think so."

 

Yes, both wet and dry cell BUT the batteries weren't necessarily in the train.  They had the same issue with the batteries even then, high weight and short life.