So...are the Vision Line Big Boy and Cab Forward the pinnacle of Lionel production? What could they possibly do to top these two engines?
Will they just spend the rest of our baby-boomer lives re-introducing all their other locomotives in the Vision Line?
What could they possibly do to keep all you deep-pockets purchasers happy? I know you want more and better...what could it be?
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I still like the Vision Challenger best among Vision.
But let me make a point about "pinnacle." Vision is similar to Ferrari and similar cars - yes its the top dog in features and performance, but it should be. Not really any great accomplishment to make a great loco for $2,700 list price, or car for $270 grand in my opinion.
I think the Lionchief Plus locos are arguably the pinnacle of Lionel's accomplishments. I paid $250 for my lastest GP7, not over $315 for any of the four steamers I have. They run exceptionally well, pull good, have good sound, smoke, and likes. Producing all that at those prices seems to me worthy of more respect.
As far as I'm concerned, the "pinnacle of Lionel production" has been the UP FEF-3 Legacy model of #844. Why?
1) The model is CORRECT, i.e. it even has the correct, enclosed, UP all-weather cab. The latest Vision Line 4000 class models do NOT.
2) It has the most accurate/correct, "quillable" whistle that Lionel has ever put in a steam locomotive model. The latest Vision Line 4000 class model whistle is not quite as "quillable".
3) Smoke performance, for those who use it, is outstanding, as well as properly synchronized with the exhaust sound.
4) The physical details of the model are correct for the later "in regular service" days of 844, plus throughout most of the "excursion service" era, i.e. prior to the addition of the second turbo-generator (that equates to more than 40 years of its service). The latest Vision Line 4000 class models are ONLY reflective of the "as delivered" era and do NOT reflect most of the years that UP 4000s were in service, nor as they appear in parks & museums today.
5) There is no whistle steam, nor blowdown "smoke" effects to give trouble in the future.
Maybe even prewar!
Tom
I personally think the goal line will keep moving. As good as the Vision Line BB is, and the wonderful FEF-3 that Hot Water described, what is coming down the pipeline will no doubt get better and better with new features and technologies.
Great time to be in the O-Gauge hobby.
Lol. 1954
I will second Lee's interesting points! The LC Plus locos are a wonderful combination of features. Lionel can top the LC+ with LC-A+ that includes whistle-steam! Ken
As far as I'm concerned, the "pinnacle of Lionel production" has been the UP FEF-3 Legacy model of #844. Why?
1) The model is CORRECT, i.e. it even has the correct, enclosed, UP all-weather cab. The latest Vision Line 4000 class models do NOT.
2) It has the most accurate/correct, "quillable" whistle that Lionel has ever put in a steam locomotive model. The latest Vision Line 4000 class model whistle is not quite as "quillable".
3) Smoke performance, for those who use it, is outstanding, as well as properly synchronized with the exhaust sound.
4) The physical details of the model are correct for the later "in regular service" days of 844, plus throughout most of the "excursion service" era, i.e. prior to the addition of the second turbo-generator (that equates to more than 40 years of its service). The latest Vision Line 4000 class models are ONLY reflective of the "as delivered" era and do NOT reflect most of the years that UP 4000s were in service, nor as they appear in parks & museums today.
5) There is no whistle steam, nor blowdown "smoke" effects to give trouble in the future.
Great time to be in the O-Gauge hobby.
As far as I'm concerned there's lots more room for improvement, especially in the accessories department.
I propose a new Gomez Addams Signature Series line of exciting, realistic bridges and trestles.
Bruce
As far as I'm concerned, the "pinnacle of Lionel production" has been the UP FEF-3 Legacy model of #844. Why?
1) The model is CORRECT, i.e. it even has the correct, enclosed, UP all-weather cab. The latest Vision Line 4000 class models do NOT.
2) It has the most accurate/correct, "quillable" whistle that Lionel has ever put in a steam locomotive model. The latest Vision Line 4000 class model whistle is not quite as "quillable".
3) Smoke performance, for those who use it, is outstanding, as well as properly synchronized with the exhaust sound.
4) The physical details of the model are correct for the later "in regular service" days of 844, plus throughout most of the "excursion service" era, i.e. prior to the addition of the second turbo-generator (that equates to more than 40 years of its service). The latest Vision Line 4000 class models are ONLY reflective of the "as delivered" era and do NOT reflect most of the years that UP 4000s were in service, nor as they appear in parks & museums today.
5) There is no whistle steam, nor blowdown "smoke" effects to give trouble in the future.
Are the VL Big Boys accurately detailed for when they were delivered?
I remember a few years ago when the Acela was the king of the mountain. Nothing could be better. Now it's the Big Boy. We'll meet back here next year and ask the same question. The answer's will be different.
To make Mr. Korlings prediction come true, though, I'll vote for the postwar GP-7. That Lionel engine has been produced through all of Lionel's era's, with all kinds of modern technology in them, and reproduced by other companies, and they all sell. Those molds must be made of magic. The GP-7 pops up year after year after year. Usually affordable too, unlike the F-3's.
Are the VL Big Boys accurately detailed for when they were delivered?
Yes. But none of the surviving locomotives look like that any longer.
I still like the Vision Challenger best among Vision.
But let me make a point about "pinnacle." Vision is similar to Ferrari and similar cars - yes its the top dog in features and performance, but it should be. Not really any great accomplishment to make a great loco for $2,700 list price, or car for $270 grand in my opinion.
I think the Lionchief Plus locos are arguably the pinnacle of Lionel's accomplishments. I paid $250 for my lastest GP7, not over $315 for any of the four steamers I have. They run exceptionally well, pull good, have good sound, smoke, and likes. Producing all that at those prices seems to me worthy of more respect.
Outstanding point Lee! I have more respect for an outstanding car at $50,000 than I do for one at $250K+. For that kind of money.... it BETTER be incredible!!!
I would like to see Vision Line features incorporated into a 4-4-0 General style engine, with whistle steam, a swinging bell, and a sweet-sounding, quillable whistle... maybe even smoke emissions from the steam chest. That would be bordering on the pinnacle for me. But the technology might need to advance a bit more in order to fit all of these features into such a small engine and tender.
The 844 in Greyhound Scheme is the first Legacy Steamer I purchased. I agree with Hot Water, the quilable whistle is second to none. I never get tired of hearing it and quilling it. The engine runs like a northern should, flawlessly!!!
Are the VL Big Boys accurately detailed for when they were delivered?
Yes. But none of the surviving locomotives look like that any longer.
Perhaps somewhere down the road Lionel will do the in-service/upgraded appliance/modified versions. I'd venture a guess that would happen around the time 4014 hits the road under its own power, but I don't think holding my breath for X number of years to witness that would be a wise decision on my part - an updated Lionel model will probably win the race to reality... 
Didn't the Mickey Mouse hand car save Lionel during the depression? Sometimes the pinnacle isn't the most extravagant!
Rich
I have little doubt that the Vision line and Lion Chief locos may indeed represent the current pinnacle of Lionel's import business but, let's face it, the real pinnacle of actual Lionel production has to be the "Golden Years," 1950 - 1959. I also don't think it's a coincidence that their stuff was made stateside back then.
Pete
In my opinion, pending your wants and needs the Vision Line and the Lionmaster line (folks every catalog still beg for its return of scale items at a traditional size and value).
I personally think the goal line will keep moving. As good as the Vision Line BB is, and the wonderful FEF-3 that Hot Water described, what is coming down the pipeline will no doubt get better and better with new features and technologies.
Great time to be in the O-Gauge hobby.
Maybe even prewar!
Tom
YES!!!!
>>2) It has the most accurate/correct, "quillable" whistle that Lionel has ever put in a steam locomotive model. The latest Vision Line 4000 class model whistle is not quite as "quillable"<<
I agree with Hot Water. Had a chance to listen to both engines side by side yesterday.
The BB has beautiful sound and it is variable. Resonance is outstanding with three separated speakers.
To compare the #844 to the BB is a little like comparing a sounds made from a blast horn to a whistle recorded by the Boston Philharmonic.
The FEF sounds are in your face brash, more of what you'd expect to hear but both are outstanding.
I really don't know which one I'd pick if I had to make a choice.
Joe
Late prewar era for me. Modern-era offers unparalleled fun to be sure but here are my prewar reasons:
*A mass produced scale Hudson in O and OO
*Invention of a whistle remotely activated
*Invention of an operating (non-prototypical) coupler
*Teledyne coupler
*Interactive remotely operated accessories
The legacy of almost all the above inspiring generations of hobbyists keeping parts readily available to this day.
Quality was consistent.
All the above was accomplished within a ten year period by individuals loyal to an employer who recognized talent.
IMHO Lionel was firing on all cylinders during this period.
Didn't the Mickey Mouse hand car save Lionel during the depression? Sometimes the pinnacle isn't the most extravagant!
Rich
... I also don't think it's a coincidence that their stuff was made stateside back then.
Pete
Amen!
Yes, things were actually manufactured in the USA and people cared about the products they made.
I'll say again that I am partial to prewar, but whether prewar or postwar, properly maintained, most of us can keep these things running for another 100 years. That is not a big stretch since most of my locos are already in the 75-ish age range now. How many of today's releases will make the 10-20 year mark? See the light and come convert to prewar or postwar!
Tom
The assumption is that this pinnacle is based on what criteria? There is no answer to this that isn't subject to personal tastes.
In light of this this, it makes sense that Lionel plays it safe with what is modeled as there is no real consensus so they add more play value with gadgetry.
Costs rise, the menu is essentially unchanged.
And so it goes.
I would really like to see Manufacturing return to the States....but I don't think it's fair to take an old Scout type loco and compare it to any of the Legacy Steamers that are being made today. If you haven't had a chance to do so yet, take a look at the parts diagram of a Legacy Steamer vs. a Post War......whatever. It's apples to oranges, IMHO.
What I don't think gets mentioned enough is that if you take a Legacy engine and run it in Conventional Mode, it drastically outperforms anything made before 1990 or so, IMHO. Truthfully, so will most TMCC engines....some of which are coming up on 15 years of service time already....and are still working fine.
AC-9, AC-9, AC-9, AC-9...
Oh come on now, everyone knows the pinnacle of Lionel production was the MPC era with the introduction of the Mighty Sound of Steam!
Oh come on now, everyone knows the pinnacle of Lionel production was the MPC era with the introduction of the Mighty Sound of Steam!
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