What are your thoughts on the new Lionel mogul running,detail etc. pros and cons?
Dave
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I have one. I think it is a nice engine but not $600 nice.
No real coal load.
Noticeable "lurch" when running - see other thread. Lionel is aware and this is common. Whether or not we'll see a fix is a whole other story.... Once above speed step 30 or so, it is very smooth
Sound is terrific
Overall, it's OK. Nice engine but, again, not $600 nice.
I regret purchasing mine for the issues already mentioned.
Slow speed operation is a joke. The lurch is still there after speed step 30, just not as noticeable.
I have faith, Lionel will make it right as another 0-8-0 with AF board type debacle Lionel can not afford again.
Surfire,
Order the traction tires free of charge from Lionel as stated by Dave O on my mogul thread. Should fix your issues above speed step 20
Its a disaster. IMO Lionel "rushed" this one out to market. This seems to be ocurring more often.
It should have gotten a real coal load, and "back driveable" gears to boot. Every other legacy steamer offered has back drivable gears and the real coal loads started on TMCC stuff back in the mid 2000's.
The back drivable gears are a key feature for smooth operation, especially when it comes to lashups. It allows the locos to coast while operating.
No excuses, every Legacy loco was once a TMCC loco, no reason this one shouldn't have gotten the full "legacy goodies" as well.
The poor performance is unacceptable and its looking like theres no "easy fix" on this one.
All with a hefty price tag to boot. 
RickO posted:Its a disaster. IMO Lionel "rushed" this one out to market. This seems to be ocurring more often. How did they rush? Dave has stated production samples don't have this issue and not all do. This one is last falls catalog, so how does a year account for your rushed statement
It should have gotten a real coal load, and "back driveable" gears to boot. Every other legacy steamer offered has back drivable gears and the real coal loads started on TMCC stuff back in the mid 2000's. Back driveable gear, how would this of helped?
The back drivable gears are a key feature for smooth operation, especially when it comes to lashups. It allows the locos to coast while operating. Where's the prof?
No excuses, every Legacy loco was once a TMCC loco, no reason this one shouldn't have gotten the full "legacy goodies" as well. What Legacy goodies is it missing?
The poor performance is unacceptable and its looking like theres no "easy fix" on this one. This one we can agree on.
All with a hefty price tag to boot.
Guess I can write off the mogul Off my York list.
My thoughts, I hope that when I get mine back that it runs & performs like it should. If I doesn't I will have to consider canceling my pre-orders on the Pennsy E-6 Atlantic & NYC S-2 Electric. I wonder how many others feel that way? Receiving a new Legacy locomotive used to be a big thrill, you would unbox it, get it oiled up, add smoke fluid, program it and wow! Now its cross you fingers when you power it up and get ready to be disappointed. To most of us these things are nothing new and it can be expected to happen occasionally, however you only get one chance to make a first impression on a new customer.
Waiting with fingers crossed.
I have the TMCC Canadian National one and it runs and sounds great. No problems. I got it a few years ago at YORK, NIB for $400. Also I had picked up a conventional Bethlehem Steel Mogul and that too runs great. Just sayin, for what its worth.
david1 posted:Guess I can write off the mogul Off my York list.
Look for an older one. They look the same and run great. Two chuffs but with the small drivers they sound like they are moving much faster. They can be found for just over half the price of the new one.
Pete
superwarp1 posted:RickO posted:Its a disaster. IMO Lionel "rushed" this one out to market. This seems to be ocurring more often. How did they rush? Dave has stated production samples don't have this issue and not all do. This one is last falls catalog, so how does a year account for your rushed statement.
Dave said his "production sample" doesn't do it.
I understand the forum does not represent everyone in the hobby, so, forum members just so happen to buy all of the defective ones?? No its not every O-guager, but I've found the forum to be a pretty good baraometer of issues across a product line.
I've seen other videos on youtube showing lurching moguls posted by folks who have yet to complain. but.... wheres the guy saying" mine runs fine"????
As far as rushed,See my next statement.
It should have gotten a real coal load, and "back driveable" gears to boot. Every other legacy steamer offered has back drivable gears and the real coal loads started on TMCC stuff back in the mid 2000's. Back driveable gear, how would this of helped?
See my next statement
The back drivable gears are a key feature for smooth operation, especially when it comes to lashups. It allows the locos to coast while operating. Where's the prof?
Legacy locos have the slowest starting speeds in O guage. In two identical gearsets, the backdriveable gears will typically be geared lower. As far as the lashup part, ask someone who does or "has worked" for Lionel. Lionel didn't use back driveable gears just for the heck of it.
No excuses, every Legacy loco was once a TMCC loco, no reason this one shouldn't have gotten the full "legacy goodies" as well. What Legacy goodies is it missing?
See my second statement. While not "legacy" persay, these were standard legacy loco equipment/ features that were left off.
Oh, and I almost forgot, the TMCC moguls even had the tender chain detail not on the legacy version. Yea, minor detail, but detail non the less, ya know, standard issue stuff on your MTH locos.
The poor performance is unacceptable and its looking like theres no "easy fix" on this one. This one we can agree on.
All with a hefty price tag to boot.
Under $600, but lacking equipment and features and poor operation doesn't make it a good or fair deal.
Thats certainly too much for a Mikado, I bought the heavy that at least had new boiler tooling for several hundred less.
No ill intent Gary, I hope everything works out well with your mogul. As a Lionel "guy" I'm just disappointed in the direction they've been going.
All brands have problems from time to time. Lionel has problems with nearly every catalog, and the overwhelming number of dissatisfied posters is proof to that.
My "best" Lionel is still the late TMCC and early legacy stuff.
I have the older TMCC NYC and CN Moguls... very smooth runners. Unique whistles, chains on the tender trucks, great details... so I decided not to purchase.
BTW- can Alex M. help? A colleague in our club noticed the center drivers have excessive play cross car when the motor worm engages the main driver axle. Could there be an issue with the journal bearings? Or possible a gear mesh problem? I don't have one I can tear apart yet ... and for 600.00 I will wait for a second hand one that needs a home.
They sure sound great, and I like the fire box flicker...
Ah... nice sparklie !
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I'll buy a conventional version; strip it down; stick a TCS wow-sound DCC decoder in it; call it better than new.
Surefire posted:Slow speed operation is a joke. The lurch is still there after speed step 30, just not as noticeable.
Most likely has the BEMC in it like the tethered 0-8-0 they came out with last year
Expensive! Until they get this parts issue right, the wallet is done for them. Seondary market for me, I know the stuff runs right!
Besides, I can't get a simple smoke stack for a Legacy 2 Northern. The reply from Lionel is until we rerun that engine, it is long gone. NOT ACCEPTABLE ANSWER! It is a smoke stack that they can produce from a mold they have.
Hope the Lionel folks read this. I will be at York and not happy one iota with that answer.
Ted, who used to be a big Lionel guy but MTH does make a LOT of affordable nice pieces. Period and done ranting.
I really wanted two of these jewels to double-head for a New England milk train. But the poor reviews here have stopped me in my tracks.
When is Lionel going to learn that anything in their "full Legacy" line-up is gonna be scrutinized by enthusiasts, and they're not gonna tolerate the corner-cutting going on with these products. Stuff has gotta be right when we get it -- not with some promised customer service fix that may be months or years down the line. Not on my dollar -- especially for what we're spending on these products.
I passed on last year's Steel City Switcher set because of the BEMC nonsense. And I also passed on the rolling stock set break-ups, because dealers tried to get $125+ each for gondolas and flat cars. 
Newsflash for dealers: premium prices for set break-up cars went out the door back in the MPC/LTI collector days. So let 'em collect dust until reality sets in.
Now if this year's Moguls are a repeat of last year's 0-8-0's debacle, that's unforgivable. And it cost Lionel TWO units from my perspective... and I'm sure a few others here are passing on them as well for similar reasons.
Sounds like I may be better off snagging a TMCC unit from years ago.
David
From a thread a while ago.
The Moguls are already on the water with the AC-9, LC+ Mikado, and E8 along with a ton of rolling stock. I for one feel we're shipping stuff pretty well this year.
And no, the Mogul will not have the BEMC. As stated before, no O scale Legacy engine will again. Either the RCMC fits in or it won't be made.
Dave Olson
Engineering Manager
Lionel LLC
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I hate to ask a stupid question, but can someone tell me what back drivable means and why it matters? Thanks.
Back driveable means you can turn the drive wheels and the motor will turn. Its dependent on the angles of the motor worm and worm gear.
If you intend to run the engine by itself it makes no difference. If you want to do a lash up then it allows some speed difference between two engines and lessens the tendency to fight each other.
Not a big deal or deal breaker in my book.
Pete
Yes, I do recall that post about the Moguls not having the BEMC, which I found to be very encouraging at the time when I read it. But now we're hearing about less-than-smooth slow-speed performance anyway. Why is that? 
For me, stellar slow-speed performance is table stakes for a Legacy locomotive today. Even more so than fancy steam features. Any signs of lurching are a show-stopper. End of story.
David
This is why I never preorder. Looks like I will be looking for the tmcc version.
Hey David don't buy all the tmcc moguls, leave one for me.
Dave
wmcwood posted:From a thread a while ago.
And no, the Mogul will not have the BEMC. As stated before, no O scale Legacy engine will again. Either the RCMC fits in or it won't be made.
Dave Olson
Engineering Manager
Lionel LLC
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I missed this thread...... My bad.... but that is good to know!
david1 posted:This is why I never preorder. Looks like I will be looking for the tmcc version.
Hey David don't buy all the tmcc moguls, leave one for me.
Dave
I really would like to pre-order the #68 E-6 Atlantic but after reading through this thread I may hold off.. Not sure what went wrong at Lionel? My recent purchase of the B-6 switcher and Consolidation both run wonderful at slow speeds. No issues at all. I would have bought that Mogul had it been in a road name I run...I guess I got lucky this time...
Joe
I don't see where anyone mentioned that @Dave Olson and @Lionel Dean are looking into this issue. Why I agree it's not a good thing that folks are having issues it should be noted that Lionel is not ignoring the problem.
I only have one engine I bought new, an MTH F7 that Mr. Muffin was trying to clear out the last of his stock. My two Legacy locomotives were bought used by good Forum members. I would like a Mogul because of my tight curves, but will watch and see. I'm sure Marty is right that Lionel is looking into these issues. Thank you everyone for your input.
Marty - I believe Dave replied in previous thread that he was looking into the problem. And I KNOW they will get down to the matter or somebody will. It could be as simple as a bushing needs a shim, or maybe a worm gear that has the wrong angle to axel gear.
I remember the EM1 issue with spinning drive axle issue... it was an easy fix, just need someone to root cause it. If you bought one be patient... the good news is they are ALL under warranty. 
Why would an older TMCC version - presumably the same casting and drive wheel configuration - run smooth and the Legacy version have lurching? Or, is there a mechanical (non-electrical) difference in the new Moguls?
J Daddy posted:Marty - I believe Dave replied in previous thread that he was looking into the problem. And I KNOW they will get down to the matter or somebody will. It could be as simple as a bushing needs a shim, or maybe a worm gear that has the wrong angle to axel gear.
I remember the EM1 issue with spinning drive axle issue... it was an easy fix, just need someone to root cause it. If you bought one be patient... the good news is they are ALL under warranty.
Yes Dave did but not everyone sees that thread. I think as much as a disappointment folks have its worth mentioning here in this thread that Lionel is looking into it. I have no issue with folks discussing the issues and being upset, at the same time it's not like they are dropping the ball on this. Maybe later they'll find nothing can be done but at this stage its too early to tell.
Lionel will never live down the BEMF engine (and they shouldn't) but as Dave said never again in a scale Legacy engine.
If someone has one of these, I'd like to see what's under the hood. If it doesn't have the RCMC and the flywheel tach, I'd expect what I'm hearing.
I was going to pre-order the Atlantic, but I think I'll wait until dealers have them and see what they actually perform like.
Paul Kallus posted:Why would an older TMCC version - presumably the same casting and drive wheel configuration - run smooth and the Legacy version have lurching? Or, is there a mechanical (non-electrical) difference in the new Moguls?
Paul, it was posted, on another thread that by replacing the wheels and rods on the Legacy engine with those from an older run that the engine ran smooth. I think its safe to assume that there is a mechanical issue.
BEMF is only an issue if you want to do a lash up with another Legacy engine. It has no implications to do a lash up with an identical engine and is no more problematic than trying to Lash up a Legacy engine with any TMCC engine.
Some make a big deal of not being able to run .25 scale MPH but how many real trains run that slow? Handcars are twenty times faster than that.
Pete
gunrunnerjohn posted:If someone has one of these, I'd like to see what's under the hood. If it doesn't have the RCMC and the flywheel tach, I'd expect what I'm hearing.
I was going to pre-order the Atlantic, but I think I'll wait until dealers have them and see what they actually perform like.
Sorry John, my favorite saying again. Have you been living under a rock the past few weeks?
Pic of the inside on my thread. It's full Legacy.
Dave Olson said we have answer before York, well it's York week and no answer. Not surprising, I didn't expect one until after York.
Norton posted:Paul Kallus posted:Why would an older TMCC version - presumably the same casting and drive wheel configuration - run smooth and the Legacy version have lurching? Or, is there a mechanical (non-electrical) difference in the new Moguls?
Paul, it was posted, on another thread that by replacing the wheels and rods on the Legacy engine with those from an older run that the engine ran smooth. I think its safe to assume that there is a mechanical issue.
BEMF is only an issue if you want to do a lash up with another Legacy engine. It has no implications to do a lash up with an identical engine and is no more problematic than trying to Lash up a Legacy engine with any TMCC engine.
Some make a big deal of not being able to run .25 scale MPH but how many real trains run that slow? Handcars are twenty times faster than that.
Pete
I think that it is a very big deal.
After running TMCC 1 locos for 15 years and seeing what MTH was providing with PS2, I was glad to be able to finally make the jump to Legacy products specifically for great slow speed operation and the ability to lash up any combo of locos.
MartyE posted:I don't see where anyone mentioned that @Dave Olson and @Lionel Dean are looking into this issue. Why I agree it's not a good thing that folks are having issues it should be noted that Lionel is not ignoring the problem.
All fine and good Marty, but supposedly, these were all tested,so....theoretically there shouldn't be a problem.....right?
MartyE posted:it's not like they are dropping the ball on this.
Yes it is. And again
RickO posted:All fine and good Marty, but supposedly, these were all tested,so....theoretically there shouldn't be a problem.....right?
I have no idea if they were tested. I seem to remember that being stated.
RickO posted:MartyE posted:it's not like they are dropping the ball on this.
Yes it is. And again
No. Sorry if Dave and Dean let everyone hang that would be dropping the ball. They are making a sincere effort to find the root of the issue. I'm not defending the issue but until CS comes back with an answer I'll keep a wait and see attitude. I know not popular around here.
I guess I should have clarified Marty.
Dave and Dean didn't drop the ball but whoever at "Lionel" makes the production and testing decisions did, once again.
Dave and Dean get the "fun" job of cleaning up the mess. Especially fun if every mogul produced needs to go back to Lionel to correct the problem.
Norton posted:BEMF is only an issue if you want to do a lash up with another Legacy engine. It has no implications to do a lash up with an identical engine and is no more problematic than trying to Lash up a Legacy engine with any TMCC engine.
Not completely true. The LionMaster Class A pretty much has only two speeds, a quick trot or warp speed. I can't run mine over speed step 24 otherwise it's too fast. Over speed step 100 and she'll come off of the track on O72 curves. I videoed it and sent it to Lionel, and got told it was functioning normal. For an O31 locomotive that you can't even crack the throttle on for it's designed curves seems rather crazy and poorly thought through for Lionel. If they had geared it lower, then it wouldn't be an issue, so it's a combo of the gearing and the speed control.
As for the Mogul, my LHS still hasn't called me to say it's in, perhaps it's because they pre-lube and run every locomotive and have noticed the lurch. I'm going to try to drop in on my way home today and see what's up.
"Real coal loads" typically look fake to me - much of the time, the coal in a real locomotive's tender is covered with coal dust to some degree or other, giving it a flatter look. The "real coal" in the models is often sparkly. Of course, Dullcote will solve that.
My NYC TMCC 2-6-0 has been good so far; the "coal" looks fine - but I still need to Dullcote it.
I just don't find the coal load to be an issue, in general. All methods can look just fine, as well as have issues: plastic (great for TMCC conversions!), cast- or molded-in, actual coal. The execution is critical.
Here's a coal load on my scratch-built (uh, can you tell...?) Garratt from some years back. It's rocks (similar to aquarium stone), glued to some styrene with lots white glue and painted flat black, then the whole thing is secured in the tender bunker. You could use a similar technique to improve the looks of cast-in coal loads if they are objectionable.
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Thanks for the explanation, Norton.
Am not trying to be a budinski here, but why would Lionel use a different set of drivers and rods for presumably the same engine produced in the past? And, So I know a little about what I am reading, what is BEMF and RCMC stand for and what do they do?
Wow isn't this interesting. Earlier this year I wrote that my GG1 had running problems (VisionLine). Most everyone told me if your not satisfied send it back and get your money back. Now we have a mogul with problems and a lot of people are worked up. There is more people worked up about a 600 dollar loco than there was about a VisionLine which cost 1300 dollars. Well I hope they find a fix because they never found one for my GG1. They just basically told me they are all like that and there isn't anything we can do. Now just imagine if they do that to all there problem childs. Like your mogul, well we can't fix it so if you don't like it send it back and do without. I think it's time we say look we are tired of this and we want better product. And yes we can't blame Dave and Dean this started before they got there hands on it. Sorry I'm still upset about my GG.
