Four years ago I picked up about 90 pair of new Athern trucks with IM wheels at Indy. They are extremely smooth rolling and long coasting. One of the most satisfying upgrades I have done.
Tom Tee posted:Four years ago I picked up about 90 pair of new Athern trucks with IM wheels at Indy. They are extremely smooth rolling and long coasting. One of the most satisfying upgrades I have done.
Hey Tom, are the Athearn trucks sprung?
Hi
On Ebay there is a MTH PRR P5 electric showing similar signs of zinc pest. He describes it as defective paint, but to me, it appears to be zinc pest.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MTH-2...060778.c100290.m3507
Steve
Steam Guy posted:Hi
On Ebay there is a MTH PRR P5 electric showing similar signs of zinc pest. He describes it as defective paint, but to me, it appears to be zinc pest.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/MTH-2...060778.c100290.m3507
Steve
but he dose state that "it looks perfect from 5 feet away"
I’m glad I got rid of my p5.
a friend of mine started checking his atlas 55 ton hoppers. Here is the result
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This is very scary stuff. Makes me nervous about buying without having it in hand to look over. Thanks for everyone bringing this up.
bluelinec4 posted:I’m glad I got rid of my p5.
a friend of mine started checking his atlas 55 ton hoppers. Here is the result
Good Lord, those photos are absolutely disgusting. A grim reminder as to why I have not purchased any new or modern train item in quite some time. I just got tired of rolling the dice every time I made a new purchase. I know there are some who would have us believe that these zinc rot problems comprise only a small minority of what is produced overseas but I have been on this forum for twenty years and the number of times I have seen this problem referenced leads me to believe otherwise and this forum only represents a small fraction of this hobby.
I know many also state that the U.S. was confronted with this problem as well and overseas manufacturers should not be singled out for criticism. On the surface that is true but U.S. toy train manufacturers eventually solved their problem and rid themselves of this pest and that was 80 years ago. I am not aware of any zinc rot problems existing on any U.S. post-war production although I will accept the possibility that some did occur but I am not aware of it. Technology has progressed by leaps and bounds since 1939 and overseas manufacturers have had access to it. I think its about time we stopped making excuses for shoddy overseas production practices.
Sure, it may very well be true that the large overseas manufacturers rely on small sized sub-contractors for small piece items in the overall production process but the bottom line is they are responsible for the finished product as are the importers of this product within the U.S. Something should be done about it but nothing will be done about it because all we do as consumers is to continually purchase the same poorly produced items over and over again while the manufacturers and importers literally laugh all the way to the bank. The items they are making may look and sound pretty for a little while but virtually every hobbyist has it in their subconscious that it may not last very long.
Every time I see a thread like this it reminds me to look on one of my train shelves and scrutinize the scale JLC GGI I bought brand new about 10 years ago. Its the one in Brunswick Green with the cat's whiskers. It is rumored to be one of the few produced not suffering from zinc rot but every week or so I have to check on the side frames to see whether they are crumbling or not. So far so good but who knows what I will find next week. That is not why I joined the toy/model train hobby. I experience no enjoyment when I constantly fear an expensive item is going to go belly up through no fault of mine but rather through the inept production processes of overseas manufacturers. That's why I stopped buying modern train items. Some might want to take this into consideration the next occasion they contemplate making another $1,000 or $2,000 purchase.
Zinc pest is caused by contamination of the smelted alloy and I believe it also can be caused if the elements in the alloy aren't in the right ratio. With smelting, contaminants can be things like carbon (from the furnace used to cast it), dirt and dust, moisture, and even things (I am not kidding) like sweat. It is interesting, when Lionel made the 700e zinc alloy casting was still relatively new, and likely they had problems with quality control. With Chinese manufacturing, it is much like some Japanese car products in the 60's and 70's, they outsource production of certain parts to little mom and pop shops (in Japan, many of them were run by Koreans living there who sort of lived and worked in the shadows in some ways), and they often lack the facilities or the expertise to be able to keep the alloy pure. Not to mention that the way they work the quicker they produce it the more they make, it is very different than how a large supplier works (basically, these little firms don't have a contract for X units at Y cost and have no incentive to make more than X); they basically make as much as they can as fast as they can and get paid per item, so if they turn out 1000 they make more than 750 (it is on a per piece basis)...as a result they don't care about quality, and the person who outsourced it doesn't care, bc the cost of pieces that can't be used is made up for the fact they are getting the parts so cheaply that it doesn't hurt their profits. The person who contracted the parts likely inspects them and gets rid of the obvious problem ones, but the problem is a lot of them likely are marginal but that will turn up well after the unit is made and sold someplace.
Normally the supplier who subcontracted it out would be in trouble if units fail, but the way outsource manufacturing works in China, the companies getting the product built don't really stand to lose much if products fall apart, if they fail under warranty they will fix them, but the cost of doing that (or of losing customers over quality issues) is low compared to their profit margin per unit likely.
You have to keep in mind these products are not being produced on state of the art assembly lines, it is very different than the plants you see that put together solar panels or fabricate chips, the production of the parts and the units for these trains is more like piece work assembly in a sweat shop in the clothing industry 100 years ago (actually very similar, the little shop producing the zinc cast parts was sort of like the women, like my Grandmother, who did things like embroidery for the rag trade in NYC, they would do it at home and get paid per unit they stitched, other small shops would have people cutting out nothing but pockets to be used by the clothing manufacturer.
Mike D posted:As long as there are those among us that expect diecast products, we will have to deal with this issue. I don't understand the aversion to plastic. Plastic doesn't corrode, it's durable and it is cheaper to make. Sorry to hear about your issue. I think many of us have been bitten by the zinc pest from time to time.
Split shells from body-mounting screw holes in postwar diesels, cracked shells from minor falls, melted shells from electric malfunctions, inferior structural integrity, etc.
Aside from a pair of sideframes on an old Williams Train Master and a pair of trucks on a diecast MTH reefers, I have never had major problems with any of my diecast trains. I have had many more problems with plastic components.
Plastics came into being for toy trains because they were originally cheaper to make and easier on tooling. They also held find detail better. All of which has been offset by the fact that plastics are no longer inexpensive, diecast tooling is no longer expected to last through hundreds of thousands of uses, and hobbyists expected separately applied fine details instead of cast-on details.
Diecast isn’t just perceived to be better. It is superior.
It really depends on the plastic. Luran S, made by BASF and used by LGB for their outdoor trains from the '70s through the '90s, is exceptional. Durable, weatherproof, and UV-resistant. One of the issues though is the loss of heft. To make up for it, you would have to add weight inside the boiler. Unfortunately today, lead (Pb) is taboo to work with in industry. The manufacturers could sell the locos hollow and leave hobbyists to make weights on their own, it would probably save them a bundle on shipping costs too!
However, every time the question of plastic bodied steam locos comes up on the Forum, the consensus is that hobbyists want metal locos. Honestly with all of the failure-prone gimmicks manufacturers stuff in the boilers these days, I'm not sure there would be room to add a weight! Even the motor is almost an afterthought. 
What chagrins me is that we had this problem pretty much solved by 1940, and now it's come back. I still wonder what it would cost to cast the parts in the U.S. Except for a few precision operations (such as quartering the driving wheels), leave painting and final assembly to the end hobbyist. I can solder a few wires and plug in electrical connectors. Color match problems: gone. Most quality control problems related to assembly: gone. Make gimmicky features like smoke, whistle steam, swinging bell, etc., OPTIONAL so the rest of us can just run our trains!
"Great performance without gimmicks, it just runs better because it's made right!"
"It's the gear ratio, Brian. It always has been the gear ratio."
I had this problem with the following cars:
8452 series Lackawanna;
8453 series New Haven;
8454 series NYC ( CCC&St.L);
8457 Series New York Central;
8461 Series New England Coal & Coke.
On all of these cars the center beam and the hopper doors disintegrated. Atlas provided free diecast replacement parts. Replacing the defective parts took quite a bit of effort. In the process some of the plastic detail parts were broken. I did not try to restore to like new because it was beyond my skill level.
Zinc pest is almost always due to high lead content. I'll look for the report I have, but as I recall, all it takes is 50ppm or more lead and you have trouble. Chemical analysis is required to determine lead content of a melt. You cannot tell just by looking at it. The small smelters in China do not have the where-with-all to get this testing done. So until the current brands move their production facilities out of China the problem is likely to continue.
My 2 cents.
Chris
LVHR
Honestly, if there is one thing I've learned from this and all the other threads, is never buy brand new diecast stuff and when you buy used, make sure you research it like crazy and stay away from affected models. Really sad too. I love that p5a engine that was posted above but I know now to stay very far away from them.
And to concentrate on buying plastic rolling stock even if it is plastic.
Jim R. posted:If the zinc alloy castings are manufactured properly, they are exceptionally durable. And the number of instances of zinc pest is minuscule in comparison to the overall production of zinc castings in our hobby from Asian production.
The problem in China is quality control involving small subcontractors for certain parts such as trucks, couplers and frames. Some of these model-train subcontractors operate out of garage-sized facilities that are far from state of the art. Some, not all, of these proprietors are either sloppy or indifferent in the production process for these castings.
The low-volume nature of these parts productions is what prompts the primary contractor to seek outside help.
Part of the answer would be for China to inspect and regulate small contractors. I suspect that’s not a government priority right now.
Also, for those who continually assail China for its quality production, I again have to point out that the zinc pest problem was also prevalent in toy and model train production in the prewar and postwar eras. Lionel’s 700E Hudson also suffered from zinc pest more than 80 years ago.
American manufacturers had to learn how to properly produce zinc castings, religiously avoiding impurities and performing best-practice standards. They eventually succeeded. China can, too, if it wants.
As for other options, well, ... . Let’s just say zinc alloys are used in so many products, usually of high quality, that I feel comfortable saying manufacturers rely on it as more useful than other choices. It’s their business, and I’m sure they have considered all the options.
Jim
Thanks. That was the most thought out response on this subject, I’ve seen in 10 years on forums. The idea my trains might fall apart still scares the crap out of me. I’ve only got a few cars where the couplers have snapped in odd places and that’s enough for me.
Marty
It’s a general comment on niche die-cast components of Chinese origin. Chinese quality control and customer service basically consists of “send another one and don’t pay the subcontractor”.
I had a carburettor body snap in half without warning, a while ago.
We are all aware of the zinc pest problems. And they do seem to be more and more of an occurrence. What about the use of aluminum for a casting materiel? I have a prewar O gauge AF Hudson with an aluminum cast tender. It is a great tender, has good heft and detailing. Has anyone on here knowledge to add about this alternative? Is it a viable alternative? Anyone know whether there is any history of a pest impurity of aluminum castings, of any type? Food for thought...….. Opinions...….
Jesse TCA 12-68275
No. Aluminum is too light, less than half the density of Zamak. Brass or bronze would be the logical choice and it won't ever crumble (although it can develop exterior corrosion in the presence of ammonia vapors.) However- brass locos sold by 3rd Rail and previous two-rail scale manufacturers are soldered together by hand out of sheet brass. This method is fine for low-volume models aimed at adults. It permits thinner walkways, etc., and importantly, avoids the high initial cost of tooling up a mold. Locos made this way wouldn't be durable enough for starter sets aimed at kids.
As the demographics of our hobby decline, the economics of die-casting for mass production are grim. Unless some future technology permits the molds to be rapidly and affordably created through automation, we may NEVER see another new single-purpose mold.* That's sad, because personally I just like the 'feel' of a thick casting better.
*Never say never... Unless I'm mistaken, there were no new die-cast locos developed for O gauge between the Lionel 'J' (in 1957) and the ill-fated Rock Island 4-8-4 (in 1987.) That Rock Island was a new boiler shell on a Berkshire chassis. But it was followed by the all-new Reading T1 in 1989, which opened the gates for all the subsequent new models from Korea and China. One can hope!!
Ted, when you speak of density, are you referring to mass integrity or simply the weight mass? Would not the hopefully elimination of any degradation of the product be worth the possible change in cast materiel ? Also, there are many aluminum alloys with record of long use without any difficulty, and do have sufficient mass. It is apparent the integrity of the casting materiel is overall the problem, and nobody disputes that. Along with use of aluminum, what other metal is readily available and proven for superior castings? Opinions...… I do realize some may believe to be a mute point, because it still involves a matter of QC. But, why not, can not, manufactures explore this route in seeking a resolution?
Jesse TCA 12-68275
This and other modern-era zinc pest discoveries should reinforce the importance to product marketers to be diligent in their oversight of their entire supply chain and the importance in having good relationships and communication with those manufacturing subcontractors. IMHO, you can not successfully have control or full knowledge of your products if you never set foot in the buildings where the product is produced.
I think the best example of a company in our hobby that follows this "boots on the ground" oversight practice is Scott Mann @sdmann of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot. We see his product updates from the overseas factory when his products are in the production stage. I think it is safe to say that Scott's presence and experience provides quick response to any irregularity that he may see.
Unfortunately China is involved in all sorts of manufacturing that is too expensive to produce here.
Not just toys but medical and military parts for the United states. Instead of looking just to intellectual property stealing our Gov should be looking at these issues.
@texastrain the table linked below should answer some of your questions. There is aluminum in Zamak (common alloy used for die-casting), but a boiler cast out of pure aluminum wouldn't weigh much more than one made out of plastic. Sorry.
Keystone posted:This and other modern-era zinc pest discoveries should reinforce the importance to product marketers to be diligent in their oversight of their entire supply chain and the importance in having good relationships and communication with those manufacturing subcontractors. IMHO, you can not successfully have control or full knowledge of your products if you never set foot in the buildings where the product is produced.
I think the best example of a company in our hobby that follows this "boots on the ground" oversight practice is Scott Mann @sdmann of Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot. We see his product updates from the overseas factory when his products are in the production stage. I think it is safe to say that Scott's presence and experience provides quick response to any irregularity that he may see.
I think that is why Scott Mann using the advertising slogan: "IN LIFETIME BRASS"
Hawkshaw posted:This is very scary stuff. Makes me nervous about buying without having it in hand to look over. Thanks for everyone bringing this up.
But even if you have it in hand and it looks good how do you know it won’t crumble apart 6 months or a year later?
Hudson J1e posted:Hawkshaw posted:This is very scary stuff. Makes me nervous about buying without having it in hand to look over. Thanks for everyone bringing this up.
But even if you have it in hand and it looks good how do you know it won’t crumble apart 6 months or a year later?
You don't! 
I never have been much of a gambler so that's why I stopped gambling on modern era train items, in particular die-cast steam locomotives.
AlanRail posted:Unfortunately China is involved in all sorts of manufacturing that is too expensive to produce here.
Not just toys but medical and military parts for the United states. Instead of looking just to intellectual property stealing our Gov should be looking at these issues.
I don't want to get political and I think most will agree that no business was "forced" to put production in China and China has not cornered the market in poor production or manufacturing quality, it can be found everywhere ...including in America. The key and sometimes the hardest part is to find the good companies. Due to their growing reputation for good quality, over time those good companies might expand into new markets or products. This expansion or change might also change what products they make based on revenue - may have to stop making small margin items. Thus "the hunt" for a new supplier begins again and hopefully those "maintained supplier relationships" will help locate the next possible supplier. It is my understanding that one of the main advantages China has is the relatively short lead or set-up time required for a variety of products.
David Eisinger posted:I think that is why Scott Mann using the advertising slogan: "IN LIFETIME BRASS"
Brass, die-cast (remember their "Hi-Iron" products from about 10 yrs ago?), aluminum or plastics; probably Scott Mann made the trip to Asia (China or Korea) to cultivate and maintain relations and also oversee some of the production of his company's products.
Zamak used for model train castings is an alloy with a base metal of Zinc with additional elements of Aluminum, Magnesium and Copper. If the Zamak alloy contains impurities (can we say low cost) then Zinc Pest will be a problem. This problem was eliminated back in the 1940's by the NJ Zinc Company by casting with 99.99% pure zinc. Most PW engines were cast of that alloy. Today 70% of the No. American Zamak castings are 96% zinc and 4% aluminum. This alloy is called Zamak 3 and it doesn't easily deteriorate. There are 7 different grades of Zamak and the one used in Asia is typically Zamak 4 and they produce it cheaply. I'll make the argument that cast parts should be made of brass but they doesn't agree with the low cost manufacturing attractiveness of Chinese manufacturing that produces mainly disposable products.
I deal with 'zinc pest' issues all the time in my restoration business, particularly with pre-war items. What saddens me the most is when potential clients come to me with their 700Es and 763Es steamers, that have deteriorated beyond repair and ask me to fix them- which, of course, I can't..
Other than 'replace the part' I have not yet found a way to actually repair 'zinc pest'. I don't think it'll ever be possible. And, as almost everyone in the model train community knows, new, old stock undamaged 700E & 763E boilers are harder to ferret out than a winning lottery ticket.
But I want to bring up a warning here, regarding post-war Lionel GG-1s, particularly the 1963 Tuscan 'decal solid-stripe' versions. I've seen more than my share of these locos with 'zinc pest' affecting the 622-type motors that GG-1s use, on the bottom motor casting; also many of the twin motor GG-1 power trucks are likewise affected, rendering the loco inoperable..
A word to the wise: Please use caution when purchasing one of these locos, as replacing two motors and two magne-traction power trucks can be very expensive.
The Lionel Corporation was in almost total disarray by 1963, so part assemblies and sub-assemblies may not have been manufactured at the factory, but out-sourced. Also, Lionel's engineering staff had been let go years before, so quality control definitely suffered. Before considering a purchase, look for those tell-tale hairline cracks in the GG-1 truck casting and run, do not walk away from any GG-1 that appears to suffer from 'zinc pest'. Unless, of course, the engine is for sale very cheap and you need it for some of the other parts that are not affected. Chances are, if one of the trucks or motors from the engine are bad, the others will be too. Sometimes a GG-1 that has only been mildly affected with 'zinc pest' will still run; but, guaranteed it will only get worse - and eventually it will be rendered inoperable!
Good luck to all.
-Len Carparelli
mowingman posted:Here is a question, but it may have already been answered. Could a person save that center beam by removing it, and then saturating it with some type of super glue that would soak in and stabilize the part? Just trying to think of a way to minimize the replacement cost.
Jeff
Zinc pest is kind of like rust - it never sleeps. Even after soaking in super-glue, the castings could carry on distorting and disintegrating. With these ongoing problems, I wonder if it would be worthwhile for affected hobbyists to push for 3D-printed replacement parts. It seems like the Chinese casting QC can't ever be guaranteed.
Keystone posted:<big snip>Brass, die-cast (remember their "Hi-Iron" products from about 10 yrs ago?), <snip>
You must know something I don't. I had one of the Sunset High Iron PRR K4s Pacifics. The locomotive and tender were constructed of sheet brass just like regular 3rd Rail products. The only Sunset/3rd Rail diecast piece I am aware of is the NYC Mercury locomotive.
I have used Shapeways to replace the bolsters on my Atlas Reefers. They may even work on Atlas box cars.
https://www.shapeways.com/prod...ght-car-body-bolster
They have gone up in price, I believe they were $4 the first time I purchased one, now they are up to $8 each. It looks like Atlas is conforming the theory of supply and demand.
I hate to see the under frames of the hoppers falling apart. hopefully Atlas will solve this problem. They made a dollar or two when they made the troop sleeper frames available.
Hope this helps.
Richard
Shapeways Is great!
I've had some success creating un-obtainable parts, using them for myself and even making a few bucks when others purchase them directly from shapeways. Some of the cost increase may be due to updates to the pricing and per part cost on the site. That and when a part is popular, the urge to increase the price takes over...
I also had a zinc rot failed sideframe on a Williams FM trainmaster, I checked whether a 1955 Lionel FM trainmaster side frame would fit and indeed it did. There is something to say for the post war Lionel, this engine is 65 years old , all four sideframe castings are free of any defects they look like they we recently cast and painted black.
John Ochab posted:I also had a zinc rot failed sideframe on a Williams FM trainmaster, I checked whether a 1955 Lionel FM trainmaster side frame would fit and indeed it did. There is something to say for the post war Lionel, this engine is 65 years old , all four sideframe castings are free of any defects they look like they we recently cast and painted black.
Made in 'Murica!!
After careful inspection of my atlas hoppers. I have one with the doors with rot and one Rutland with the frame has rot. Guessing all things considered not bad.
Enforcing quality controls is a responsibility of Atlas, Lionel, MTH, et al to assure that the products they buy are as designed to their appropriate specifications. Defective zinc alloy castings should never have gotten into our market place.
so long as the casting process using contaminated zinc if left up completely to the Chinese manufacturer I believe this problem will never go away. One solution may be for the US company to supply the Chinese manufacturer with pure uncontaminated zinc ingots made in the US. But still you can never be assured what may end up in the melting pot.
Dumb Question? Is all Die-cast metal eventually subject to growth and "zinc rot"? I have heard of even postwar FM motor truck gear boxes "growing" so as to make the engine no longer usable. But those are 70 years old not 10.
RDG Fan,
Not a dumb question. The short answer is "No". The long answer is that it depends on the composition of the zinc melt. Most Zimac formulas have a 50ppm upper spec on lead. You exceed that, and the casting is in trouble. I suspect the higher the concentration of lead, the faster the issue will show itself. The issue is very much on a batch to batch basis. Some batches had lead well below the spec. Those will probably never show the issue. Those that are some modicum over the spec will eventually show the issue. The FM motor trucks you mentioned probably fall into this category. Then there is everything else. A lot of 700Es cast in the 1930s are sway backed. This is a clear indication of zinc pest. You will find very few O gauge American Flyer steam engines for the same reason. Almost all of them have succumbed to this issue. During the late 1930s US manufacturers identified the problem and implemented the cure: Keep the lead out! So most US manufactured cast items since then do not exhibit the problem. The issue cropped up when everyone went overseas, particularly China, and to a lesser extent, Korea. They way their manufacturing infrastructure works, there is no QC, and as long as whatever is in the pot melts, it's good to go. Clearly a recipe for disaster, and one we the consumer are paying dearly for.
Chris
LVHR
RDG fan:
Chris [Lehighline] is correct. Although I've not seen FM motor trucks [post war LIONEL anyway] succumb to 'zinc pest', I'd never rule it out 100%; careful evaluation on a case-by-case basis is your best bet when purchasing items that you feel may be suspect. Although most early pre-war items [particularly frames and steam chests] are highly susceptible, because zinc die-casting was in its infancy in that era, there are still many that have survived; good, climate-controlled storage over the years helps to preserve die-cast items that may have otherwise fallen victim to 'zinc pest'.
AS far as later [post-war and modern] issues with 'zinc pest', well, there really should be no reason for it excepting laziness and carelessness in the manufacturing process; the problems with impurities and such have all been worked out and careful manufacturing procedures should have eliminated this issue long ago. I strongly believe that in LIONEL's case with the 1963 GG-1s, quality control was not nearly what it used to be ten years prior.
Alas, we don't live in a perfect world.
As an analogy: if I painted F-3 shells over dirty, greasy, non-primed material, you can guarantee the paint would not adhere; many folks realize that Lionel had issue with early 1948 #2333 New York Central F-3s which can often be found with flaking paint; the culprit for poor paint adherence is most often poor preparation. I learned long ago to thoroughly clean and prime coat everything we paint!
-Len Carparelli
