The Public

 And a press release to the locals, can spark an article in the local papers/tv/radio - all for the price of a stamp

That's if they choose to run a story. That is not a given.
There is a better chance if the press release is written well enough to be published without significant editing.

And yet World's Greatest Hobby can pull in 20,000+ on a weekend - with advertising.

Are you saying that the York train show should turn into a World's Greatest Hobby show?
I wonder how far TCA members would travel to attend? I think my max would be about 30 minutes.

Ever been to the annual show in Springfield, Ma? They pull very large numbers too. Last I knew, there is a waiting list for tables. It's a great show for the general public and smaller gauge model railroaders. Not much there for toy train collectors.

C W Burfle posted:

 

Are you saying that the York train show should turn into a World's Greatest Hobby show?

Where will new members come from?  

If one day of York turns into a WGH show, the TCA will have to close the office for a day to count the money.

I've posted before, York will never be everything to everyone and should not be made to be. My Grandfather took me to my first York in 1982, and I bought my first Std ga engine from Bob & Bonnie McCoy with money I earned from my paper route. When he passed, and I inherited his collection, I joined the TCA.

A few years ago now, I went to a WGH show in Oaks, PA and swore never to go to another. WGH seems to cater to a very family oriented demographic, plenty of stuff for young families to see and do, lots of layouts, 'Thomas' stuff, entry level sets, etc. Traffic to the event was backed up for miles, long lines to get in, lots of kids and strollers, very crowded. Stuff was very overpriced because young families (IMO) not familiar with the hobby didn't know any better.

York is not that. I don't want York to ever be that. I see York as a premium event for the more serious hobbyist who is expecting to see more premium items for sale (and maybe some pure junk, but I digress). It isn't that York is anti-family, but I go to York to see tables of trains, and talk to vendors, and meet friends. A newcomer thinking that there'll be all kinds of stuff to keep them and their kids entertained for a Saturday is going to be disappointed at the York experience, and won't come out to that kind of event.

Let York be York. I agree more advertising needs to be done to 'attract the public', and yes I saw several wrist bands in the Orange Hall last Friday (10/20/17). But don't be upset if they don't come in droves. Let WGH be WGH. That kind of show has its place but not for me. Maybe I'm more of a choo choo snob later in life now. Let Greenberg be Greenberg. I like Greenburg too. I've found some cool stuff at the Greenburg Edison NJ show. Kinda a middle ground between the boutique York and WGH.  

BMT-Express posted:

If one day of York turns into a WGH show, the TCA will have to close the office for a day to count the money.

You miss the whole point of the York meet. No thank you to another WGH show.

CJ Meyers posted:

A few years ago now, I went to a WGH show in Oaks, PA and swore never to go to another. WGH seems to cater to a very family oriented demographic, plenty of stuff for young families to see and do, lots of layouts, 'Thomas' stuff, entry level sets, etc. Traffic to the event was backed up for miles, long lines to get in, lots of kids and strollers, very crowded. Stuff was very overpriced because young families (IMO) not familiar with the hobby didn't know any better.

You doubtless went to the first WGH show in the Oaks location, that was a nightmare!  It's much more organized now, and the traffic jams are a thing from the past.  Several years ago we had our modular layout at the Oaks show, it was a lot of fun and a lot of folks got to enjoy a number of really good modular layouts.

You're judging the show by one screwed up example.

christopher N&W posted:

BMT-Express posted:

If one day of York turns into a WGH show, the TCA will have to close the office for a day to count the money.

You miss the whole point of the York meet. No thank you to another WGH show.

You miss the whole point of my comment.  If the TCA could do the numbers of a WGH by advertising, they might even expand the membership.   Otherwise watch the attendance at York continue to dwindle.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

You doubtless went to the first WGH show in the Oaks location, that was a nightmare!  It's much more organized now, and the traffic jams are a thing from the past.  Several years ago we had our modular layout at the Oaks show, it was a lot of fun and a lot of folks got to enjoy a number of really good modular layouts.

You're judging the show by one screwed up example.

Unfortunately that one inaugural screwed up example got me to decide I never wanted any part of that show.  As close as I live (probably 35 minutes on a weekend day), I've never been to it.

I think I initially intended to go to the first one, then when it was so newsworthy, I felt lucky I got sidetracked and didn't go.

Maybe someday.  I would guess one might be coming up this winter sometime at Oaks, but I'm not sure.

-Dave

BMT-Express posted:

C W Burfle posted:

Advertising can be very expensive.
A bunch of participants in the Dealer Halls were calling for the show to be opened to the public. What did they do to spread the word?

And yet World's Greatest Hobby can pull in 20,000+ on a weekend - with advertising.

 

When the WGHS came to Philadelphia about 10 years ago there were many radio ads, newspaper ads, and on the highway, near Oaks, a digital billboard. They pulled 45,000 people over the 2 days. Traffic was so bad, the State Police closed the Oaks exit to the show.

If you want to see a nice balance between layouts and vendors take a look at Trainfest in Milwaukee, WI coming up next month. 

 WGH is more like "train theater". I had some fun, but was highly dissapointed there was so little "swap meet" flavor to it. 

 Some folks have no idea the power advertising has to GREATLY improve a buisness. IMO, you can't afford not to. Especially after decades of telling the locals "Sorry, it's a club event". It will take years to erase that perception, ads would greatly speed the transition.

   York was an "exclusive" event for a reason, the visiting public got in the way of serious train collecting at shows.  With both groups numbers lower, it seems natural to move closer to an "open door" policy.

   Having the show closer to Christmas just means it is more likely to be "snowed out". Ever been to a big show on a snow day?  Empty!

The spring and fall is ideal for travelers.

turbgine posted:

If you want to see a nice balance between layouts and vendors take a look at Trainfest in Milwaukee, WI coming up next month. 

A little too far for me to drive, over 13 hours one-way...

There is a train show this weekend 60 miles from my house.  That's going to be the closest one of the year.   It's an open train show with all gauges.  

I just got home Sunday night at 11pm driving 27 hours to get home from York.   I thought maybe I'll go down to that show this weekend.  

Then a rational thought popped in my head, "What could possibly be there, that wasn't at York".

Nope, I'll just wait till April York.  There, I will see more trains for sale in one spot than 500+ WGH shows.  There will most likely be multiple pieces of each thing i want, giving me more choices and a better selection.  In the end, it's a better shopping experience for the buyer.

BMT-Express posted:

christopher N&W posted:

BMT-Express posted:

If one day of York turns into a WGH show, the TCA will have to close the office for a day to count the money.

You miss the whole point of the York meet. No thank you to another WGH show.

You miss the whole point of my comment.  If the TCA could do the numbers of a WGH by advertising, they might even expand the membership.   Otherwise watch the attendance at York continue to dwindle.

Your follow up comment is a far, far cry from your initial comment, no wonder.

Moonson posted:

I'd love to hear any observations any of you might have aboutthe public being admitted to the Meet, albeit it on certain days and to certain halls.  In April I attended as a member on FRI, and this Oct was SAT.  I did not specifically look for wristbands, but at times did see a few:  Guesstimate, approximately 10-20 wristbands at each with what appeared to be slightly more at this SAT's show compared to spring FRI.  No one seemed to be harmed by the occasional stroller.  I don't feel the good weather was a negative.  You can rationalize weather a hundred ways but there are so many variables that pull for our recreational attention and dollars that for the first or second time of an indoor show you can't blame it on the rain ...or sun.

I agree with all who mentioned the lack of advertising (print, radio, TV and online).  The TCA and EDiv along with each mfr may have posted about this on their facebook page, but IMO that is just preaching to the choir and does not in any way reach out to the supposed target general public.  The show is the responsibility of the EDiv with support from the TCA.  Did either produce or pay for online advertisements via facebook, google or twitter with metadata to have their meet better noticed or appear higher in related online searches?  I receive both the Harrisburg Patriot and Phila. Inquirer Sunday newspapers.  In the month leading up to this (and the April) meet/show I did not see one print advertisement related to the EDiv TCA York meet.  Nor did I see any billboards (like I saw for the various outdoor/RV/camping/gun & knife shows held throughout the year.  FWIW, I did see print and hear radio ads for the World's Greatest Hobby show at The Oaks (King of Prussia), PA.

What difference did it appear to make?  I agree with those that stated the public was a "no harm" event.  IMHO, it is too soon to make an informed value or impact judgement.  One thing is certain; the EDivTCA will have actual public attendance numbers to start to make meet comparisons and possibly track any related new memberships.  EDivTCA can NOT provide actual member attendance only member and their family member admission tickets issued.  Table reservations (dealer/member) are hard numbers that can be compared.  The limited public admission will take many cycles to possibly be effective - but at this stage, it might be too little, too late with possibly negative consequences to TCA renewals.

Are there any vendors who feel it helped with the bottom-line/profit/sales ?  N/A

And as a hobbyist, how did you feel about their presence?  I think the public's admittance to the dealer halls was a no harm change that can possibly lead to more people getting involved in model railroading.  However, the current admission pricing can eventually lead to a decline in TCA memberships by those that joined only to go to York.  Yes, the TCA is a wonderful group and has something to offer the serious collector but arguably to many modern operators it is cheaper to pass on the TCA membership and go as a public attendee as long as there are dealers attending that have product to sell.

FrankM, Layout Refinements, & Moon Township, USA.

christopher N&W posted:

BMT-Express posted:

christopher N&W posted:

BMT-Express posted:

If one day of York turns into a WGH show, the TCA will have to close the office for a day to count the money.

You miss the whole point of the York meet. No thank you to another WGH show.

You miss the whole point of my comment.  If the TCA could do the numbers of a WGH by advertising, they might even expand the membership.   Otherwise watch the attendance at York continue to dwindle.

Your follow up comment is a far, far cry from your initial comment, no wonder.

If that's what you see. "Suum cuique" 

Unofficial attendance numbers for the public at the 2017 York fall meet (taken from anonymous inside sources) is around  600.  That's less than 1% of total York attendance, estimated to be around 9,000.  It would seem that York is not attracting much of the general public and the old school diehards are probably very happy about that . Over the next five years ever changing demographics will have a profound impact on the   meet.  Its only a matter of time before the modus operandi and methodology must really change. Just wait it out and see for yourself. 

Are you using the new math?  I get 6.6% if 600 of them were among the 9000 York attendees.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Are you using the new math?  I get 6.6% if 600 of them were among the 9000 York attendees.

. My error. Too many distractions of late  Yup the public number is as you state  6.6% of the total attendance.  Only the ED can answer if the goal of opening the show to the public was met. ED York  has a reputation of being a long time members only show.  IMO, that perception must be broken before a large number of the general public show up.  The total attendance at York is but a fraction of the number of O gauge model railroaders in the country. Time for the ED to spread its wings.